The Salisbury Poison Gas Incident II

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

Amesbury (missing from the convenient timeline map from the BBC) is not on the way from Skripal's house to Heathrow.

Im not sure , but didnt they go into a park in Salisbury where they supposedly picked up the bottle ?
I thought that was said originally, but Im sure I read lately he picked it up out of a charity drop or something.

Theres lots of weird and conflicting stories about both 'attacks'
I went to Salisbury a couple of weeks back and there was a very visible police presence around the QE gardens, I didnt try to enter, but was told later it was closed to the public , still ?

[henry d]

43 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Its the theories that you wont find lurking on the web, that are maybe more noteworthy ...

Coooooooooooooooooooooler than Ice cold!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OFF-GRID CONSPIRACIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, henry d said:

Coooooooooooooooooooooler than Ice cold!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OFF-GRID CONSPIRACIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And why not, if a conspiracy theory was 'outed' on the web, and found to be a little close to the truth.
Would not government/security sevices ect remove it ?

I asked you to think of a country that has not been touted as a possible culprit in the Salisbury case.
You can use this countries name and google the question if you like, no hits.
No conspiracy theories come up in a search, yet this country has every reason to blacken Russia, and has been caught doing so on multiple occasions.

[Hamster]

And not just Russia. 

[henry d]

OK I`ll do it.

Komrad Corbyn passed on the Novichok to the 2x Russians so that in doing so increase his support among backbenchers and those who are not rabid anti-semites in the labour party by using the theory I put together earlier (Its as true as I am riding a bike and juggling ferrets at this precise moment). The 2x Russians will never be seen again unless the permafrost totally disapears, which is where we started, as the chemical agent Novichok came from a permafrost area that had thawed and unleashed it on unsuspecting scientists. The Russians silenced locals by creating the Yamal sinkhole to keep the world off the scent, by "we" know that it was a spaceship that was found in the thawed permafrost area that had onboard the chemical. It had been jetisonned from another star system and was parrodied by Damon Lindelof (his mother is Jewish) and Jon Spaihts in the Alien prequel; Prometheus and as we all know they hide it in plain sight!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

....again just plucked from the web and followed a thread or two to make it fit the frame, again please keep an eye out for me as I could "disappear at any

[Mungler]

The problem with these conspiracies are that they are based on an awful lot of "what ifs" or "that's what they want you to think" and no evidence and back in the real world, it's evidence that counts.

So leaving aside everything else we have 2 Russians who landed in Gatwick from Moscow on Russian passports, returned 2 days later to Moscow from Heathrow and we have their faces and CCTV. None of us are able to forensically examine the CCTV or the passport scans etc but with the Government's allegation is "out" loud and proud there will be more to come.

Again, in this day and age it's very difficult to circumvent CCTV, passport security etc and so image and data capture follows. We shouldn't be surprised that faces have been recorded (and are now offered up). This is all rather Litvinenko again and there they identified the assassin, I just I really don't think Putin is that bothered.

What worries me is how the conspiracy theorists bend over backwards to ignore and dismiss what could actually be credible evidence. I tend to think that if Putin came on the telly tomorrow and said "yeah I ordered it because I felt like it" there would then be a whole host of theories about aliens, mind control and Putin being body doubled by Western governments.

On a 51% balance of probabilities do the tin hat brigade still think that Russia is not behind this?

[oowee]

Question is where does all this go next. Does it just drift away into the no longer important drawer? It's hardly on the scale of Ukraine. Maybe we have to wait for Putin's replacement to resolve the puzzle. 

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, Mungler said:

 

On a 51% balance of probabilities do the tin hat brigade still think that Russia is not behind this?

If I was could see some credible reason WHY Russia would want to carry out the 'attack' as our government and media have portrayed it, then we wouldnt be having this conversation.
I wouldnt bat an eyelid, I would accept what the media told me, as I do about 99% of the time.

The thing that immediately sprung out was the rush to apportion blame, without ANY investigation or evidence, and the complete lack of any real motive on Russias part.

I am not an unbalanced person, I dont believe in lizard people or flat earth, but my mind is open, I dont trust government, and I am very good at detecting peoples lies.
Nothing will change , the world will keep spinning, but I just dont believe the 'official' story.
Its getting too bizarre and complicated to be real, which is what usually happens when someone tries to mend a broken lie.

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

Question is where does all this go next. Does it just drift away into the no longer important drawer? It's hardly on the scale of Ukraine. Maybe we have to wait for Putin's replacement to resolve the puzzle. 

