Side by Side Club

[JJsDad]

Off the subject of SBSs for a moment, a number of you will have probably seen the `Hushpower` brigade and the guys with `Singles` are all trying to get themselves under a "Club" heading !

I was idly browsing down the lists yesterday and saw someone asking about the `Caesar Guerini Forum`; my initial reaction was; heaven help us, we will have a Club or a Forum for every type of gun going if this comes off. Only when I opened it, I realised its a model of gun. How embarassing is that !

[JJsDad]

On 27/04/2018 at 07:43, AYA117 said:

Yes I believe they were, but I think the new AYA hammer gun is £24,000 !

Just for amusement purposes, have a look at the second picture down from the top of the delightful AYA anniversary  hammer gun illustrated in the link below, and see if you can spot the deliberate mistake !!

http://www.aya-fineguns.com/product/aya-anniversary-2/

 

[Robertt]

That a fairly basic QC issue ?

That's why I'm sticking to my No 4.

[panoma1]

1 hour ago, JJsDad said:

Just for amusement purposes, have a look at the second picture down from the top of the delightful AYA anniversary  hammer gun illustrated in the link below, and see if you can spot the deliberate mistake !!

http://www.aya-fineguns.com/product/aya-anniversary-2/

 

2nd picture.....No strikers!

[AYA117]

Saves on cartridges and barrel wear or maybe they are an optional  extra 

[JJsDad]

Well spotted. I did scroll down the list of technical features to see if they were provided as optional extra`s.

1 hour ago, Robertt said:

That a fairly basic QC issue ?

 

24 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

2nd picture.....No strikers!

 

[AYA117]

Hope you all find this as interesting as I did !

 

[AYA117]

And how to dismantle your sidelock, there is also how to reassemble  and the same for the boxlock!

 

[Salopian]

Good old uncle Jack , sadly passed over last year.

 

[AYA117]

I did not know that he had passed away, did you know him?

 

Edited April 29, 2018 by AYA117

[JJsDad]

Where Does It Shoot Pt 1

I happened to be looking at the cracking photo`s on Page 11 posted by `FatFreddysCat` the other day, with the dog, gun and results of a sucessful flight. Had a little smile to myself and thought, great photo, been there, done that, covered in mud and soaked to the skin. Then drove home with my dear old Springer, now long departed, stinking the car out all the way home from having been floundering around retrieving a wing tipped duck.

So a little tale going back to my wildfowling exploits on the Medway estuary. Probably split this into 2 parts, to try to prevent readers dozing off !

When I joined KWA, I needed a `proper` ducking gun rather than spoil my AYA No 2 and persuaded her in-doors to authorise buying a secondhand AYA No 3 magnum. I cannot remember the exact price circa 1980, but a figure of around £90 rings a bell. This lived up to all my expectations and accounted for its fair share of duck. However, it was by the nature of it a bit of a `plain-jane` and whenever I was at the Game Fair or my local shop, I was always scanning the racks for that `special one` that not only looks good but improves the hit ratio by at least 50%.

About 2 years elapsed and I was shopping for more cartridges, when my local dealer said: (as they do);  "Got something right up your street, just come in on a part exchange".

Having drooled over his offering a deal was struck, the old magnum changed hands and I proudly came away with a William Powell boxlock non-ejector. It had a very well figured stock, 30 in. barrels, a flat file cut rib and was choked at half & full. It had started off life with 2.75in chambers but these had been extended by some previous owner to 3in. and it had been re-proofed for 1 7/8oz load.

As is often the way with a new gun, I shot well with it albeit missed the odd Teal as it weighed around 7lb 6oz and took a bit of time to get the barrels going. My normal cartridge in those days for ducking was  either the Eley 2 3/4 magnums or Eley 3in magums depending how much cash I had spare.

An interesting feature was that the right barrel was engraved (not stamped) "Made for Donald McIntosh - Australia". Intrigue got the better of me, so I wrote to Powells who were at that stage still at Carrs Lane, Birmingham and asked if they could shed any light on this. They in due course, without charge, kindly wrote back to tell me the gun had been supplied in 1944 to McIntosh as a live pigeon gun and had left them with full choke in both barrels.

