Environmental question....

[ShootingEgg]

3 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Which only moves the problem away from the vehicle, the electricity still has to be made from something.

This, still have to make the electric that powers the car. So just moving tge problem somewhere else. 

[RockySpears]

Hydrogen is a non-starter:  https://phys.org/news/2006-12-hydrogen-economy-doesnt.html

  ... and does any one want to calculate the cost of conversion of existing systems?

The fossil fuels work just fine and are doing no harm, whilst keeping the World turning.

If diesel were so bad, then how come there are so many old **** around from a time when EVERYTHING gave out more particulate, poisonous gas, CO2 etc etc?

  The climate changes, because, well, Ice Ages for one.  There are NO Climate Change "Deniers", just Climate realists,

 

RS

[ditchman]

37 minutes ago, RockySpears said:

Hydrogen is a non-starter:  https://phys.org/news/2006-12-hydrogen-economy-doesnt.html

  ... and does any one want to calculate the cost of conversion of existing systems?

The fossil fuels work just fine and are doing no harm, whilst keeping the World turning.

If diesel were so bad, then how come there are so many old **** around from a time when EVERYTHING gave out more particulate, poisonous gas, CO2 etc etc?

  The climate changes, because, well, Ice Ages for one.  There are NO Climate Change "Deniers", just Climate realists,

 

RS

yes i understand that.............but if the tockamat ...or.........joint european taurus  (JET)  project wins thro...supplying clean energy for the conversion of fluids to hydrogen would make  sense..

[timmytree]

I think there is an ulterior motive going on. The roads are too busy, the easiest way to cure that is price the majority of the population off the road. The price of electric cars combined with massive hikes in petrol/diesel as we get nearer the deadline will mean people on average wage won't be able to afford a car. 

 

[AVB]

Hydrogen on it own isn’t the solution as it is a very inefficient fuel and takes a lot of energy to create. 

Electricity isn’t the answer for ALL situations. 

I predict that your will see electricity used for the majority of cars including light and semi-light commercial vehicles with bio fuels, perhaps created from CO2, used to power heavy plant. 

You may know that I drive a Tesla and would add that the majority of journeys don’t need you to drive 200+ miles, some Teslas can already do 300+ miles and the model 3 saloon being launched will have a range of 350 miles. Perfectly adequate for the vast majority of drivers. 

[Lord Geordie]

14 hours ago, ditchman said:

 

can anyone put me straight ?

I thought Fat Sarah made you straight  

[Scully]

No oil producing nation is going to cease production of oil while there are people using it; western governments will simply deny their citizens it’s use. The rest of the world will just chug on as usual. 

Batteies are fine to a point, and that includes their life span. What do we do with spent batteries? 

[243deer]

11 hours ago, Wb123 said:

if we get control of the worlds overpopulation issues in time. 

We all know deep down that is the only solution but I do not think despite the human race's combined intelligence that it has the common sense to achieve this.

By the way we felt the Norfolk explosion in Newmarket ...

[ditchman]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

No oil producing nation is going to cease production of oil while there are people using it; western governments will simply deny their citizens it’s use. The rest of the world will just chug on as usual. 

Batteies are fine to a point, and that includes their life span. What do we do with spent batteries? 

any relation to nora battie

1 hour ago, 243deer said:

We all know deep down that is the only solution but I do not think despite the human race's combined intelligence that it has the common sense to achieve this.

By the way we felt the Norfolk explosion in Newmarket ...

obviously the ground moved for you......

[243deer]

5.2

[243deer]

Maybe RB should have read this article first

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/is-there-enough-lithium-to-maintain-the-growth-of-the-lithium-ion-battery-m#gs.lCvFzs0

****************************************************************************************

Then there is the already failing electricity supply in some areas

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/tesla-mega-battery-south-australia-outage-reaction-time-hornsdale-power-reserve-a8130986.html

Add 30000 electric cars being plugged in at around 6pm to the above and see how well the Tesla battery would cope then

On a worldwide scale I do not think that the figures for electric vehicles make any sort of sense.

 

[ditchman]

2 hours ago, Lord Geordie said:

I thought Fat Sarah made you straight  

if you keep on about her ...i will send her up to you....in her finest "victorias secret stuff"..........she will suc you in and blow you out in bubbles ...and that will be truly the "last post from geordi land"...