No where, its distraction politics.

[Hamster]

8 minutes ago, Mungler said:

What worries me is how the conspiracy theorists bend over backwards to ignore and dismiss what could actually be credible evidence. I tend to think that if Putin came on the telly tomorrow and said "yeah I ordered it because I felt like it" there would then be a whole host of theories about aliens, mind control and Putin being body doubled by Western governments.

 

There is no credible evidence, just stuff on the telly delivered with a straight face by journalists who long ago sold their souls to the devil, some are just incapable of ever doubting what the msm tells them. Remember the "Assad gassed his own people" malarky, all proved to be a load of Western fake news tosh but the sheeple fell for it. Remember the White Helmets receiving Oscars for "humanitarian" work, all proved to be fake news, they're head chopping heart eating terrorists caught on video and everyfing but still people believe murica and its allies, remember Isis ? Iran, Russia and Syria destroyed them, Israel is ON RECORD as admitting they cared for the scumbags wounded saying they did so for humanitarian reasons, when will some people wake up and smell the coffee ? 

A couple of Russians coming in and out of the country is not evidence, the absolute minimum a couple of professional assassin would do is 1) use a method that works 2) use heavy make up to disguise their faces, give us some credit. 

If Putin ever accepts responsibility I will apologise to you and every other non-conspiracy Pigeon massive, you have my word. 

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, Hamster said:

 Israel is ON RECORD as admitting they cared for the scumbags wounded saying they did so for humanitarian reasons, 

 

They are also on record as admitting to supplying them with arms.
Thats ISRAEL supplying ISIS and AL QUAEDA affiliated groups with weapons.

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/syria/with-eye-on-iran-israel-increases-military-support-for-syrian-rebels-1.5826348

[henry d]

13 minutes ago, Hamster said:

A couple of Russians coming in and out of the country is not evidence, the absolute minimum a couple of professional assassin would do is 1) use a method that works 2) use heavy make up to disguise their faces, give us some credit.

Come on someone had to do it

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

They are also on record as admitting to supplying them with arms.
Thats ISRAEL supplying ISIS and AL QUAEDA affiliated groups with weapons.

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/syria/with-eye-on-iran-israel-increases-military-support-for-syrian-rebels-1.5826348

(Tangent) So what, HMS Glasgow was hit by a British 1000lb bomb during the Falklands crisis dropped by an Argentinian A4

[Scully]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Not having actually killed anyone with a nerve toxin before, and never likely to , I will surmise.

Lets do the scenario, Putin ordered the attack, and specified a nerve agent MUST be  used.
Not just any nerve agent, but one specifically designed and made back in the 70s -80s  by Russia.

Target, an old has been swapped spy, residing in a sleepy English town.
First problem.
As soon as Mr Skripals sudden death is investigated, they are going to 'know' (Being as Porton Down is just up the road) that its a Russian designated weapon.
Collateral damage is highly likely.
The operatives sent to do the job, are known to the security services and are filmed and leave a paper trail all over the place, going straight back to Russia.

This is what we are told.
Now if Putin really wanted everyone to know what hed done thats fine, so why deny it?

How I would do it. (disclaimer- theoretically !)
Method 1.
Drive to Salisbury, outside of town swap plates off similar car, or use the park and ride, cover face as best, or use hat/hood.
Walk up to Boris's door, knock, when he answers, shoot in head.
Method 2
What am I on about !!
You want the bloke dead, so why go about it in such a convoluted way with nerve agents and spraying door knobs, making it 'blatently  obvious' who it is !
If you want some mystery, stick a note on the body saying 'From Russia with love' or 'Vlad woz ere'

Way too much drama to be a real assassination attempt, and thats just one of my many reasons why iTs BS.

You’re missing the point; the Russians don’t care who knows it’s them. They choose the methods they are well known for because they are still stuck in that Cold War mentality; they’re still killing gays for crying out loud. Like I said....it’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove. 

Let’s face it, the chances of them being caught was never very high whichever method they employed. I can’t understand why some feel the need to try to dress it up as something it isn’t.....unless they have a rational alternative of course. ?

[ditchman]

quite honestly im getting very board of the whole issue...........what does one expect when you dirty deal with  Military intel'....GRU....FBI...CIA.....Westminster....and all their dirty ..unsavory little habits............

its just unforgivable that it was done so messily and screwed up the lives of salisbury folk...........

