Crime and Punishment in the snowflake age

[Newbie to this]

Oh dear,

I don’t think his post is about not wanting to help the disabled.

But more about not wanting to help people who have no intention of working, but live a far better life than most who do. The same people who pay TAX which goes in part to paying for people who have no intention of working, just knocking out kids which they expect others to pay for.

10 minutes ago, henry d said:

Yeah it is a screwed up society when people get all upset because someone needs help for their disabled children.

Here's his whole post, just incase you only read the bit that offended you about him mentioning disabled children.

21 hours ago, jonny705 said:

Does anyone not think that maybe one of the reasons, of this increasingly screwed up society, is the fact of the benefits culture, and ease of which it is acquired?

 

Just like many other ideas of good original intention to help the genuine needy -such as Legal aid, free health care, child benefits just gets milked by people with no moral compass /integrity.

 

I struggle to think of how a girl of 17 or less ,  can have a child once a year  with a different father (theoretically) until she cannot biologically conceive, and NOBODY will tell her to stop .

 

We all have the possibility of free education so don’t agree with what Plan B says about that –and could all potentially be really clever/skilled, BUT that takes hard work, loads of homework, study sacrifices of your free time, which most kids won’t naturally do without a role model pushing them and inspiring them – but that takes good parenting and relentless hard work – the very thing my fictitious mother above is unlikely to have.

 

BY never saying you have to accept responsibility for yourself and stop having as many kids as you want with no intention of ever paying for their upbringing -the state and all the hard working people who fund that will -no worries, she isn’t likely to stop.

 

A perfect example of that is the bedroom tax – when it was introduced, the way round it? They just had another baby , it was a simple as that ,I’ve lived on council estate’s and know a few people that avoided moving or PAYING for once in their lives by dropping another baby like you might get another job or work overtime.

 

I know a woman with 9 kids, some are disabled so she gets shed loads of help –she drives a shogun and the council has knocked an intermediate wall down and linked two houses into one for her and her brood to reside in –its massive –I am a Qualified sparky yet could never affords a car/ house like she has, she has never worked in her life just lies on her back like it’s a career.

 

She argues it’s her right like an entitlement to have as many kids, and you should be almost honoured to help her when you are lucky enough to have a job and earn money – this is the benefits culture we have encouraged to grow its madness.

 

I cannot see any of the kids in that situation having any kind of role model to inspire them can you?

 

Society                 typically hates the kids, I hate the system for allowing the people to just breed as many as they want, a career in doing nothing is not discouraged, having twenty kids with 20 dads is not even something to be ashamed of now – they hold their heads up high like it is an achievement and let /expect society to fit the bill and teachers to educate and teach them basic manners.

 

Grime /Drill music, trust me, is on a stratospheric rise in popularity, youth world over cannot get enough of it – poor uninspired kids relate to it , privileged kids follow it because its hip cool so it’s both segments of the spectrum.

 

 

 

 

Like Plan B says, they look to rap to get inspiration etc., and as he rightly says – it is the violence in the lyrics /videos that attracts the Labels, and gets them signed up.

 

My nephew is 20 lives in London and as is well in with Drill culture and is promoting some lad – he is in liaison with a major label at moment about it, and recently has got into violence and has a TAG and is up for GBH sec20 – I said what to the record company say about that?

 

He said your joking they loved it, makes him and them look badass –Controversy sells and promotes anything and always will.

 

He gets offered free clothing, watches from new companies all wanting to ride on the back of the violent associations, if one gets shot and is on the media wearing a free top, well the Publicity you get is priceless.

 

 These companies have no moral compass, as each young and sometime really talented person that gets shot another simply talks their place conveyer belt style, life is cheap and the money continues to roll in especially if there dead so its win win .

 

I asked him why you feel the need rap about stabbing up shooting your fellow brothers then.

 

Because it sells the records and gets the Companies interested-he says all the social media feeds once they generate a high viewing figures (and only then) have you any hope in getting some contract, they primarily are not interested in talent just likely popularity which is proven by the viewing figures first, he says if you are attracting figures in the million’s on a regular basis, you are likely to get a deal as you almost are guaranteed to sell records.