[Rewulf]

9 hours ago, AVB said:

Hydrogen on it own isn’t the solution as it is a very inefficient fuel and takes a lot of energy to create. 

Electricity isn’t the answer for ALL situations. 

I predict that your will see electricity used for the majority of cars including light and semi-light commercial vehicles with bio fuels, perhaps created from CO2, used to power heavy plant. 

You may know that I drive a Tesla and would add that the majority of journeys don’t need you to drive 200+ miles, some Teslas can already do 300+ miles and the model 3 saloon being launched will have a range of 350 miles. Perfectly adequate for the vast majority of drivers. 

Hydrogen takes a lot of energy to create because we have never bothered to advance the tech to achieve separation.
It used to be an issue to make fresh water in dry countries, but these days desalination plants are very common due to tech and solar power advances.

Electricity is most definitely not the answer to moving heavy goods, shipping, planes ect.
Can you imagine the various nations militaries being told they need to go electric/zero emissions ?

Tesla has pushed the tech forward, as Musk generally does with everything, which is a good thing.
But they are still an expensive car, and how long will those batteries last before a very, very expensive set of new ones are required ?
The range may be extended in time, but at 200 miles, most electric cars of today can just about manage it, in the daytime, and when they are new.
5 years down the line when those batteries are only doing 50 % ?
How long will that trip to Scotland take then ?

Another issue that I was talking to someone about the other day is the problem with collisions.
Many electric and hybrids are getting written off for fairly minor damage (I work in accident repair) due to 'possible' battery damage.
They are reluctant to put the car back on the road in case the lithium cells go up.
So expect that to filter down to premiums in due course.

[Westward]

15 hours ago, Rewulf said:

You mean clouds?
Wont it just rain more ?
 

Water vapour, like steam, is invisible like all the other gases in the atmosphere. Clouds are minute drops of water produced when climate conditions cause water vapour to condense.

As to Ditchies OP, as far as I can work out there is no way, either now or for the foreseeable, to move people and things around that doesn't have an adverse effect on the environment. What would help would be for the EV loving greenies and the global warming industry to understand that electricity generation is massively polluting and, thanks to China, India, Brazil and several other "Developing" countries, is getting rapidly worse rather than steadily better - as is the case with internal combustion engines.

Make electricity clean, quadruple the productive capability to cover peak demand, produce high capacity batteries that are low in cost, light in weight with rapid charge time and at least a 10 year lifespan and EVs might start to make sense.

Until then power units like Mazda's Skyactive X petrol engine with a thermal efficiency very close to electric (on the market in 2019) make a lot of sense.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Westward said:

Water vapour, like steam, is invisible like all the other gases in the atmosphere. Clouds are minute drops of water produced when climate conditions cause water vapour to condense.

 

My comment was a little tongue in cheek, but you are absolutely correct.
Ill start believing in these magic long lasting batteries when they get batteries in mobiles to last longer than a day or two.
They have had years to perfect battery technology, and seem reluctant or incapable of improving them.

[Westward]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

My comment was a little tongue in cheek, but you are absolutely correct.
Ill start believing in these magic long lasting batteries when they get batteries in mobiles to last longer than a day or two.
They have had years to perfect battery technology, and seem reluctant or incapable of improving them.

It would help if politicians, scientists, and campaigners would try a positive approach to solving the issues rather than the relentlessly negative one of constantly blaming motor vehicles. Electricity generation is by far the largest source of air pollution. Transport, which includes trains, buses, ships and aircraft as well as cars and commercials, is responsible for less than a quarter.

[Eyefor]

Cut and pasted from a post of mine July 2017....

In 1969 when I started work at Vauxhall in Luton, my father worked in the Experimental Department (part of General Motors, not totally Vauxhall) and he told me then that GM had a hydrogen engine that got it's fuel by splitting water into Hydrogen and Oxygen but "there is no way that engine will go in to production until the last barrel of oil is extracted from the last working well".

Dad has long gone to developing new chariots in the sky but, over the years, I have spoken to several senior people in the global auto industry - and all of whom denied this was feasible. My standard reply was possibly not feasible / commercial now because you don't have to do it, plus how will all governments replace the fuel tax revenues? No answer.

