Alleged Russian assassins on TV

[Mungler]

You are crackers 

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, Mungler said:

You are crackers 

Good contribution/counter argument 

[timps]

23 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Dotting the i' s and crossing the t' s, we have covered ourselves.
We are supposed to be better than them, freer , more civilised , give them the bleeding samples !
Show them all the evidence, and not via the Guardian and Bellingcat, through official channels, do the job properly, instead of through conjecture and soundbites, its totally unprofessional .

 

Like what ?! The results of a physical lab investigation ?
Just cover/erase it off the system so it never happened , alter the results to show it was actually Marmite that was smeared on his knob 😄

I believe they were looking for the cover up, nothing more or less, because they dont trust the OPCW .
As far as leaving the convention ? That would only make it look worse wouldnt it ?

If you don’t trust the OPCW  then yes you leave stating you don’t trust it therefore you no longer want to be a part of it, however trying to defend  hacking it because you don’t believe in its findings makes it look far worse than ever leaving it.

As for looking for a cover up what do you expect them to find, a memo?

Dear all,

Please find attached PDF file explaining how we are going to frame the Russians by getting several other countries involved who will gain nothing and still keep it quiet apart from this widely distributed pdf memo stored on our servers that the Russians will never hack.

Regards

the Evil West

Or

Hack to sabotage and discredit the report in any way, if you mess with the results it can discredit it enough.

Regardless the only thing I need to know is the Russians try to hack it and that is not the normal behaviour of an innocent party regardless of their intentions or goals.

 

[panoma1]

48 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Dotting the i' s and crossing the t' s, we have covered ourselves.
We are supposed to be better than them, freer , more civilised , give them the bleeding samples !
Show them all the evidence, and not via the Guardian and Bellingcat, through official channels, do the job properly, instead of through conjecture and soundbites, its totally unprofessional .

I can think of no circumstances where, in a dispute between two party's, one party (especially one subject to criminal attack) would give everything away, in the certain knowledge the other party (accused of being the attacker) would give nothing in return?

Mind you, if you believe the media commentators, it sounds a bit like the negotiating position of the UK with the EU...😏

[oowee]

officers or otherwise affiliated with the GRU’s military unit 26165, their listing in a publicly accessible database may constitute one of the largest mass breaches of personal data of an intelligence service in recent history.

Now I see that Bellingcat have checked the ID of two of the hackers and confirmed that the names and details are of real people. They have then tracked down car ownership and addresses to confirm registration at the GRU HQ. They have then done a search of cars registered to that addy and identified 305 officers at that addy with there passport details on a public data base. 😂 you could not make this up. For all its bluff a bluster it's pretty clear that the support systems that underpin the state are not properly in place. 

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2018/10/04/305-car-registrations-may-point-massive-gru-security-breach/

[panoma1]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

officers or otherwise affiliated with the GRU’s military unit 26165, their listing in a publicly accessible database may constitute one of the largest mass breaches of personal data of an intelligence service in recent history.

Now I see that Bellingcat have checked the ID of two of the hackers and confirmed that the names and details are of real people. They have then tracked down car ownership and addresses to confirm registration at the GRU HQ. They have then done a search of cars registered to that addy and identified 305 officers at that addy with there passport details on a public data base. 😂 you could not make this up. For all its bluff a bluster it's pretty clear that the support systems that underpin the state are not properly in place. 

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2018/10/04/305-car-registrations-may-point-massive-gru-security-breach/

When someone on here remarked the crude attempt at assassination indicated it was not Russia that did it, as they would have made a better job of it! I remarked "I'm not convinced Russia do subtle, sophisticated or refined" I stick by that! Lol!

[Scully]

6 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

Its not a very good example of Russian efficiency.
Maybe trying to hoodwink us into believing they are all clumsy oafs, and I dont mean that disrespectfully.

The Russians aren't particularly efficient nor unclumsy oafs when it comes to matters of subterfuge. You only have to look at their history of assassination attempts ( some actually worked ) and the methods employed. The constant exposure of state sponsored doping in their athletes has been going on since the cold war era; they've never been that bothered when caught out. The Russians don't do subtlety or efficiency; they just do what they want then deny all knowledge.  Like I've said before, Putins regime are gangsters stuck in the cold war era. 

[Mungler]

That’s the point, the only shred of plausible doubt (and I hasten to add that’s still not evidence) that the tin foil hatters had (and which was pivotal to their overall position that ‘this wasn’t Russia) was that ‘the Russian intelligence services wouldn’t have done such a poor job of it’.

That suggestion can now be dismissed out of hand 😝

The tin foil hatters continued resistance to accept the situation as presented by the free West just shows that they are actually just as much the sheeple they accuse everyone else of being.

It’s funny because as this creeps ever further forward with evidence against Putin, they just can’t find it within themselves to admit that they are wrong, or our government which they dislike and distrust intensely was actually telling the truth and that’s the bit that sticks in their throats.

Well funny.

There’ll be more to come and more evidence so standby.