 

Harsh punishments don’t really work TBH, just look to the states, nicking a car gets you locked up for a while and their prisons to me don’t look easy – but they don’t deter them – these people have had no moral compass in them from childhood, and nothing to lose, their lives are hollow anyway so just don’t care, the gang culture even if inside gives a sense of belonging that the parents never did.

 

If it costs 65k /40K a year for a prisoner to be locked up no wonder this country is skint and the Judges CPS don’t want to send anyone down- rehabilitation if their 30 isn’t likely to work is it.

 

But you could say I was a hypocrite, as if someone mugged my Mum, I would hurt them really bad and happily go down – I would not care what there background was.

 

This is why it’s a thorny issue with many sides and passionate opinions.

 

Society for sure is very messed up, and IMO the benefits culture endless handouts are the root cause – it breeds a race with no meaning in their life’s – hence self-abuse with drugs alcohol to take them from thinking about it, a massive rise over say last 20 years in self harm and suicide rates amongst children really is just wrong and sad on so many level’s when originally it was to help the destitute and poor – someone has to cap the child rate in this country if you choose never to work- else it’s just going to get worse.

 

 

[manthing]

On the up side, should these scum ever apply for a job (yea I know) and the prospective employer searches their names, it will be there for all to see. I certainly wouldn't want someone who thinks that kind of behaviour is OK working for me. 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

Yeah it is a screwed up society when people get all upset because someone needs help for their disabled children.

I think state funded help for disabled kids is worthy, but I also think it's irresponsible ( and frankly downright annoying ) when some people who have no intention of working, have a virtual tribe of kids and expect the state to fund their welfare and upbringing. Many live the sort of lives that few who work for a living, can afford. I can totally understand people resenting this, and I see it on an almost daily basis. 

Before anyone jumps down my throat, my ex is one of six girls brought up on a council estate by a mother who had to bring them up virtually on her own as her husband was next to useless. To say it was character building is an understatement, but they mostly grew up to have a good work ethic ( although that state funded indoctrination isn't too far below the surface ) and are basically good honest people....with exceptions, which we wont go into here, but growing up on the same estate were some really hard lads ( I know because I used to play rugby against them ) the vast majority of whom are hard working and doing very well for themselves. Not many of them are squeaky clean, but its hard to grow up so in such an environment, but none of them have done time either. Poverty doesn't have the monopoly on breeding crime. The most difficult part in my opinion, is breaking that cycle of giving up, that some parents not worthy of the title, pass down to their offspring. 

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, Newbie to this said:

Oh dear,

I don’t think his post is about not wanting to help the disabled.

But more about not wanting to help people who have no intention of working, but live a far better life than most who do. The same people who pay TAX which goes in part to paying for people who have no intention of working, just knocking out kids which they expect others to pay for.

 

 

+1

[jonny705]

Jeez Henery D, I follow this forum for years and admire people like you who buck the trend and majority when you will be likely on the end of a lot of people frustrations.

But you plainly and obviously court controversy for controversy sake to wind people up – Quoting child killer Ian Brady is pretty unlikely to win much support ,being idealistic is all very commendable but sometimes you have to be realistic- sometimes you have to shoot your pet  dog that bites you-some creatures -  unbelievable maybe to you, are just born bad.

Try reading some books on Salford’s drug gang culture – where they not only tax you –but rape the male in front of his wife and kids for example?  No some people are pure evil you have got to accept that.

Regarding my post, if you have a child that is disabled etc, the dedication and time and effort to bring them up is momentous , if you both work as parents one would have to give up your job at least to be at home depending how severe the disability is- My best friends wife works with mentally ill children , it’s really demanding –she stays over at their houses as the parents  need some downtime most of them struggle with one child.

The therapy medical care involved is all phenomenally expensive, yet the woman I know ,even though she had 4 kids already decides it her human right to have more – social services do everything for the kids they are assigned social workers as she cannot cope – so her answer ?

Have another four-I wouldn’t let her look after my dog she has no common sense – her kids run riot as they are getting older ,  a very selfish person with no regard for society or her kids welfare it’s just a way of life and all about her-trust me she don’t care much for her kids.

