Food banks.

[Hamster]

41 minutes ago, grrclark said:

So what is the alternative Hamster?

We either have a floating currency, as we do now, or we have a standard backed currency with gold being the acknowledged standard.  Commodity basket standard based currencies cannot work.

So if we are standard backed we only have a finite amount of gold, but we have a rapidly expanding global population so we have wealth erosion by default as we have less gold to go round.  Our currency would be inelastic, yet we live in an elastic world.

There are also some philosophical flaws in your argument quoted, if the money they lend is not actually there, i.e. it is fictitious, then by logic the value of everything associated with that is also fictitious.  The value of the bricks and mortar house is not absolute, beyond the physical quantity of bricks and mortar.  Value is relative to market demand and also the value of the currency which is absolutely a consequence of the amount of invented money in the system, so value is a dynamic construct and not absolute.

The consequence of being kicked out of your house is of course very real, but that is of no relevance to the value of the house or currency or what ratio of capital reserve to lending a bank requires to hold. Whether i have a £10 or £1,000,000 house I cannot sleep in makes no difference.

In all honesty I am not aware of enough different alternatives to give a valid answer, who knows in other words but I bet there are successful European as well as "none broke" others in Asia among other places that have not utilised the "lend fake money and print as you go" Capitalist principals we and America happen to adhere to. In this context successful means not owing trillions  .

I'm not convinced your argument about mounting populations and gold holds, the latter is not yet a finite and plenty more lies in caves waiting to be dug out, you could also always replace it with other precious metals, some may even be better at holding a stable value. We do now know Gaddafi was murdered because he wanted to get African nations to organise their currency under a gold backed system independent of the petro dollar so clearly someone thinks the system is worth killing for. 

I also wholly disagree with : if the money they lent is not actually there, i.e. it is fictitious, then by logic the value of everything associated with that is also fictitious.  The value of the bricks and mortar house is not absolute - - - - -- - fictitious money REALLY isn't there, it is merely the say so of an organisation which in turn has been authorised by another entity (often governments but if you go back far enough it turns out a monarch thought it a splendid idea) but solid objects bought with that ARE very much of actual value, that's the whole point and why the scam works so beautifully. 

If you accept that in principal there is nothing wrong in "imagining" you have a billion to lend or imagining you have a billion to pay soldiers this month, then there is no longer any barrier in your way to apply that logic ad infinitum. I don't believe that's how Russians, China or Iran as examples view monetary subjects. 

This is not a matter of philosophising, it is asking at what point do we wake up and admit we can't pay back money we have printed, what America owes China in bonds is incalculable, do they, will they pay it back or will they chose conflict as the way out. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Hamster

[grrclark]

Without any douby Hamid the monetary system needs rebalancing, but whilst it is easy to say that how it is achieved is a different thing.

Non broke economies, as you describe them, are essentially commodity backed.  So the wealthy oil states rely on oil as a commodity to bring standard reserve foreign currencies onto their balance sheets and therefor can peg their own currencies against them.

Brazil is also commodity backed, but based on different minerals and ores.

The problem with being commodity backed is if there is a shock in that commodity, as an example Venezuela was commodity backed with oil, but had no sovereign wealth fund in reserve currency so when the oil price tanked so did their wealth.

Norway's wealth is largely backed by commodity too, but also the value of their distributed portfolio of government and corporate bonds and stocks in their sovereign wealth fund, however if the capital markets go tits up with a crash in oil price they are stuffed too.

Arguably China are wholly reliant on artificial money markets of their trading partners and if the capital markets go tits up so does China.  Their commidity is cheap labour and favourable balance of trade with the west, their internal markets absolutely suck with monstrous wealth inequality.  They do of course have massive sovereign wealth funds in reserve currencies, but if they are devalued and the markets they sell to become illiquid then so does China. 

The reason that gold works so well is because it is relatively finite and not a hugely variable commodity so is limited from shock, but there isn't enough of it.

