Ultrastu Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 So recently my pal and I tested our .410s for maximum range (something we always do with a new gun and calibre .) Having tested our 20bs with different carts in no5 and no6 .we found max range was about 250 yds on a still day Last week we found our .410s shooting "full speed " no6 carts ,would drop around 175 yds 200 yds as a maximum . Would anybody like to offer an explanation as to why a .410 cart with 1350 fps on the box makes 200 yds but a 20b with 1350 on the box makes 250 yds ? All in no6 I have my own theories but would like to hear some more opinions first. If possible cheers. Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haynes Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 Hmm. Interesting. Can only think that as in a skein of geese the front few break the air for those behind. More pellets in a 12 or 20 bore to break the air? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted January 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 That is a good point and exactly the theory my mate offered . It has a lot of merit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) Interesting. Was this shooting over water by any chance? Otherwise how did you judge the distance? Just interested. Was the barrel horizontal or elevated? I have shot a 12 gauge over water and the pellets don't all fall in one heap either but in a long string unless fired directly vertical to the water surface. That begs the question, when does the velocity fall off? Would penetration tests at 25...50...70 yrds reveal anything? Edited January 13, 2018 by Walker570 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshie Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 Is it because on leaving the barrel the shot are all together like a slug therefore the 20b might have the same muzzle velocity, but a lot more muzzle energy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted January 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 We tested over a large wet puddled field and yes the shot does land in a long string .the barrels were increasingly elevated till max range was estimated .around 20 degree . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.5x55SE Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) 50 minutes ago, haynes said: Hmm. Interesting. Can only think that as in a skein of geese the front few break the air for those behind. More pellets in a 12 or 20 bore to break the air? That about Geese is a Myth Just the same as Never shoot the front 2 Geese as these are Adults so useless to eat as they are Tough Edited January 13, 2018 by 6.5x55SE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, 6.5x55SE said: That about Geese is a Myth So, how can you confirm that and if that is not the reason they fly in formation, what is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 My first ports of call would be to measure actual shot size and actual velocity. That is probably where the discrepancy comes in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haynes Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 Cyclists and motor sports all slipstream. Shot would do this to a greater or lesser degree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted January 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 Just to add to the mix . If you can get a no6 pellet to 250 yds from a muzzle speed of 1350 fps .to have it drop at 200 yds with the same average bc .then the velocity has to drop to around 700 fps . Clearly there isnt that much a difference in muzzle velocity between the cals . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saltings Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 did you fire the gun at exactly the same angle upwards I think the sweet spot for distance is about 22 degrees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.5x55SE Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Walker570 said: So, how can you confirm that and if that is not the reason they fly in formation, what is? Years of experience along with watching David Attenborough programs. Also Geese will regularly fly in ragged Bunches , side by side ( a straight line ) , one leg of a V , straight line Bill to Tail and the reason to get from A to B 1 hour ago, motty said: My first ports of call would be to measure actual shot size and actual velocity. That is probably where the discrepancy comes in. Edited January 13, 2018 by 6.5x55SE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted January 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 18 minutes ago, Saltings said: did you fire the gun at exactly the same angle upwards I think the sweet spot for distance is about 22 degrees That depends massively on the bc of the projectile . The higher the bc .the greater the angle of elevation for max range .a low bc of a shotgun pellet requires a lower angle usually around 18 degree as opposed to 30 degree for a heavy bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamSouthEast Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 I'm guessing this is down to different barrel lengths. Longer barrel = higher velocity. The velocity out of the box will be a standardised reading from a particular barrel length. I'd bet by bottom dollar that if you chrono them out of the barrel that one is coming out at a higher vel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultrastu Posted January 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 But if you take say a 28 inch barrel and a 32 inch barrel and compare Them the 32 should have a higher velocity but usually in the region of around 100 fps for that 4 inch difference. Which makes according to chairgun about a 5 yds average distance .So not the 50 yds difference I'm experiencing . Ps a bc change can make the difference in range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AYA117 Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 Geese fly in a V because it looks really cool !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 Changes in wind direction etc also rarely to cartridges do the speeds on the box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 29 minutes ago, Ultrastu said: But if you take say a 28 inch barrel and a 32 inch barrel and compare Them the 32 should have a higher velocity but usually in the region of around 100 fps for that 4 inch difference. Which makes according to chairgun about a 5 yds average distance .So not the 50 yds difference I'm experiencing . Ps a bc change can make the difference in range Velocities should be the same for any given barrel length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.5x55SE Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 22 minutes ago, AYA117 said: Geese fly in a V because it looks really cool !!! Or a " W " or better still folding after getting hit by a load of Shot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 We're just guessing as we often do with animals and birds. We think ourselves so smart but have yet to be able to ask them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6.5x55SE Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 57 minutes ago, Walker570 said: We're just guessing as we often do with animals and birds. We think ourselves so smart but have yet to be able to ask them Really. Well Attenborough studied Wildlife and gave the answers NOT me. Anyway how come other Migratory Birds don't fly in a V !!!!!! I've never seen a V of Swallows Starlings Pigeons etc and those can fly at High altitude and very long distance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnphilip Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 1 hour ago, 6.5x55SE said: Really. Well Attenborough studied Wildlife and gave the answers NOT me. Anyway how come other Migratory Birds don't fly in a V !!!!!! I've never seen a V of Swallows Starlings Pigeons etc and those can fly at High altitude and very long distance Maybe its due to there size ,they need to form this style so they can see were they are going . As with driving a car , and wanting to over take some thing bigger infront of you , you have to move out a little to see whats ahead . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 11 hours ago, AYA117 said: Geese fly in a V because it looks really cool !!! Like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamSouthEast Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 10 hours ago, motty said: Velocities should be the same for any given barrel length. The longer a projectile is in the barrel under pressure the higher the velocity of said projectile; this is obviously subject to diminishing returns, so between say 30 and 32 inches, sure there may be a tiny difference, but make those differences larger and it will become much more noticeable. Check out this guy's masters paper below. He chopped 2 inches off his Mosin Nagant and did several chronos at each length. http://honors.usf.edu/documents/thesis/u82488180.pdf tl;dr: Graph below Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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