[Rewulf]

40 minutes ago, henry d said:

Come on someone had to do it

(Tangent) So what, HMS Glasgow was hit by a British 1000lb bomb during the Falklands crisis dropped by an Argentinian A4

I think there is a bit of a difference between us selling weapons to Argentina (when we are not at war)  and  Israel selling arms to various anti Israeli terrorist organisations ?

 

29 minutes ago, Scully said:

You’re missing the point; the Russians don’t care who knows it’s them. They choose the methods they are well known for because they are still stuck in that Cold War mentality; they’re still killing gays for crying out loud. Like I said....it’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove. 

Let’s face it, the chances of them being caught was never very high whichever method they employed. I can’t understand why some feel the need to try to dress it up as something it isn’t.....unless they have a rational alternative of course. ?

What can we prove ?
They SAY its 2 blokes who work for Russian intelligence, came to Salisbury and used a deadly WMD, then chucked it away in a park.

4 months later its found and self administered on some more people, killing one.
Widely reported and assumed to be the same chemical, and method of application, the same container ?
 

Interview with Rowley[edit]

Rowley gave an interview to ITV News on 24 July, stating that he believed a sealed box of a recognisable brand of perfume, which he had found and given to Sturgess, was the source of the Novichok. His partner became sick "within 15 minutes" after spraying the "oily substance" onto her wrists before rubbing them together, under the assumption that it was perfume.^[31][32][33] He also stated that he came into contact with the chemical agent after some tipped onto his hands while attaching the plastic spray dispenser to the bottle, but had washed his hands soon after. They had used a knife to open the sealed packaging.^[31][32]

So, more than one container ? Or Rowley is lying, or got his story wrong ?

The OPCW report states the 'chemical' (It doesnt refer to it as Novichock) was of 'high purity'
This chemical has been all over his hands, but his symptoms dont appear for nearly 5 hours , but we are to believe that washing it off pretty much neutralised it ?!
Again, anyone remember NBC training for nerve toxins, how long do you get for vanilla stuff, this stuff is meant to be 10 x worse than what you were trained for.
3 weeks later hes on telly giving interviews.

[henry d]

Let’s look at it a bit differently; 2 Russians come to GB for a jolly time and go from Gatwick to stop at the City Stay hotel (Have a look on Tripadvisor, outwith the funny reports it is a bleak place), they go to Salisbury by train the next day and stayed for less than two hours (14-25 and left 16-10). Yulia Skripal arrived at Heathrow at 14-40pm the same day and presumably went to her father’s place in Salisbury.

11-48 the next day the same two Russians arrive in Salisbury and are seen on CCTV at various places until 13-50 they arrive back at the station, minus a bag they had on the way there.

Same day the Skripals drive into the town centre around 13-40, they then go to the Mill bar and then on to Zizi at 14-20 until 15-35 and 40 minutes later they are found seriously ill outside.

At 19-28 the Russians are going through security at Heathrow and leave the UK 3 hours later.

Couple of other things to consider; Sergei I believe was a member of the GRU, the two gentlemen from Russia are thought to be GRU men too. Have a look at the murder of Litvinenko and Politkovskaya and then the similarities of others such as Khokhlov and Shchekochikhin and the way state just denied any wrong doing and didn’t bother trying to offer any rational explanation for those implicated in the murders.I`m sticking with my original idea; it was the Israelis, the above is totally preposterous!

Edited September 6, 2018 by henry d

[Scully]

No one can prove any of the claims or disclaims made by any side, or by any one, but in the face of a lack of another alternative behind the event, or rational alternative explanation, and until one is presented,  I’ll opt for the most rational one. It doesn’t mean I have a closed mind, simply a logical one, which doesn’t see conspiracy theories without a compelling reason. 

[henry d]

31 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I think there is a bit of a difference between us selling weapons to Argentina (when we are not at war)  and  Israel selling arms to various anti Israeli terrorist organisations ?

 

What can we prove ?
They SAY its 2 blokes who work for Russian intelligence, came to Salisbury and used a deadly WMD, then chucked it away in a park.

4 months later its found and self administered on some more people, killing one.
Widely reported and assumed to be the same chemical, and method of application, the same container ?
 

Interview with Rowley[edit]

Rowley gave an interview to ITV News on 24 July, stating that he believed a sealed box of a recognisable brand of perfume, which he had found and given to Sturgess, was the source of the Novichok. His partner became sick "within 15 minutes" after spraying the "oily substance" onto her wrists before rubbing them together, under the assumption that it was perfume.^[31][32][33] He also stated that he came into contact with the chemical agent after some tipped onto his hands while attaching the plastic spray dispenser to the bottle, but had washed his hands soon after. They had used a knife to open the sealed packaging.^[31][32]

So, more than one container ? Or Rowley is lying, or got his story wrong ?