The globes big power players don't want to go to war with each other as it is mutually assured destruction, so they will always find ways to adulterate the monetary system to keep the wole shebang running.

The problem we will have is when we have  no massively vested interests, and that includes the worlds ultra financially elite.  So long as we have people from every geopolitical background who can massively influence global policy then self interest will be self regulating.

 

[yod dropper]

1 hour ago, Hamster said:

 ......the "lend fake money and print as you go" Capitalist principals we and America happen to adhere to......

.....We do now know Gaddafi was murdered because he wanted to get African nations to organise their currency under a gold backed system independent of the petro dollar so clearly someone thinks the system is worth killing for..... 

.....fictitious money REALLY isn't there.....

.....If you accept that in principal there is nothing wrong in "imagining" you have a billion to lend or imagining you have a billion to pay soldiers this month, then there is no longer any barrier in your way to apply that logic ad infinitum.....

 

Right, where shall we begin.   I can't really argue against this.  It looks like more internet conspiracy theory.

[12gauge82]

I think this is a very good link on a layman's guide to how banking and money works for anyone interested, frightening stuff really, contains a 20min video https://www.lowimpact.org/money-really-comes-no-longer-fractional-reserve-system-uk/

[henry d]

Peasants with pitchforks...Mongol hordes... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMSB09AJO8s

[ehb102]

There is lots of starvation in the UK (starvation - suffering or death through lack of food). Here's one death that got media coverage:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/disabled-mark-wood-starved-death-3194250

In June 2017 a cross party parliamentary group found that up to 2 million children would be hungry during the summer holidays when they had no school dinners. 

Argue about the rest of it all you want but children ARE going hungry, and people ARE dying from lack of food in the UK, whether you know any personally or not. 

[Wymondley]

31 minutes ago, ehb102 said:

There is lots of starvation in the UK (starvation - suffering or death through lack of food). Here's one death that got media coverage:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/disabled-mark-wood-starved-death-3194250

In June 2017 a cross party parliamentary group found that up to 2 million children would be hungry during the summer holidays when they had no school dinners. 

Argue about the rest of it all you want but children ARE going hungry, and people ARE dying from lack of food in the UK, whether you know any personally or not. 

You may well be right, many kids do go hungry.

Possibly because their feckless parents chose to spend money on other things.

[Hamster]

2 hours ago, ehb102 said:

There is lots of starvation in the UK (starvation - suffering or death through lack of food). Here's one death that got media coverage:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/disabled-mark-wood-starved-death-3194250

In June 2017 a cross party parliamentary group found that up to 2 million children would be hungry during the summer holidays when they had no school dinners. 

Argue about the rest of it all you want but children ARE going hungry, and people ARE dying from lack of food in the UK, whether you know any personally or not. 

Thank you , as always people often don't see problems when it doesn't personally affect them. 

[ehb102]

 

14 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Thank you , as always people often don't see problems when it doesn't personally affect them. 

 

I was taught that if you were strong it was your duty to look out for the weak. If you had enough it was on you to be generous.  That was what being British used to be about. What happened to the Britain I grew up in?  We might have been clueless about lots of things, but we had a good sense about what was right. Now all that anyone seems to care about is not letting someone else get something for free. Small...

[Hamster]

18 minutes ago, ehb102 said:

 

 

I was taught that if you were strong it was your duty to look out for the weak. If you had enough it was on you to be generous.  That was what being British used to be about. What happened to the Britain I grew up in?  We might have been clueless about lots of things, but we had a good sense about what was right. Now all that anyone seems to care about is not letting someone else get something for free. Small...

Exactly, it seems people try and look for an excuse to place blame when what's really needed is simple help. 

[12gauge82]

23 minutes ago, ehb102 said:

 

 

I was taught that if you were strong it was your duty to look out for the weak. If you had enough it was on you to be generous.  That was what being British used to be about. What happened to the Britain I grew up in?  We might have been clueless about lots of things, but we had a good sense about what was right. Now all that anyone seems to care about is not letting someone else get something for free. Small...