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, Scully said:

I think state funded help for disabled kids is worthy, but I also think it's irresponsible ( and frankly downright annoying ) when some people who have no intention of working, have a virtual tribe of kids and expect the state to fund their welfare and upbringing. Many live the sort of lives that few who work for a living, can afford. I can totally understand people resenting this, and I see it on an almost daily basis. 

Before anyone jumps down my throat, my ex is one of six girls brought up on a council estate by a mother who had to bring them up virtually on her own as her husband was next to useless. To say it was character building is an understatement, but they mostly grew up to have a good work ethic ( although that state funded indoctrination isn't too far below the surface ) and are basically good honest people....with exceptions, which we wont go into here, but growing up on the same estate were some really hard lads ( I know because I used to play rugby against them ) the vast majority of whom are hard working and doing very well for themselves. Not many of them are squeaky clean, but its hard to grow up so in such an environment, but none of them have done time either. Poverty doesn't have the monopoly on breeding crime. The most difficult part in my opinion, is breaking that cycle of giving up, that some parents not worthy of the title, pass down to their offspring. 

Well said.

No one is talking about completely removing disability benefits, or completely removing any type of social security type benefits, I think we have gone well past that now.
What we do need is an adult conversation about it, without people getting all butt hurt offended about it.

Its unsustainable, and it doesnt help with crime levels.
The more people on benefits in a particular area, you can guarantee a higher crime rate.
Is it because they cant afford to eat properly, cant afford holidays and nice things, TV ,internet ?
Well actually they can, they live a half decent life on benefits, courtesy of us tax payers.
What they lack is self respect, and that leads to lack of respect for others, which leads to anti social behaviour and crime.

Yet when someone talks about curtailing this career of scrounging, UPROAR ! , cries of austerity, bullying of the poor and such like.
But what if they are not poor ?
Is it all about trying to just keep people from voting the 'wrong' way ?

The tories know what will happen if a tough stance on benefit culture is introduced, they will lose power to labour because all those millions on benefits will make sure they do.
And labour will reverse it all, just like they have done before.
This is what you have to deal with first.
 

[JohnfromUK]

10 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The tories know what will happen if a tough stance on benefit culture is introduced, they will lose power to labour because all those millions on benefits will make sure they do.
And labour will reverse it all, just like they have done before.
This is what you have to deal with first.

That is exactly what you will get - as the Labour party have built up (largely under Brown) a core block of voters whose lifestyle is funded by the taxpayer.  It is the aim of many on the left wing to have people dependant on the state, either from benefits, or in employment in state owned and controlled industry/services so that the state has full 'control'.

[henry d]

25 minutes ago, jonny705 said:

Jeez Henery D, I follow this forum for years and admire people like you who buck the trend and majority when you will be likely on the end of a lot of people frustrations.

 

But you plainly and obviously court controversy for controversy sake to wind people up...

No, unfortunately as this is a forum people tend not to write much, however yours was quite a long piece, but unfortuntely it was a little confused so I just took one bit out and used it to show how a generalisations or "straw man" arguments get used when people are genuinely upset and unable to see a way out of some of the societal problems we have.

I agree that 9 children is an awful lot and I liked that you teased out other issues; her lack of parenting skills and I`m sure that she has other issues too which may or may not contribute to why she is not really a net contributor to society. I do also understand a lot about physical and mental disabilities as my wife has worked in that area for nearly 28 years and used 2 weeks of her hard eaarned summer holiday to volunteer in a Kenyan school/orphanage.

So back to C&P (and other related social ills). So far there is very little support for prevention other than the punishment being the central structure of prevention. As has been commented on, it hasn`t prevented crime in countries where it is a lot more severe than the UK so what would make a new C&P system work and how could it be done on the cheap?

How about a version of Jeremy Bentham`s "Panopticon" as Foucault saw it. Rather than having a tower and semi circular cells we can utilise modern technology, to keep those who do not obey the system of law to keep an eye on them. They observe and monitor what the inmate does and can then modify their behaviour, as the power lies in the knowledge known about the individual.