The OPCW report states the 'chemical' (It doesnt refer to it as Novichock) was of 'high purity'
This chemical has been all over his hands, but his symptoms dont appear for nearly 5 hours , but we are to believe that washing it off pretty much neutralised it ?!
Again, anyone remember NBC training for nerve toxins, how long do you get for vanilla stuff, this stuff is meant to be 10 x worse than what you were trained for.
3 weeks later hes on telly giving interviews.

Minimum of two containers, would be my guess, same as the reason we don`t see many people shooting game with single barreled guns? Also this may be the reason they are wanting to find the bag that didn`t go back with the two russins.

The skripals had probably had it on their hands too and were ill hours later, Sturgess put it on her wrists which have major blood vessels close to the skin unlike your palms

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

No one can prove any of the claims or disclaims made by any side, or by any one, but in the face of a lack of another alternative behind the event, or rational alternative explanation, and until one is presented,  I’ll opt for the most rational one. It doesn’t mean I have a closed mind, simply a logical one, which doesn’t see conspiracy theories without a compelling reason. 

It`s called Okkams razor

[islandgun]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

You’re missing the point; the Russians don’t care who knows it’s them. They choose the methods they are well known for because they are still stuck in that Cold War mentality; they’re still killing gays for crying out loud. Like I said....it’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove. 

Let’s face it, the chances of them being caught was never very high whichever method they employed. I can’t understand why some feel the need to try to dress it up as something it isn’t.....unless they have a rational alternative of course. ?

This ... its perfectly conceivable that the Russians wouldnt have cared who knew what they were up to, they were always going to get away with it,  further what possible reason would the British government have for killing an ex spy,  I do wonder how the perfume Nina Ricci is selling at the moment

[Rewulf]

30 minutes ago, henry d said:

.

The skripals had probably had it on their hands too and were ill hours later, Sturgess put it on her wrists which have major blood vessels close to the skin unlike your palms.

 

Onset

Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes.

[Scully]

42 minutes ago, henry d said:

 

It`s called Okkams razor

Just googled it....everyday's a school day. 

[panoma1]

Two Ruskies flew into UK a day or two before the Skripals (Russian nationals) were poisoned, they stayed in a London Hotel, where allegedly traces of Novichok were subsequently found, they went to Salisbury twice, two days running, the last visit they were identified on cctv close to the Skripals residence, on the day the Skripals became ill..........they flew back to Moscow later that day!

What did they come to the UK for (purpose of visit)? Why did they just visit Salisbury? What was the purpose of their visits to Salisbury? Why did they only visit the UK for a few days? why were they travelling to the UK using false names and using false papers?

Too many coincidences!

If the authorities cannot answer any of the above questions, or find an credible alternative reason for their presence (and its short duration!) it is difficult to see any other reason,but to bump Mr Skripal off!

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Onset

Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes.

Ah, but you don't want to be believing everything you read about. ?

[ordnance]

It wouldn't matter if Putin held his hands up and said it was us we did it, the tin foil hat brigade would still come up with some conspiracy. Some people just can not except that sometimes things are what they are. 

Quote

Another relevant cognitive bias is “projection.” People who endorse conspiracy theories may be more likely to engage in conspiratorial behaviors themselves, such as spreading rumors or tending to be suspicious of others' motives.

 

Edited September 6, 2018 by ordnance

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, Scully said:

Ah, but you don't want to be believing everything you read about. ?

Touche ?

 

10 minutes ago, ordnance said:

It wouldn't matter if Putin held his hands up and said it was us we did it, the tin foil hat brigade would still come up with some conspiracy. Some people just can not except that sometimes things are what they are. 

 

If he did, or indeed some rather more compelling evidence came up ,I would absolutely hold my hands up and apologize.

Until then ,it's just my opinion, I don't KNOW.

Its just an interesting discussion, with differing viewpoints. Let's keep it civil, and maybe this one won't get locked.

[ordnance]

Quote

If he did, or indeed some rather more compelling evidence came up ,I would absolutely hold my hands up and apologize.

What evidence would you need. ? The UK police security services and others have investigated what happened, their findings have being excepted by European American governments and their security services.   If you are waiting for the Russians to admit poisoning something they have a track record of , i doubt that will happen. 

Edited September 6, 2018 by ordnance