Very good post that which strikes a cord with me to, we've lost something as a country and i feel its going to get worse before it gets better, I blame the micro managed nanny state we now live In, all the rights with no responsibility, couple that with no freedom of speech and a PC you must follow the rules for rules sake and the where there's a blame there's a claim nonsense, it's only going to get worse in this faceless society, what chance have the young got, I don't blame them when that's the example set.

[Rewulf]

12 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Very good post that which strikes a cord with me to, we've lost something as a country and i feel its going to get worse before it gets better, I blame the micro managed nanny state we now live In, all the rights with no responsibility, couple that with no freedom of speech and a PC you must follow the rules for rules sake and the where there's a blame there's a claim nonsense, it's only going to get worse in this faceless society, what chance have the young got, I don't blame them when that's the example set.

I agree.
When they are discussing on the radio this morning about one woman who has protested to her daughters school that the play Sleeping Beauty should not be done, because the fictional character did not give consent to be kissed (being asleep !) because it sends the wrong message, then you have to question where we are heading as a society.

The presenters then discussed what other fairy stories and legends could be deemed offensive.
They quoted the Mail as having said that Robin Hood is an issue because his bow wasnt licenced ?!!! and he hadnt had proper health and safety training in its use ?!
I just hope its all a joke.

[Hamster]

This is well worth viewing, watch the first 6 minutes if you can't be bothered to watch all 20 minutes. Trickle down capitalism is fake news, the only way to prosperity is by having a healthy, wealthy middle class. Pitchforks may not happen in my lifetime but some PigeonWatch members will get to see it, guaranteed. 

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by Hamster

[Rewulf]

35 minutes ago, Hamster said:

This is well worth viewing, watch the first 6 minutes if you can't be bothered to watch all 20 minutes. Trickle down capitalism is fake news, the only way to prosperity is by having a healthy, wealthy middle class. Pitchforks may not happen in my lifetime but some PigeonWatch members will get to see it, guaranteed. 

 

Thank you, interesting perspective.

Although I think there will be a move to remove some of the potential pitchfork wielders before they get too leary.

My opinion on the type of driven people who can become like the man in the video, is that most of the time ,they are very focused on the money acquisition part.
And are not usually concerned about the plebs, however the plebs are consumers as he says.
But what about when they cannot afford to consume?

As the population gets older, and automation takes over more and more manual labour, there will be less earners, and more people with little money to consume.
Thats when it will get interesting.

[ehb102]

12 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I agree.
When they are discussing on the radio this morning about one woman who has protested to her daughters school that the play Sleeping Beauty should not be done, because the fictional character did not give consent to be kissed (being asleep !) because it sends the wrong message, then you have to question where we are heading as a society.

The presenters then discussed what other fairy stories and legends could be deemed offensive.
They quoted the Mail as having said that Robin Hood is an issue because his bow wasnt licenced ?!!! and he hadnt had proper health and safety training in its use ?!
I just hope its all a joke.

It's not a joke. Given the whining that men have been doing in the last few months about the supposed "grey area" between expressing respectful appreciation and sexual interest in a  woman and sexual harassment and assault, we obviously need to stop sending young men mixed messages about consent. Kissing someone you have never met when they are asleep is not on. Women are not objects and men do not know what women want better than they do themselves. 

The fuller story should.you care to read it is here: https://www.the-pool.com/news-views/opinion/2017/47/Lily-Peschardt-on-what-fairy-tales-are-teaching-our-kids. It makes the very good point that the original story Sleeping Beauty was raped in her sleep. We updated and change our fairy tales to make them suit our times.

[old man]

On 14/11/2017 at 19:51, Wymondley said:

It's question of priorities.

From my own casual observations it, appears having the latest phone is more important than feeding your family.

?