Sounds like a totalitarian society to me, and a well messed up one at that, however if you extrapolate the above idea to the internet and how that modifies peoples shopping habits at one end of the scale to how it forms or fosters beliefs at the other, but the panopticon would seem to fit the bill for a few people.

[Gordon R]

henry d - just accept that many criminals are way beyond help and would not want it. They enjoy the lifestyle too much.

I started out thinking that your proposals for prevention had some merit. I can only hope that you would have little to do with administering the "hug a hoodie" treatment. I would much prefer some harsh punishment for those who continually flout the law. As an earlier poster has cited - the Salford criminals would laugh at your suggestions.

[12gauge82]

I'm all for helping people but at some point you have to draw a line, I and most normal people would draw that line at putting the rights of dangerous criminal before that of potential future victims, the care bear society where do gooders make excuse after excuse for these people are part of the problem and only help to drag society down causing the problems to continue. That said I do beleive society should try, so long as it's not at the detriment of good people who are doing the right thing, taking help from no one and struggle on while the scum of society are given chance after chance.

5 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

henry d - just accept that many criminals are way beyond help and would not want it. They enjoy the lifestyle too much.

I started out thinking that your proposals for prevention had some merit. I can only hope that you would have little to do with administering the "hug a hoodie" treatment. I would much prefer some harsh punishment for those who continually flout the law. As an earlier poster has cited - the Salford criminals would laugh at your suggestions.

+1

[jonny705]

Henry – like I say mate- I might not agree with you but you come out with some interesting stuff and unusual angles.

The prison you shown –to me is to induce a perceived paranoia in the very fact you don’t know if you are being watched so likely to keep you in constant state of tension.

You could compare it to the all seeing eye of religion and potential sin –a way to control through being paranoid about something is ALWAYS watching you.

It more or less must be like that now I guess in modern prisons-I used to work for a company and fitted domes in prisons-they were very expensive so not many as such fitted –but now cameras are peanuts and everywhere – There is already a thing about hacking smart TV’s to be able to watch you along with phone /laptop/ webcam we are defiantly coming to an Orwellian type state.

The police rely on CCTV and seizing the perps mobile and using Cellebrite phone extraction techniques to retrieve ALL your data not just relevant bits-how far can should they go back?

I think the reliance on these techniques will unfortunately dilute proper police crime solving skills.

Crime defiantly pays, I live on council estates and know quite a few pretty dodgy people- a lot are loaded TBH only the stupid ones are in and out of prison.

It’s all about your Moral compass and responsibility – but that has to be installed in you from parents /role models from birth really-something as simple as brushing your teeth ,tiding your room teaches you to respect your stuff and having to do things that you don’t like or see point of maybe when you are young.

Parents now buy a mobile/tablet and use it as an electronic babysitter for example – phones are simply an addiction – I cannot believe how people don’t see that.(maybe they just don’t care).

But my points about a cap on children I think is valid – it just promotes entitlement for doing nothing, plus a selfish attitude towards the rest of society.

I am 49 and have seen kids grow up on my estate – wag school smoke weed, get no qualifications no pride – but nobody pushes them – I love Bikes and some would be interested in fixing them and would be eager to learn –something tangible to get into- I NEVER had any trouble with the youths TBH as I would always treat them just normal and get on with loads – they cry out for a bit of attention which often  never comes-hence gangs. A few of them have topped themselves over the years or end up down the nut house due to drug abuse – I have watched the rise and fall of children that aint even mine and it’s sad – whether you like it or not SOME parents see them as a meal ticket to lethargic easy lifestyle.

Just like when my dog gets attacked by another dog when walking – I don’t blame the dog I blame the owner.

[JohnfromUK]

There is a good example  in my local paper today of what happens when people are 'helped' by a soft system, in this case by giving him pocket money of £60 a week (in 1994 that was a considerable 'pocket money').  Now just sent down for his 99th offence.

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/cheltenham-news/pocket-money-boy-cheltenham-jail-1901009

 

[Rewulf]

52 minutes ago, henry d said:

No, unfortunately as this is a forum people tend not to write much, however yours was quite a long piece, but unfortuntely it was a little confused so I just took one bit out and used it to show how a generalisations or "straw man" arguments get used when people are genuinely upset and unable to see a way out of some of the societal problems we have.