Much more recently (last year?) Buzz Aldrin was on Starwatch /Moonwatch/ Nightwatch (something like that) with Professor Brian Cox and Dara O Briain and was asked "why is it so important to find water on other planets? Is it because it sustains life"?

Aldrin replied "no it's because whilst we can get to several planets, we cannot carry enough fuel there for the return journey. If we have water, we have Hydrogen, we have fuel for the return journey".

Cat out of the bag Buzz.

There's not enough electricity capacity to run the country flat out at present? Plus Hydrogen would use the (adapted) current fuel station infrastructure?

T'is all BS.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Eyefor

[RockySpears]

1 hour ago, 243deer said:

Maybe RB should have read this article first

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/is-there-enough-lithium-to-maintain-the-growth-of-the-lithium-ion-battery-m#gs.lCvFzs0

****************************************************************************************

Then there is the already failing electricity supply in some areas

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/tesla-mega-battery-south-australia-outage-reaction-time-hornsdale-power-reserve-a8130986.html

Add 30000 electric cars being plugged in at around 6pm to the above and see how well the Tesla battery would cope then

On a worldwide scale I do not think that the figures for electric vehicles make any sort of sense.

 

  Large scale adoption of EVs is not going to happen, probably never.

1) Electricy production would need to be ramped, but no one is building power stations bar Hinkley point.  Things are tight as it is thanks to Wind and Solar sucking up all the demand.  Except when they can't:  https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2018/03/13/beast-from-the-east-exposed-our-energy-failings/

2) Approx. 30% of our housing stock is terraced houses.  Tell me where the charging points will be?  Oh, and there are two and three cars at many addresses.

3) Storing all that electricity in one place (just between your legs) is just dammed dangerous.  You can put a petrol tank out of immediate danger zone, but electric cars are, for the most part, one big battery storage.

  I would be happy to drive electric, but whilst the batteries are huge and the supply of power is so limited, it is not happening.

 

RS

[ditchman]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Hydrogen takes a lot of energy to create because we have never bothered to advance the tech to achieve separation.
It used to be an issue to make fresh water in dry countries, but these days desalination plants are very common due to tech and solar power advances.

Electricity is most definitely not the answer to moving heavy goods, shipping, planes ect.
Can you imagine the various nations militaries being told they need to go electric/zero emissions ?

Tesla has pushed the tech forward, as Musk generally does with everything, which is a good thing.
But they are still an expensive car, and how long will those batteries last before a very, very expensive set of new ones are required ?
The range may be extended in time, but at 200 miles, most electric cars of today can just about manage it, in the daytime, and when they are new.
5 years down the line when those batteries are only doing 50 % ?
How long will that trip to Scotland take then ?

Another issue that I was talking to someone about the other day is the problem with collisions.
Many electric and hybrids are getting written off for fairly minor damage (I work in accident repair) due to 'possible' battery damage.
They are reluctant to put the car back on the road in case the lithium cells go up.
So expect that to filter down to premiums in due course.

thank you Rewulf............

[Scully]

1 hour ago, RockySpears said:

  Large scale adoption of EVs is not going to happen, probably never.

1) Electricy production would need to be ramped, but no one is building power stations bar Hinkley point.  Things are tight as it is thanks to Wind and Solar sucking up all the demand.  Except when they can't:  https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2018/03/13/beast-from-the-east-exposed-our-energy-failings/

2) Approx. 30% of our housing stock is terraced houses.  Tell me where the charging points will be?  Oh, and there are two and three cars at many addresses.

3) Storing all that electricity in one place (just between your legs) is just dammed dangerous.  You can put a petrol tank out of immediate danger zone, but electric cars are, for the most part, one big battery storage.

  I would be happy to drive electric, but whilst the batteries are huge and the supply of power is so limited, it is not happening.

 

RS

Thankyou; a bit of common sense. 

[hawkeye]

19 hours ago, ditchman said:

get outa here......................

 

you might be surprised as to what goes on in my shed............

Especially when big Sarah is round  ?

[AVB]

As I said electric won’t suit all needs. I didn’t buy my car because of its green credentials but lets dispel some of the myths quoted here:

1) battery life. Age is irrelevant, it’s cycles of recharge that matter. There are Tesla’s that have got 150,000 miles on them that have been through thousands of recharge cycles with no material impact. 10% reduction in range. Laptops and phones don’t have the sophisticated software to manage battery life that cars have. Phone makers want you to buy a new phone every two years! 