[Rewulf]

On 11/24/2017 at 23:19, ehb102 said:

It's not a joke. Given the whining that men have been doing in the last few months about the supposed "grey area" between expressing respectful appreciation and sexual interest in a  woman and sexual harassment and assault, we obviously need to stop sending young men mixed messages about consent. Kissing someone you have never met when they are asleep is not on. Women are not objects and men do not know what women want better than they do themselves. 

The fuller story should.you care to read it is here: https://www.the-pool.com/news-views/opinion/2017/47/Lily-Peschardt-on-what-fairy-tales-are-teaching-our-kids. It makes the very good point that the original story Sleeping Beauty was raped in her sleep. We updated and change our fairy tales to make them suit our times.

Ive given myself a few days to think about this ,and whether to respond to it, the fact that its so far off topic was also a factor.
But I cant help myself.

Are you seriously saying that fairy stories are a factor in male attitudes to women in the present day?
When violent tv programs, video games,social media and an internet full of porn of various types are in much abundance, never mind the fact that you cant walk down the street without being bombarded with advertising with` all manner of sexual stereotypes, you think a legitimate target for your offence gland is sleeping beauty , because she gets a kiss when shes been in a coma for 100 years and everyone has died or forgotten about her !
Talk about taking things out of context.
Besides the fact that someone says its based on a story of rape and murder, which has got absolutely nothing to do with this story at all, because no one has ever heard of this 'original' story.
You could say that Finding nemo is based on Jaws, or Cinderella is based on Sleeping with the enemy if you like.

Im offended that youre offended!

Im whilst were doing this

On 11/23/2017 at 19:15, ehb102 said:

There is lots of starvation in the UK (starvation - suffering or death through lack of food). Here's one death that got media coverage:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/disabled-mark-wood-starved-death-3194250

In June 2017 a cross party parliamentary group found that up to 2 million children would be hungry during the summer holidays when they had no school dinners. 

Argue about the rest of it all you want but children ARE going hungry, and people ARE dying from lack of food in the UK, whether you know any personally or not. 

No there isnt, the example you gave, the man was severely mentally ill.
He chose, due to his state of mind, not to eat, as do people with anorexia.
And again, yes people go hungry, but starvation is virtually unknown in this country.
 

[henry d]

Just had this come up from facebook from 4 years ago, perhaps it puts things into perspective for those who think that it is about "scroungers" taking and there is not a need out there...

Quote

Spent time yesterday at a foodbank and the most striking thing there was not the generosity of the people or organisations doing the giving, but one person who was receiving the food. He looked in the bags and took out some dried pasta and tinned tomatoes and took them back saying "I already have these at home can you give them to someone who needs them please."

 

[Rewulf]

22 minutes ago, henry d said:

Just had this come up from facebook from 4 years ago, perhaps it puts things into perspective for those who think that it is about "scroungers" taking and there is not a need out there...

 

With respect , I dont think anyone was implying they were all scroungers.

[Penelope]

19 minutes ago, motty said:

Wow! How Sleeping Beauty can really be of any concern to anyone is worrying!

Motty, the 'Offence Industry' is frightening.

 

What is funny though is when two of the 'Offence Industries' biggest protagonists, Trans Gender and Women's Rights butt heads over the Mayor of London's drive to make many of London's public toilets gender neutral. Who has 'Top Trumps'?

Edited November 29, 2017 by Penelope

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, Penelope said:

Motty, the 'Offence Industry' is frightening.

 

What is funny though is when two of the 'Offence Industries' biggest protagonists, Trans Gender and Women's Rights butt heads over the Mayor of London's drive to make many of London's public toilets gender neutral. Who has 'Top Trumps'?

Yes very amusing, or it would be if it wasn't so serious, just where this PC, "I'm offended so everyone must stop what they're doing" culture is going to end is anyone's guess!

[ehb102]

The PC culture ends for everyone when they get affected. Or when someone they love gets affected. Or when they finally realise how it's been affecting them. Until then, people sit on the privilege and think it's all someone else's problem.. 

As someone said about climate change: The facts are the facts, whether you believe them or not. 