 

Dont take this the wrong way,but ..

You did what you normally do Henry, you picked out the bit that was (in your opinion) the most offensive, took it out of context, then used it to nullify the whole argument, because generally you dont agree with harsh punishment.
Yes people are upset, but you are wrong, we DO see a way out of societal problems, the only issue is , our government of the day doesnt want to upset some of the electorate in case they dont get elected next time.

59 minutes ago, henry d said:

 

I agree that 9 children is an awful lot and I liked that you teased out other issues; her lack of parenting skills and I`m sure that she has other issues too which may or may not contribute to why she is not really a net contributor to society. I do also understand a lot about physical and mental disabilities as my wife has worked in that area for nearly 28 years and used 2 weeks of her hard eaarned summer holiday to volunteer in a Kenyan school/orphanage.

 

Then you make excuses for the example parent, its not the fact that she is a lazy slob at all, its because she has 'issues'
What your wife does for a living, or how she spends her holidays have absolutely no relevance in trying to understand benefit culture.

 

1 hour ago, henry d said:

 

How about a version of Jeremy Bentham`s "Panopticon" as Foucault saw it. Rather than having a tower and semi circular cells we can utilise modern technology, to keep those who do not obey the system of law to keep an eye on them. They observe and monitor what the inmate does and can then modify their behaviour, as the power lies in the knowledge known about the individual.

Sounds like a totalitarian society to me, and a well messed up one at that, however if you extrapolate the above idea to the internet and how that modifies peoples shopping habits at one end of the scale to how it forms or fosters beliefs at the other, but the panopticon would seem to fit the bill for a few people.

Im very familiar with the concept of the panopticon, but that way lies totalitarianism and virtual or mechanical mind control.
Why not just surgically implant trackers and pain inducers to manipulate behaviour ?
Is that the kind of society we want to live in ?
No, but I also dont want to live in a world where criminality is excused by do gooders, who think that every one of them deserves a 4th 5th Nth chance, then gets a slap on the wrist, IT DOESNT WORK !
You will never stop criminality, but you can make it seem less appealing by tougher punishment.
You will never stop it by pretending its not really their fault, that other factors 'made' them that way.
Its time to take responsibility and ownership of your actions, rather than laying the blame on someone or something else.
 

[henry d]

16 hours ago, Gordon R said:

henry d - just accept that many criminals are way beyond help and would not want it. They enjoy the lifestyle too much. I totally accept that some do not want to conform to societies standards, but we still should try to rehabilitate them, but it is up to them and after that they suffer the consequences. It is helping them before they get to a point at which they are as you say way beyond help, it would be foolish to try and a waste of money, after that point. However there are a few interesting exceptions, one of which I was at college with, Anthony Gielty . He scared the living p oo p out of me then as he just had that look about him and he was a reformed character by then, but I still felt uneasy watching him play pool. The brief story will be torn to shreds by people but it was the intervention of someone who cared that caused his eventual turn around, he wasn`t even afraid of being on the "Ghost Train", and yet it was someone caring for him deeply that helped him change his life.

I started out thinking that your proposals for prevention had some merit. I can only hope that you would have little to do with administering the "hug a hoodie" treatment. I would much prefer some harsh punishment for those who continually flout the law. As an earlier poster has cited - the Salford criminals would laugh at your suggestions. See above

 

15 hours ago, jonny705 said:

Henry – like I say mate- I might not agree with you but you come out with some interesting stuff and unusual angles.

 

The prison you shown –to me is to induce a perceived paranoia in the very fact you don’t know if you are being watched so likely to keep you in constant state of tension.

 

You could compare it to the all seeing eye of religion and potential sin –a way to control through being paranoid about something is ALWAYS watching you.

That is the ethos behind the prisons that were built on that design and it didn`t work,and I used it to show that although some people here are crying out for harsher punishments, ultimately these don`t work, they only confine and control and that is only after the fact, they do not prevent.

