Walker570 Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 4 hours ago, JDog said: What did you expect going to the Americans for information? DO NOT EVER get into a forum conversation in the USA about rifle calibres, reloading said calibers etc. Most of them in their total lives have never shot as many deer as I did last year, but they will analyse the angles of shot and performace of said bullet, when any of the modern bullets and many of the older ones will do the job if you just slip it in that little dimple above the animals 'elbow' having patiently waited a while to have it stand right. Plenty of good ol' metalsmiths in this country who will advise with not bovine exrement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 3 hours ago, ditchman said: thank you for that answer................i had been looking for that for 2 days...............the reason i asked about the water bit was i had seen it a couple of times on various webs ....and like you i couldnt understand what the rational was behind it..............its all very well saying "this is what i do"..............but i want to know WHY................. i can also understand when WALKER like to roll his blade edge in oil when coming ot of the temper oven the tempering i can understand now...as the temper (low temp) is in effect like unwinding an elastic band a little bit before it snaps...(in the hardened state) am i right correct will post some more pics up in a while...as i've been cleaning up the casting........................prior to spraying up........... When I first started as toolmaker (1965) the forman would tell you the process of heat treatment, then give you some old bits of tool steel, you then had to learn heat treatment the old way first by hardening in an open hearth feed with a gas torch and compressed air, after getting the steel to what you thought was the correct tempter you would then plunge it into a barrel of whale oil and constantly move it about to stop the oil from boiling which would course soft spots, once hardened and cool you would polish the steel so it was bright, you would then put a lump of mild steel into the hearth and get that a cherry red, once this was achieved you would remove it from the hearth and place your hardened steel on the mild steel block (the block needed to be 3 times bigger than the piece you were tempering) at this point you watch it very carefully for colour change, light/dark straw, dark brown, brown/blue, and blue/white, depending on what the hardened steel was used for he would ask you to take it to a colour that would work best on three types of tooling, blanking dies (light straw) raising dies (dark brown) Jigs and fixtures (dark brown/blue) he would also be looking for burn on the steel surface (you got it to hot) once you had mastered the old way you were allowed to move on to electric furnace hardening and tempering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted February 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 30 minutes ago, old'un said: When I first started as toolmaker (1965) the forman would tell you the process of heat treatment, then give you some old bits of tool steel, you then had to learn heat treatment the old way first by hardening in an open hearth feed with a gas torch and compressed air, after getting the steel to what you thought was the correct tempter you would then plunge it into a barrel of whale oil and constantly move it about to stop the oil from boiling which would course soft spots, once hardened and cool you would polish the steel so it was bright, you would then put a lump of mild steel into the hearth and get that a cherry red, once this was achieved you would remove it from the hearth and place your hardened steel on the mild steel block (the block needed to be 3 times bigger than the piece you were tempering) at this point you watch it very carefully for colour change, light/dark straw, dark brown, brown/blue, and blue/white, depending on what the hardened steel was used for he would ask you to take it to a colour that would work best on three types of tooling, blanking dies (light straw) raising dies (dark brown) Jigs and fixtures (dark brown/blue) he would also be looking for burn on the steel surface (you got it to hot) once you had mastered the old way you were allowed to move on to electric furnace hardening and tempering. that is excactly the way i want to do it...i have a peice of plate ready for that..............i will also try the oven with a few polished "coupon" plates...to see if the colurs can be kept stable and corrulate to the temp setting...if i can do that i will go for a longer more stable temper...and proberly try it 3 times/piece........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted February 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 Thats yer lot for today folks............im cold and need refreshment...the casting is next to the woodburner, and i will pick the writing out tomorrow, with some paint VILKING sent me...shame he has gone as he was very generous....... bearings ordered up pick them up on thrursday ...will make a small screw press to fit them....not hitting the casting with my wooden 'ammer any more.....and friday i will be off to Lowestoft to pay for the milled table raiser............. talk amongst yer selves now..