[Rewulf]

21 minutes ago, ehb102 said:

The PC culture ends for everyone when they get affected. Or when someone they love gets affected. Or when they finally realise how it's been affecting them. Until then, people sit on the privilege and think it's all someone else's problem.. 

As someone said about climate change: The facts are the facts, whether you believe them or not. 

Do you mean if you are the minority ?
So if there is a room of 10 people working,and 9 say they are cold.
But one says they are already too hot, should the 9 stay cold ?
But the 1 then complains to HR that they are a victim.
The heating is duly turned up....

Climate change ? Facts ? Evidence ?
Remember it used to be called global warming?
So how much has the global mean temperature gone up by in the last 140 years, and how high has the sea level risen in the same time period ?
Google it.

[ehb102]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Do you mean if you are the minority ?
So if there is a room of 10 people working,and 9 say they are cold.
But one says they are already too hot, should the 9 stay cold ?
But the 1 then complains to HR that they are a victim.
The heating is duly turned up....

Climate change ? Facts ? Evidence ?
Remember it used to be called global warming?
So how much has the global mean temperature gone up by in the last 140 years, and how high has the sea level risen in the same time period ?
Google it.

 

I actually don't mean about numeric minorities, nor can you draw a direct comparison between a single fact of a single incident such as your temperature variable example and a complex social issue like the status of women in Society. I simply refer to people are more educated and widely knowledgeable about a set of issues than another. For example, doesn't everyone here get very fed up with the "be nice to animals" brigade and the "don't kill it, that's cruel" chorus? Such people who say those things are working from their own facts, they don't have to actually look at the examples and the applications, or even real applications of the principle, but you can bet your bottom dollar that they would change their tune if they had to work on the land and survive from it for a year or two. How fluffy are bunnies when they've eaten the results of your backbreaking work? As an example, take homophobia. Some people can't accept that saying "that's so gay" as a synonym for "that's something bad" is a problem, in fact, they think it's their goddamn right to say that, but I bet that would change if they had a gay child who hated themselves to the point of mental health problems because of all the homophobic input they had, which included saying "that's so gay."  Suddenly it's not one tiny little thing that doesn't matter, it's part of a flock of hundreds of tiny little things that all matter. Where do you start? You start with what matters to you.

 

[jam1e]

I worked for the public services for around 16 odd years. I saw many UK born families in what appeared to be desperate need. But with the Social Services budget being so small, (unless you're not from the UK...) And YES i saw it first hand how Immigrants get a better service than UK born people/families in so called "need". This was from us taking them out of the back of Lorry driver's trailers. (They weren't fined then so many be it's better now??...And as has been said, no money for food. But enough for the latest phone!! Some of you folks must have seen this months ago when so "children"  arrived in the UK!?  Clearly way over 20 tears of age... And that's being conservative ....

If i'm to be non bias, l'd have to say some of the low life were UK born.. Buying stolen phones from drug addicts. Stolen and bought withing an hour, (If that!) sold to folks on said crime ridden social housing estates....

It takes more than the naked eye to see who really needs it....

Having said that, when arresting numerous immigrants (around 10) in a particular 6 months or so. Granted, not a large percentage in 6 months out of "white" folks. But most would spout out about how pathetic our country is! One low life even described our country as a "joke".  He said "We ask, we get".  Very demoralizing.... I allowed him to get under my skin (which was wrong of me) so I told this gob **** immigrant,  to  **** off  back to where he was from! 

My college told me to wind it, in case he complained. Which i did begrudgingly, but only as i knew i wound be found guilty and sacked, regardless of evidence, or even lack of evidence..

Slightly off at a tangent, But when I visited me doctors several several months ago. (A rare occasion to even get one!!) around half the patients were not speaking English, or had a very strong foreign accent.

When i got chance to speak to a friend of mine in private who works there. She admitted the Doctors just can't cope with all the added pressure of large numbers of immigrants in the UK at this time... 

I know some liberals will disagree will me, but i'm just stating facts....