2) most people don’t need to do journeys of hundreds of miles. The majority are relatively short. 

3) when doing long journeys you don’t need to fill from empty to 100%. You fill enough to get to your destination. It’s not like driving a petrol car where you typically fill the tank up. The longest journey I have done is 300 miles which required a stop en route of 15 minutes  I would have stopped for a coffee anyway. Plenty of Tesla drivers drive to the South of France, Spain and Italy. It might take a couple of hours longer but more relaxing (and free!).

4) high capacity chargers (such as the Tesla superchargers) are increasing all the time. They will take you from 10% to 80% in about 20 minutes. See 3 above. 

5) range doesnt drop dramatically at night. LED lights use little power  likewise heating and air-con not material. Cold weather impacts the range until the battery has warmed up (like a petrol car). On a long journey it’s not material and on a short journey it doesn’t matter as you top up again when home. Rain, surprisingly, has probably the biggest impact on range. 

6) not having off road parking is a disadvantage but many of EV owners in London cope. They charge at work or in car parks. 

7) don’t tell me that a battery is more dangerous than driving a car contains 100l of petrol! Petrol cars catch fire all of the time especially in accident. Yes car batteries can catch fire if in an accident but normally not immediately. They are a slow burn but yes hard to put out. 

8. Then insurance on my Tesla was cheaper than for my Discovery. 

9) they are cheap to run. Free/cheap electricity, no/lower car tax, no congestion charge and from 2020 BIK tax reduces to 2%. 

And if Hydrogen is the way forward why aren’t the car manufacturers investing in it? Nobody is. Most if not all are investing in EV’s. 

But many people won’t be convinced.

 

[Rewulf]

15 minutes ago, AVB said:

As I said electric won’t suit all needs. I didn’t buy my car because of its green credentials but lets dispel some of the myths quoted here:

1) battery life. Age is irrelevant, it’s cycles of recharge that matter. There are Tesla’s that have got 150,000 miles on them that have been through thousands of recharge cycles with no material impact. 10% reduction in range. Laptops and phones don’t have the sophisticated software to manage battery life that cars have. Phone makers want you to buy a new phone every two years! 

 

 

 

http://www.plugincars.com/tesla-model-s-replacement-battery-packs-125571.html

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-battery-replacement-cost.76078/

I dont think anyone said that a car with a battery for a floorpan was any more dangerous than a petrol car, the simple fact is ,they are more expensive to insure.
The example I sited was a lexus that had been rear ended, and looked like it only really needed a bumper, but was written off due to a 'suspected rupture in one or more battery storage areas' car was a year old.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/04/electric-car-insurance-woes-evs-have-more-accidents-tesla-model-s-most-expensive-to-insure/

When it comes down to replacing batteries (and Tesla is probably a bad example, due to their high quality and design) it is going to be expensive..one day.

If they are just a 'normal' car with a motor and batteries, instead of a fossil engine and gearbox, why are they so frighteningly expensive ?

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-nissan-leaf-priced-£21990-uk

Not pulling the whole idea to bits, but we are being forced into buying into an expensive technology, with possibly expensive after market service costs.
Ive been in the motor trade a long time now, and its not the first time this trick has been pulled.

[Westward]

Tesla may be state of the art with EVs but the majority of people are buying cars with a new price of £15-25K. What sort of EV is available at that price point that can transport a family on a 250 mile trip to the Lakes? Come to that, how many hybrids at that price point? A more typical EV is the Leaf. The latest mid range model is £26K and up with a range of 235 miles and a charge to 80% in 40minutes. Sorry but not really much use for that trip to the Lakes. IDK if the quoted price includes the idiotic government grant for what they mistakenly describe as a zero emission car.

As for battery life, it's a provable fact that it's dependant of the number of charging cycles and the type of charging cycle. As with phones keeping the battery between 60% & 90% extends the life significantly, but even the cleverest software in the world can only slow the inevitable and ultimately terminal deterioration in performance.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Westward
typo

[Lord Geordie]

7 hours ago, ditchman said:

if you keep on about her ...i will send her up to you....in her finest "victorias secret stuff"..........she will suc you in and blow you out in bubbles ...and that will be truly the "last post from geordi land"...

Promises promises