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 Very nice tidy job. It will look like new when re assembled. There you go I told you there some good ol' boys in the UK who could advise....even better from the Black Country. What that area doesn't know about fettling stuff ain't worth a light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 Looking forward to the next instalment already! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted February 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 7 minutes ago, Walker570 said: Very nice tidy job. It will look like new when re assembled. There you go I told you there some good ol' boys in the UK who could advise....even better from the Black Country. What that area doesn't know about fettling stuff ain't worth a light. ..fettlers an' tinkers and pot menders....thats wot we is................ 6 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Looking forward to the next instalment already! gort yer juices a flowin' ole partner... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 Oh yes, walker 570 is coming over tomorrow with my knives, things are looking good at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted February 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 im thinking in the future now...........im going to have a word with my mate in Brundall to see if he can get hold of an old scrapper twelve bore wiv damascus barrells and walnut stock... i will cut up part of the barrells into 2 coupon plates and inbetween lay a peice of toolsteel and forge them together...then cut out a decent peice of walnut for the ole handle sides.... if the barrell steel can be made to melt at the same temp' as the tool steel we might be on a winner.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 This might give you a guide when heat treating your blades. Tempering Temperature Rockwell Hardness oC oF HRC 149 300 65 177 350 64-65 204 400 62-63 232 450 60-61 260 500 59-60 288 550 57-58 316 600 55-57 343 650 54-55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 51 minutes ago, ditchman said: im thinking in the future now...........im going to have a word with my mate in Brundall to see if he can get hold of an old scrapper twelve bore wiv damascus barrells and walnut stock... i will cut up part of the barrells into 2 coupon plates and inbetween lay a peice of toolsteel and forge them together...then cut out a decent peice of walnut for the ole handle sides.... if the barrell steel can be made to melt at the same temp' as the tool steel we might be on a winner.... Try Mick (Wabbitbosher) I can collect and bring it over if he has something suitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted February 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 old'n................have seen that chart and colur rail but that is the best version so far...cheers.. 28 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Try Mick (Wabbitbosher) I can collect and bring it over if he has something suitable. let me get a few knives out first...i need to do some research first then we will give it a try.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 Okay, happy to assist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 Old 16 gauge barrel cut and flattened at the chamber end produce this knife. Sharp as a razor. Laying such either side of a piece of tool steel as you suggest is an interesting idea. Worth a try. Don't the Japs do that sort of thing ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 1 minute ago, Walker570 said: Old 16 gauge barrel cut and flattened at the chamber end produce this knife. Sharp as a razor. Laying such either side of a piece of tool steel as you suggest is an interesting idea. Worth a try. Don't the Japs do that sort of thing ? Yes, the samurai swords use a combination of steels to get sharpness and flexibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7daysinaweek Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 Looking far better that now with the paint jobby. atb 7diaw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Yes, the samurai swords use a combination of steels to get sharpness and flexibility. Are you sure ? Or do they fold a block of steel many times creating the layers think back in time to when the best swords were made and ask where did they get the different steel from all the best of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 21 minutes ago, Old farrier said: Are you sure ? Or do they fold a block of steel many times creating the layers think back in time to when the best swords were made and ask where did they get the different steel from all the best of I do believe you're right, they add carbon between the layers by bashing it out on a timber block so I was lead to believe, I could be wrong though, it wouldn't be the first time. anyone here remember fieldcrafter? he made me a lovely tanto in 01 tool steel from a piece of round bar, shame he packed it all in. back on topic, that's some work in progress mr D, proper job... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 (edited) A great youtube video The Secret World of the Japanese Swordmakers, shows how they wrap a harder centre with a softer multi layered steel. Well worth a watch. Edited February 6, 2018 by Walker570 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 47 minutes ago, Old farrier said: Are you sure ? Or do they fold a block of steel many times creating the layers think back in time to when the best swords were made and ask where did they get the different steel from all the best of Oh there is a fair amount of folding, but in traditional Japanese sword making, the low-carbon iron is folded several times by itself, to purify it. This produces the soft metal to be used for the core of the blade. The high-carbon steel and the higher-carbon cast-iron are then forged in alternating layers. The cast-iron is heated, quenched in water, and then broken into small pieces to help free it from slag. The steel is then forged into a single plate, and the pieces of cast-iron are piled on top, and the whole thing is forge welded into a single billet, which is called the age-kitae process. The billet is then elongated, cut, folded, and forge welded again. The steel can be folded transversely, (from front to back), or longitudinally, (from side to side). Often both folding directions are used to produce the desired grain pattern. This process, called the ****a-kitae, is repeated from 8 to as many as 16 times. After 20 foldings, (220, or about a million individual layers), there is too much diffusion in the carbon content. The steel becomes almost homogeneous in this respect, and the act of folding no longer gives any benefit to the steel. Depending on the amount of carbon introduced, this process forms either the very hard steel for the edge (hagane), or the slightly less hardenable spring steel (kawagane) which is often used for the sides and the back.[7] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted February 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 this knife making thing is moving toooo damn quick....................as you know i get my fish and chips on a tuesday.....so up i goes parks outside the chippy...and next door to the chippy is the gunshop..........and the door is open and the ligts are on.............he is taking a delivery of guns...so he shouts and waves...so i go in to say hi...so we are having a quick chat and i ask him if he has any old damascus barrelled scrappers..............yes he says i have a twelve sxs...do you want it...i said can youcut the barrell and the stock...sure he says but i will have to keep the action no probs...so i tell him what it is for and he says drop round in a couple of days and i will cut it and you can have it............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 Wonderful, these things are meant to happen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 11 hours ago, ditchman said: well me being stupid...i visited this american site again..!!...........every time i ask a question on there...i get such a complicated answer...stuff about what is happening at the atomic level and graphs etc...never an answer to my question........... sooo i thought i would make it more interesting ...i added 15 pictures of what i was doing ...the strip down of the linisher etc...just so i could make the connection between...the tool steel and the knife bit making of. then i went back about 4 hours later............and alll the photos had been deleted...and some more totally incomprehensible rubbish ....it was like being in some NASA lecture theatre on a lecture about alien metals and uses from the planet Zog............ soo i had another look around on some of the other related topics.......every single section was virtually devoid of pics...but full of what looked like textbook answers............ and the conclusion i have come to is....they are the biggest Walter Mitty Bullpoopers on the planet................so i have been going to sales websites of knife makers and the answers im getting there are factual....believable....and practical to follow.......... if i would have followed the advice on the other USA bladesmithing forum....i would need $20.000 dollars of equipment just for heat treating alone........ god what a bunch of muppets eh There you go ditch. The yankees talk a good game but are low on delivery. Loving what you're up to. 19 minutes ago, ditchman said: this knife making thing is moving toooo damn quick....................as you know i get my fish and chips on a tuesday.....so up i goes parks outside the chippy...and next door to the chippy is the gunshop..........and the door is open and the ligts are on.............he is taking a delivery of guns...so he shouts and waves...so i go in to say hi...so we are having a quick chat and i ask him if he has any old damascus barrelled scrappers..............yes he says i have a twelve sxs...do you want it...i said can youcut the barrell and the stock...sure he says but i will have to keep the action no probs...so i tell him what it is for and he says drop round in a couple of days and i will cut it and you can have it............ Nice.They're good ol' buoys in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel b3 Posted February 6, 2018 Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 4 hours ago, old'un said: This might give you a guide when heat treating your blades. Tempering Temperature Rockwell Hardness oC oF HRC 149 300 65 177 350 64-65 204 400 62-63 232 450 60-61 260 500 59-60 288 550 57-58 316 600 55-57 343 650 54-55 absolutely excellent . ive been intending to built myself a forge , and make a few knives for a while now , the colour chart is just what ive been waiting to find Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted February 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2018 (edited) Nige.....did you get your rifle spares from him............? Edited February 6, 2018 by ditchman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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