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

the only shred of plausible doubt

 

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

That suggestion can now be dismissed out of hand

😃

 

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

the situation as presented by the free West

😂

 

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

as this creeps ever further forward with evidence against Putin

 

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

our government which they dislike and distrust intensely was actually telling the truth

 

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

Well funny.

[m3vert]

On ‎05‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 16:32, Mungler said:

You are crackers 

It took you 14 pages to realize that? He is a fruit cake  An entertaining one to be fair, but a fruit cake none the less.

[Rewulf]

16 minutes ago, m3vert said:

It took you 14 pages to realize that? He is a fruit cake  An entertaining one to be fair, but a fruit cake none the less.

Crackers , fruit cake ? 
Youre making me hungry now ! 😁

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, m3vert said:

It took you 14 pages to realize that? He is a fruit cake  An entertaining one to be fair, but a fruit cake none the less.

It’s been a bizarre 14 pages seemingly arguing over the colour of orange juice.

But yes, the King of the tin foil hatters has claimed his throne.

 

[grrclark]

This thread is an interesting read although not particularly for the content, but rather how it paints the picture of the reasoning and thought process of some of those contributing.

For those who are interested in such things there are some pretty good examples of all sorts of cognitive biases in this thread, but notable in particular are the Semmelweis Reflex, Anecdotal Fallacy and Inductive Reasoning.

Semmelweis Reflex is simply discarding new information or evidence as it contradicts an established belief system.

Anecdotal Fallacy is rather what it sounds like, which is the substitution of anecdotal supposition in place of factual evidence.

Inductive Reasoning, which is a bit harder to explain, is when the premise of the argument is considered to be evidence to the truth of the conclusion.  Two simplified examples in the context of this thread.

1st one being;  Russia GRU agents are baddies who make Novichok (premise of the argument), therefor the inductive reasoning is that the truth of a nearly dead Russian traitor by Novichok can only mean Russia did it.

or, Russian GRU agents are highly skilled who make deadly military grade Novichok (premise of the argument), therefor the inductive reasoning says that the truth of a calamitous trail of evidence of left by the prime suspects and bodged end result of a nearly dead Russian traitor, his daughter, a sickly policeman and a dead alcoholic woman can only mean that the Russian's didn't do it.

[Rewulf]

I just find it interesting,and yes quite amusing, how, when you try to point out the flaws in the narrative, question the narrative, or try to see the other side of the argument. You suddenly feel the excitable wrath of certain individuals 😋 I bet they're amazing fun after a few beers 🤗.

It's perfectly ok to believe the official story, obviously no one is going to call you out on it, but don't pretend it's all factual evidence, when all you have done is read the paper.

It's also ok to not believe it too.

Did you believe the official story about the effects of what a leave vote would be ? Most papers and media promised apocalypse ! But most of you used common sense and reasoning to make your decision. The rest as they say , is and will be history.

If you're happy with what conclusion you have come do regarding Salisbury, that's fine, but don't consider yourself to have a moral or mental  high ground because of it, after all it's just a piece of news, and these are our opinions. 😊

[Scully]

Got it one; common sense and reasoning; probably based on what I now know to be an established belief system admittedly, but a belief system established for undeniable reasons.

 

[pinfireman]

On 04/10/2018 at 14:27, panoma1 said:

Cyber attack may be designed to steal, compromise, spoil, distract and create disruption not neccesarily to change or alter?

Why have the Ruskies not come up with any explanations or evidence to counter the allegations against them? Or pick out the "holes" you say are in the West"s story?......... To just say "not guilty guv" does not really inspire confidence in their innocence!

What other countries do or have done is not the issue here....we are discussing allegations concerning the conduct of the Russian State and their Military Intelligence

Correct!

On 04/10/2018 at 14:36, Rewulf said:

My point, you could not alter the findings even if they got 'in'
They could erase the records, wipe the servers, but they could not change the outcome.
So what was the point ?

The allegations against them are just that, allegations.
Skripal was a Russian spy, its the Russians
Novichok was used  (allegedly) its the Russians.
2 Russians went to Salisbury, its the Russians.
One of them looks like a GRU man, Its the Russians.
They tried to hack the OPCW , Ok that was the Russians 😂

We want it to be the Russians , so the evidence will be made to fit.
Look at it objectively, from the point of view that its a possible stitch up.
Its not as cut and dried as you think.

Or could it be you do NOT want it to be the Russians?

[oowee]

I reckon its partly down to the Russian program of trying to disrupt the west with propaganda fake news and unfortunately some are falling for it. I reckon there work had a big part to play in the Brexit vote.

[pinfireman]

On 04/10/2018 at 15:07, Rewulf said:

Youre not wrong, although the dividing up of Europe wasnt a land grab, as much as a deal done before the war was even won.