It was a happy partnership with this gun, but I suppose in common with others, particularly with wildfowling, I was always looking to extend the reach of the old girl.

I was therefore started on a very slippery slope, when my dealer friend, who was also a dedicated wildfowler slapped a box of Reminton 3in. magnums on the counter and declared that these are the "nuts", get a box of these and you will never buy Eley`s again !  These imports had a high brass base and were loaded with an impressive 1 7/8oz of 4 shot. I nearly fainted at the price, which was at least £5 more than a box of Eley 3in with a 1 5/8oz (46 gram) load.

Armed with these high velocity super magnums, I was convinced I would struggle to get back to the car with the number of duck that would be bound to get.

However, my expectations were rudely shattered. After using about half the box I dont recall having a single duck to show for all the lead I was putting into the air. When I resorted back to my Eley Alphamax or 3in magnums however, my form returned and we picked up a few duck. Go back to the mighty Remingtons and I might as well have shut both eyes and shot at the sound as ducks flew overhead.

Something was disastrously wrong. I will reveal what after taking the dogs out !

Edited April 29, 2018 by JJsDad

[Old Boggy]

Come on JJsDad, don`t leave us in suspense !!

[AYA117]

Good post as always ! I am sure the dogs only need a short walk and then we can get the second part.

[JJsDad]

30 minutes ago, AYA117 said:

I am sure the dogs only need a short walk

You have evidently not owned Springers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AYA117]

1 minute ago, JJsDad said:

You have evidently not owned Springers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No! Labradors and Flatcoats for that reason. You can work a springer all day and it will still want a walk! My present Flatcoat as with all the afore mentioned will sleep on the way home. Enjoy your walk

[DUNKS]

Early days of course but wouldn't it be nice to have a side by side and black powder day somewhere. A meet of people who appreciate guns who's barrels are the correct way round.

I can suggest a clay ground which would put on such a day. Sympathetic to  black powder and with an excellent restaurant. I know some folk would have to travel quite a distance but I would for such a day. Some of the many shooters watching these threads but not posting might fancy a looksee at Side by sides. Even a possibility shoot some fine guns.

As I say early days but bear it in mind lads and ladesses 

Clay ground I would suggest is LAKESIDE FISHING AND SHOOTING. Wymeswold.. Leics Fairly central although many of you have not put a location  on your sig.

Edited April 29, 2018 by DUNKS

[wymberley]

On 19/04/2018 at 12:34, wymberley said:

After having various AyAs and then a couple of Churchill 25s which I found to be far too small in the hand, I finally settled on this 1964 XXV from AyA.

This one by Chas Osborne from 189? is currently on the UK Gun Repair's For Sale rack.

Well, having seen the Webley and Scott 700 and although it was a very hard decision to make, it's made. The top gun witll be joining the bottom one.

[buze]

I got a story too!

My wife's grandad was a 'nerd'. He likes 'tech' of the days, and he liked his toys too. He was a pretty affluent industrialist from Sheffield, and basically had the man toys of the days. Nice cameras, nice cars, nice guns etc.

Anyway, in around  ~1928 he ordered a gun for himself -- with a twist. He sent an ingot of his own steel (he owned a few industries in sheffield back then, and was very proud of the steel they made) to Birmingham, and ordered himself a gun made with it.

..... then he lost interest; war etc happened, they he grew too old. They eventually went to pick the gun in mid 1960's with my wife's (future) dad, and the gun was put in a cabinet, and was never shot. Gun was way too short for Dad (grandad was quite short guy)

Fast forward to last year, when my wife's dad gave us his guns... the Shieffied gun went to my wife off course, and we discovered a /perfectly/ fitting gun ... like, almost custom made....

So it's how she inherited a brand new gun from 1928's. We can guarantee it was never shot before outside the gunsmith's -- it still had the gunsmith 'marks' on the face. 

The gun itself is identical to a Thomas Wild action, so they must be related -- it's not a 'posh' gun -- the wood is a bit plain, but the action is lovely, ....and...  it's branded on the barrels as "E.Walker, Sheffield" -- grandad's name.