It’s all about your Moral compass and responsibility – but that has to be installed in you from parents /role models from birth really-something as simple as brushing your teeth ,tiding your room teaches you to respect your stuff and having to do things that you don’t like or see point of maybe when you are young.

Sometimes the parent is beyond being able to do even these things, so as a civilised society what do we do? Do we say "The fat lazy **** needs to get of her fat lazy **** and get a job/lose weight/ whatever and better themselves!" "If she can`t look after her kids she shouldn`t have them!" or do we put help in place for them, which is the more civilised

Parents now buy a mobile/tablet and use it as an electronic babysitter for example – phones are simply an addiction – I cannot believe how people don’t see that.(maybe they just don’t care).

And not just those from lower income areas. Everytime child observes and mimics their parents and peers so the genie is out of the bottle in that respect.

But my points about a cap on children I think is valid – it just promotes entitlement for doing nothing, plus a selfish attitude towards the rest of society.

I know China did it for a different reason but it still is problematic, a friend has 5 children and the father has a successful dental practice and the mother is a mother, and the kids are bright and well rounded individuals, should they have been capped or prevented from having more? Should it only apply to C.H.A.V. families?

I am 49 and have seen kids grow up on my estate – wag school smoke weed, get no qualifications no pride – but nobody pushes them – I love Bikes and some would be interested in fixing them and would be eager to learn –something tangible to get into- I NEVER had any trouble with the youths TBH as I would always treat them just normal and get on with loads – they cry out for a bit of attention which often  never comes-hence gangs. A few of them have topped themselves over the years or end up down the nut house due to drug abuse – I have watched the rise and fall of children that aint even mine and it’s sad – whether you like it or not SOME parents see them as a meal ticket to lethargic easy lifestyle.

I`ve seen the same, I`ve lived in council housing (or estates) for most of my life, but sometimes it isn`t about the pushing of a person, it is about getting alongside them as you have alluded to. The bike comment is a relevant one as a local BIKE PROJECT works with young people at risk of offending and offenders and receives some funding and we often use it to help some young people.

Just like when my dog gets attacked by another dog when walking – I don’t blame the dog I blame the owner. If you tease apart that analogy a bit more you will find that the attacking dog came from a bitch who may have brought it up better than the person who actually is just an owner and is not from the same society/class/culture and therefore cannot truly communicate with them.

 

 

[Gordon R]

henry d - you keeping citing examples of people we don't know, to back up your tenuous arguments. It's akin to Jeremy Corbyn citing letters from his constituents, at Prime Ministers Question Time, to avoid being ridiculed.

Stop it - please.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Please!

[Rewulf]

Its what the thread is all about , making up excuses for peoples bad behaviour, rather than just letting them take responsibility for their OWN actions.
It has got to stop.
Say things how they are, stop being scared of offending people, especially when they are not remotely scared of offending YOU .

[henry d]

23 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

henry d - you keeping citing examples of people we don't know, to back up your tenuous arguments. It's akin to Jeremy Corbyn citing letters from his constituents, at Prime Ministers Question Time, to avoid being ridiculed.

Stop it - please.

Read about Anthony then, or buy his book, educate yourself.

I`d also ask whether you work in these areas or what your expertise is on the subject of criminal punishment or prevention?

18 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Its what the thread is all about , making up excuses for peoples bad behaviour, rather than just letting them take responsibility for their OWN actions.
It has got to stop.
Say things how they are, stop being scared of offending people, especially when they are not remotely scared of offending YOU .

It isn`t making excuses, no-one lives in a vacuum we are all the sum of our experiences and the pressures of the world we are born into. Part of the methodology used in intervention work is to get right under the skin of a person, but you cannot do it until you have a mutual and respectful relationship with them. It would be like me saying to some of the responders here or in other informal social situations that you really need to shut up until you have had a thought of your own rather than touting out the same old drivel you heard from X/Y/Z. It isn`t helpful, it entrenches the person into their mindset/belief by offending them. However if you have a friend you have know well for a long time and have a mutually respectful relationship, you may well get a good positive response as you will know how to speak to them and when the right time to speak to them about their shortcomings, and you will also have to be ready to be given the same. That is the point at which you find out whether the person is really wanting to change.