Like you say though ,what happened in Ukraine was a direct result of Western (mostly US ) meddling which spectacularly blew up in their face.
But some might call that a nutty conspiracy theory..
Look at everything thats happened since then though, civilian aircraft shot down, nerve gas attacks in Syria, Salisbury, various provocations and sabre rattling , all trying to paint a picture of the Russia bear threatening the peace of the world.
Whilst the US , with the support of NATO fuel and arm ISIS terrorism , and Israeli expansion/murder. (The US have just pledged 35 bn in military 'aid to Israel, why ?)
A continuing ,totally pointless war against goat herders in Afghanistan, and continued meddling in the stability of various nations including Libya  Iraq.

But its the Russians who are the bad people .

Were the Russians  "good people" when they invaded Afghanistan (and got their backsides kicked, in a very humliating fashion?  As for simple "goatherders", the Taliban government decided to give succour to Bin Laden, and his murderous mob, putting two fingers up to the Americans. They found out that did not come without a price............! The Eastern side of the Ukraine is occupied by ethnic Russdians, who got the land there when that great humanitarian, Stalin, starved 5 million Ukrainian peasants to death in the early 1930,s.....he then filled the  area with landless Russian peasants, who then owed allegiance to Russia, not the Ukraine. Yes, the West may have encouraged the Ukraine to alter it,s allegiance to the West and the EU,...........but that surely is the right of that country to do so? It,s not ALL a one way street, as you sometimes paint it...........

P.S We actually agree on many topics, but not this one!  :-)

On 04/10/2018 at 15:11, oowee said:

Interesting that they were not detained and put on trial. 

Diplomatic immunity!

On 05/10/2018 at 10:06, Rewulf said:

Yes ,why, is that beyond your reasoning ?

If someone accuses you of something, they need to provide some evidence, some PROOF.
You, because youve read about it in the papers and seen it on TV , have all the proof you need to make your very educated decision 😃

But if it was you being accused, and (lets say for argument) you really hadnt done it, might want to examine the evidence, the 'burden of proof' as it were.
When the accuser refuses to share the evidence, but merely supplies various titbits of information to the media, a so called trial by media ensues.
YOU have based your assumption of guilt on what has been shown in the media, and soundbites of various politicians hoping for their spot in the limelight.
You completely ignore the accusers agenda, because you dont want to believe they are telling you lies, and you are swallowing them.

The bizarre nature of the plot, its ensuing failure, and the rush to accuse a state that the west is diametrically opposed to, doesnt ring any alarm bells ?
A supposedly independent, open sourced, unpaid and unbiased organisation like Bellingcat has to do the work of British state intelligence with a billion £ budget, and that doesnt sound odd ?
I couldnt give a monkeys whether Russia did it or not, but the way this whole matter has been handled stinks of lies.

You can call me what you like, I have very thick skin, but to believe the British media or politicians, without taking an objective look at the evidence, and more importantly , their 'performance' is not something I can do.

But happy to believe the Russian media, and the Russian government?

[oowee]

8 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

 

Diplomatic immunity!

 

Is that the case? I did not realise they were on passes. 🙂

 

[pinfireman]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

I reckon its partly down to the Russian program of trying to disrupt the west with propaganda fake news and unfortunately some are falling for it. I reckon there work had a big part to play in the Brexit vote.

That really is a stretch too far.......usual garbage from a Remoaner..........

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Is that the case? I did not realise they were on passes. 🙂

 

You mean they were not?

[Mungler]

So then, the second ‘Russian tourist’ has been unmasked as a doctor working for the GRU.

So, in this now very very very elaborate false flag / cover up or whatever you want to call it, it appears that our government has gone to implausible mind bending lengths to ‘frame’ Putin / Russia....

......or it could be that it was Putin / Russia all along 😆😆

Come on the tin foil hat brigade how do you explain this latest revalation away?

Ready to grasp the simple reality of the situation and the fact that Putin had a go at trying to bump someone off?

 

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

9 minutes ago, Mungler said:

So then, the second ‘Russian tourist’ has been unmasked as a doctor working for the GRU.

So, in this now very very very elaborate false flag / cover up or whatever you want to call it, it appears that our government has gone to implausible mind bending lengths to ‘frame’ Putin / Russia....

......or it could be that it was Putin / Russia all along 😆😆

Come on the tin foil hat brigade how do you explain this latest revalation away?

Ready to grasp the simple reality of the situation and the fact that Putin had a go at trying to bump someone off?

Just needs the word "again" at the end of your last sentence.

[Gordon R]

Quote

 I reckon there work had a big part to play in the Brexit vote.

I think you have it there. Had the Russians not interfered in the vote, the leave margin would have been at least tripled.

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

I think you have it there. Had the Russians not interfered in the vote, the leave margin would have been at least tripled.

I wonder if it was the same GRU unit that made us all want to leave the EU ?

[12gauge82]

On 07/10/2018 at 16:51, oowee said:

I reckon its partly down to the Russian program of trying to disrupt the west with propaganda fake news and unfortunately some are falling for it. I reckon there work had a big part to play in the Brexit vote.

I reckon that's just more remoaner lies.