My wife now shoot that on game -- last year we celebrated the first pheasant she brought down with it, and we gave a toast to grandad's name.

 

[farmer7]

That looks beautiful! Quite a story. I would have been torn as to whether to shoot it or not!! 

[Blackpowder]

Great story there buze what a fantastic bit of history for that gun.

 

Blackpowder

[AYA117]

3 hours ago, buze said:

Anyway, in around  ~1928 he ordered a gun for himself

Lucky you! A 90 year old brand new gun and very good looking.

7 hours ago, JJsDad said:

Something was disastrously wrong. I will reveal what after taking the dogs out !

And ?

[DUNKS]

Now that's very very nice. Ought to be shot.

But I don't think I would!

[JJsDad]

Where does it shoot Pt 2

For those who followed my rambling little story from earlier today. I will, if you are sitting comfortably continue.

Looking back now to the period of several weeks that covered this discovery, a logical person would have taken these super Remington cartridges and thrown them into the Thames and gone back to my normal Eley loads. However, logic didnt come into it, as I had paid an eye watering ammount for 2 box`s and had been assured by my dealer friend that these were virtually assured to kill a Greylag stone dead at 75 yards. So reverting to Eley`s was not an option.

My suspicions about my poor results centred about the degree of choke in the Powell and I was contemplating getting the chokes opened up. But what caused a nagging doubt was why my previous Eley loads seemed to do the business, providing I shot straight. So in one of those `light-bulb` moments I decided to pattern the gun at 40 yrds to see if that confirmed my suspicion that the Remingtons were producing super full choke patterns. I duly carried out a pattern test as defined by that great writer of all things to do with shotguns, the late G T Garwood, or Goff Thomas as he was universally known. At great expence and a resulting sore shoulder, I shot 5 Eley Alphamax (1 1/4 oz shot) through each barrel, changing the pattern sheets after each shot, and then repeated this labourious procedure using Eley 3in (1 5/8oz) and finally the Remingtons (1 7/8oz). I recall driving home afterwards having a bit of a throbbing head, as the old lady tended to be a bit lively with the Remingtons.

I duly estimated the centre of the pattern by eye, marked it and drew a 30in circle around this point. I then started checking the pellet count and voids within the circle. However, the problem was starting to become clear once I had marked the MPI and drawn a 30 in circle.

The MPI of all the Alphamax loads was spot-on for line, and averaged good and consistent half choke and full choke patterns about 4 to 6 in above the point of aim (POA).

The Eley 3in magnums were all worringly low, at around 6 or 7in below and slightly right of the POA.

The Remingtons were nothing short of an expensive disaster. The average MPI for both barrels was around 12in. to 14in. below the POA and off the top of my head around 5in to 6in off line to the right.

Having digested this mini disaster, the old grey matter was questioning why. While pondering this, I remembered seeing an article on accuracy in one of Goff Thomas books that I had skipped over when I initially read the book, as it had no relevance at the time. Having dug out the book in question and read his very erudite explanation, the awful displacement of the MPI from the aiming point started to become clear. The old Powell had been built and originally proofed for 1 1/4 oz shot and as is often common with English guns, was fairly slim in the hand. While its intended diet of 1 1/4oz shot (max) shot to the point of aim, the stock was flexing at the hand under recoil, depressing the muzzle(s) and the sideways flex due to the degree of cast was pushing the pattern off to the right. This tendency not to shoot to the point of aim with heavy loads is even more pronounced in a gun cast for central vision, and can make a gun with a cross eyed stock wildly inaccurate. 

Having a gun that shoots 12 or so inchs low at 40 yards is bad enough in daylight; in the dark the instinctive shot at a fleeting target becomes impossible. The Remingtons were causing the problem, and had to go. While I gave away 1 box to a shooting friend for his `gangster-auto` the remenants of the first box are still in my cabinet. They are now about 38 years old, but if anyone wants the handfull I have left, they are welcome. My shooting colleague assured me at the time that they threw the breech open on his auto in a very impressive manner !

Due to a move of jobs I had to move home and give up my mud crawling exploits and in the fullness of time the William Powell moved on, as it just wasnt getting the use it was intended for. So if any PW member has a long chambered Powell engraved on the top of the right barrel "Made for Donald McIntosh"; please look after the old girl and only feed her a suitable diet of sensible loads.