The only person that makes up excuses for their bad behaviour is that person.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, henry d said:

Read about Anthony then, or buy his book, educate yourself.

I`d also ask whether you work in these areas or what your expertise is on the subject of criminal punishment or prevention?

 

??

 

1 minute ago, henry d said:

 

It isn`t making excuses, no-one lives in a vacuum we are all the sum of our experiences and the pressures of the world we are born into. Part of the methodology used in intervention work is to get right under the skin of a person, but you cannot do it until you have a mutual and respectful relationship with them. It would be like me saying to some of the responders here or in other informal social situations that you really need to shut up until you have had a thought of your own rather than touting out the same old drivel you heard from X/Y/Z. It isn`t helpful, it entrenches the person into their mindset/belief by offending them. However if you have a friend you have know well for a long time and have a mutually respectful relationship, you may well get a good positive response as you will know how to speak to them and when the right time to speak to them about their shortcomings, and you will also have to be ready to be given the same. That is the point at which you find out whether the person is really wanting to change.

The only person that makes up excuses for their bad behaviour is that person.

Clearly not true , you have made up various excuses during this thread for criminals.

You are very clearly of that unshakeable mindset.

[Gordon R]

So Anthony has a book. Have all the others?

I don't need patronising advice to educate myself, unless you have a friend who was saved from a life of crime, by educating himself . That would convince me.

Quote

I`d also ask whether you work in these areas or what your expertise is on the subject of criminal punishment or prevention?

Clearly a little more than yours.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

38 minutes ago, henry d said:

It isn`t making excuses, no-one lives in a vacuum we are all the sum of our experiences and the pressures of the world we are born into. Part of the methodology used in intervention work is to get right under the skin of a person, but you cannot do it until you have a mutual and respectful relationship with them. It would be like me saying to some of the responders here or in other informal social situations that you really need to shut up until you have had a thought of your own rather than touting out the same old drivel you heard from X/Y/Z. It isn`t helpful, it entrenches the person into their mindset/belief by offending them. However if you have a friend you have know well for a long time and have a mutually respectful relationship, you may well get a good positive response as you will know how to speak to them and when the right time to speak to them about their shortcomings, and you will also have to be ready to be given the same. That is the point at which you find out whether the person is really wanting to change.

 

Henry it isn't working, while you are attempting to bring a few back from the wrong side of society, many more are going there due to the fact that we no longer have enough Police, a robust judicial system or places in what prison used to be when all three were part of the deterrent before the lilly livered liberal take over that has spoilt this once great country.

There simply are not enough of you and your type to do the job. Let's get back to the days when people were worried about being caught, prosecuted and being detained at Her majesties Pleasure

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Henry it isn't working, while you are attempting to bring a few back from the wrong side of society, many more are going there due to the fact that we no longer have enough Police, a robust judicial system or places in what prison used to be when all three were part of the deterrent before the lilly livered liberal take over that has spoilt this once great country.

There simply are not enough of you and your type to do the job. Let's get back to the days when people were worried about being caught, prosecuted and being detained at Her majesties Pleasure

+1

[henry d]

28 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Henry it isn't working, while you are attempting to bring a few back from the wrong side of society, many more are going there due to the fact that we no longer have enough Police, a robust judicial system or places in what prison used to be when all three were part of the deterrent before the lilly livered liberal take over that has spoilt this once great country.

There simply are not enough of you and your type to do the job. Let's get back to the days when people were worried about being caught, prosecuted and being detained at Her majesties Pleasure

Sorry but you are wrong, it does work; see page 5, "...the number of offenders in this cohort has fallen by around 80% since 2003" Link Here

[TIGHTCHOKE]

So as I say, there are not enough of you and the lack of a realistic deterrent is a massive part of the problem.

I do not wish to be surrounded by weak people and over strong petty criminals on the road to real criminality.

[12gauge82]

Henrey d

Reoffending rates have gone up drastically since our care bear prison system, it's right that no prison system has ever stopped reoffending which is why for the worst offenders we should bring back the death penalty or warehouse them cheaply, rehabilitation doesn't work for hardened offenders, it should be focused on the young and non habitual offenders before they go too far.