[Old Boggy]

6 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

Where does it shoot Pt 2

For those who followed my rambling little story from earlier today. I will, if you are sitting comfortably continue.

Looking back now to the period of several weeks that covered this discovery, a logical person would have taken these super Remington cartridges and thrown them into the Thames and gone back to my normal Eley loads. However, logic didnt come into it, as I had paid an eye watering ammount for 2 box`s and had been assured by my dealer friend that these were virtually assured to kill a Greylag stone dead at 75 yards. So reverting to Eley`s was not an option.

My suspicions about my poor results centred about the degree of choke in the Powell and I was contemplating getting the chokes opened up. But what caused a nagging doubt was why my previous Eley loads seemed to do the business, providing I shot straight. So in one of those `light-bulb` moments I decided to pattern the gun at 40 yrds to see if that confirmed my suspicion that the Remingtons were producing super full choke patterns. I duly carried out a pattern test as defined by that great writer of all things to do with shotguns, the late G T Garwood, or Goff Thomas as he was universally known. At great expence and a resulting sore shoulder, I shot 5 Eley Alphamax (1 1/4 oz shot) through each barrel, changing the pattern sheets after each shot, and then repeated this labourious procedure using Eley 3in (1 5/8oz) and finally the Remingtons (1 7/8oz). I recall driving home afterwards having a bit of a throbbing head, as the old lady tended to be a bit lively with the Remingtons.

I duly estimated the centre of the pattern by eye, marked it and drew a 30in circle around this point. I then started checking the pellet count and voids within the circle. However, the problem was starting to become clear once I had marked the MPI and drawn a 30 in circle.

The MPI of all the Alphamax loads was spot-on for line, and averaged good and consistent half choke and full choke patterns about 4 to 6 in above the point of aim (POA).

The Eley 3in magnums were all worringly low, at around 6 or 7in below and slightly right of the POA.

The Remingtons were nothing short of an expensive disaster. The average MPI for both barrels was around 12in. to 14in. below the POA and off the top of my head around 5in to 6in off line to the right.

Having digested this mini disaster, the old grey matter was questioning why. While pondering this, I remembered seeing an article on accuracy in one of Goff Thomas books that I had skipped over when I initially read the book, as it had no relevance at the time. Having dug out the book in question and read his very erudite explanation, the awful displacement of the MPI from the aiming point started to become clear. The old Powell had been built and originally proofed for 1 1/4 oz shot and as is often common with English guns, was fairly slim in the hand. While its intended diet of 1 1/4oz shot (max) shot to the point of aim, the stock was flexing at the hand under recoil, depressing the muzzle(s) and the sideways flex due to the degree of cast was pushing the pattern off to the right. This tendency not to shoot to the point of aim with heavy loads is even more pronounced in a gun cast for central vision, and can make a gun with a cross eyed stock wildly inaccurate. 

Having a gun that shoots 12 or so inchs low at 40 yards is bad enough in daylight; in the dark the instinctive shot at a fleeting target becomes impossible. The Remingtons were causing the problem, and had to go. While I gave away 1 box to a shooting friend for his `gangster-auto` the remenants of the first box are still in my cabinet. They are now about 38 years old, but if anyone wants the handfull I have left, they are welcome. My shooting colleague assured me at the time that they threw the breech open on his auto in a very impressive manner !

Due to a move of jobs I had to move home and give up my mud crawling exploits and in the fullness of time the William Powell moved on, as it just wasnt getting the use it was intended for. So if any PW member has a long chambered Powell engraved on the top of the right barrel "Made for Donald McIntosh"; please look after the old girl and only feed her a suitable diet of sensible loads.

Well worth the wait for a very interesting outcome.

Thanks for posting,

Can I go to bed now ?

OB

[AYA117]

3 minutes ago, Old Boggy said:

Well worth the wait for a very interesting outcome.

Thanks for posting,

Can I go to bed now ?

OB

Same here   I have to ask, how far did you walk the dogs, you have been gone for 9 hours