Whitefronted Goose?

[albifrons]

On 29 September 2018 at 18:06, panoma1 said:

They used to frequent the saltmarsh out from Slimbridge, I saw them there from the hide, many years ago, allegedly that is why Peter Scott set up The Wildfowl Trust there!.........I don't know if they still use that marsh? 

The Greenland Race (red listed!) migrate, in ever diminishing numbers, to the Dyfi estuary in Central West Wales, where there has been a voluntary moratorium by Wildfowlers, on shooting them, for over forty years!

That moritorium now stretches over the whole of Wales.

I have never seen whitefront son our marsh, but they have been present there many years ago.

[Penelope]

On 29/09/2018 at 14:11, ratty1 said:

Gloucester wildfowlers get them on the Severn . Not many , if memory serves me right they get get a skene of 30 ISH that return each year. 

Slimbridge's New Grounds, used to be a haven for them. It's why Peter Scott bought Slimbridge.

On 29/09/2018 at 18:02, Ajarrett said:

We used to get 1,000+ in Kent every winter. Not any more. Still reckon on about 200 though, and with luck can get one. Last three I have shot have been in North Norfolk. Very much potluck. KWCA marshes still my best bet for one.

 

I Know Mick Hunt used to chase them.

[Penelope]

I have seen them on the Ouse Washes back in the early 90's and again around the same time on the Crouch in Essex. I also saw around 200 on a wheat field in mid Hampshire on January day in 2003.

[widgeon man]

Agree with Boyd had both Greenland and European white fronts in Norfolk/cambs

[m greeny]

Just had an email off one of the club's I'm in and BASC a has asked clubs in Lancashire and Cumbria to agree to a voluntary ban on shooting whitefronts. Looks like even if I get a chance I won't be able to put the gun on um

[Ayagunner]

Going by some of the clips on YouTube how the Russian and east Europeans are going at them I don't think it will be many years before they are off the quarry list altogether 

[harkom]

23 hours ago, m greeny said:

Just had an email off one of the club's I'm in and BASC a has asked clubs in Lancashire and Cumbria to agree to a voluntary ban on shooting whitefronts. Looks like even if I get a chance I won't be able to put the gun on um

Why doesn't BAsC   .... Just omit the letter S from the misnomer?

[andrewluke]

11 minutes ago, harkom said:

Why doesn't BAsC   .... Just omit the letter S from the misnomer?

why??

[6.5x55SE]

21 hours ago, Ayagunner said:

Going by some of the clips on YouTube how the Russian and east Europeans are going at them I don't think it will be many years before they are off the quarry list altogether 

As you are probably aware the Whitefront Goose is the most numerous Goose in the world . Peter Scott done a study ( when he was still shooting ) to find if/what was the difference between the Greenland and European Whitefronts short answer they are one of the same another fact he found as i to personally have witnessed after death a Greenland Orange Bill will turn more Pink with only small trace's of Orange and a European Pink Bill the pink will fade and start showing trace's of Orange.

To a inexperienced shooting they could well think they have shot one or the other BUT with experience you can see several differents eg GWF heavy Bill like a Greylag very heavily black cheast barring almost black in old adult birds and a heavy goose again migratory Greylag size where as a EWF small neat Bill like a Pinkfoot not as heavily black cheast barring and slightly smaller in size than a Pinkfoot.

Most ( not all ) of the EWF shot Russia and eastern block countries are shot on migration passing through to there wintering ground in Germany Belgium France and Holland where there are Thousands upon thousands.

[harrycatcat1]

11 hours ago, 6.5x55SE said:

As you are probably aware the Whitefront Goose is the most numerous Goose in the world . Peter Scott done a study ( when he was still shooting ) to find if/what was the difference between the Greenland and European Whitefronts short answer they are one of the same another fact he found as i to personally have witnessed after death a Greenland Orange Bill will turn more Pink with only small trace's of Orange and a European Pink Bill the pink will fade and start showing trace's of Orange.

To a inexperienced shooting they could well think they have shot one or the other BUT with experience you can see several differents eg GWF heavy Bill like a Greylag very heavily black cheast barring almost black in old adult birds and a heavy goose again migratory Greylag size where as a EWF small neat Bill like a Pinkfoot not as heavily black cheast barring and slightly smaller in size than a Pinkfoot.

Most ( not all ) of the EWF shot Russia and eastern block countries are shot on migration passing through to there wintering ground in Germany Belgium France and Holland where there are Thousands upon thousands.

Very informative, clearly thats years of experience, thanks 👍

Edited to say no I didn't know any of that.

Edited October 3, 2018 by harrycatcat1
Spelling

[Penelope]

12 hours ago, 6.5x55SE said:

As you are probably aware the Whitefront Goose is the most numerous Goose in the world . Peter Scott done a study ( when he was still shooting ) to find if/what was the difference between the Greenland and European Whitefronts short answer they are one of the same another fact he found as i to personally have witnessed after death a Greenland Orange Bill will turn more Pink with only small trace's of Orange and a European Pink Bill the pink will fade and start showing trace's of Orange.

To a inexperienced shooting they could well think they have shot one or the other BUT with experience you can see several differents eg GWF heavy Bill like a Greylag very heavily black cheast barring almost black in old adult birds and a heavy goose again migratory Greylag size where as a EWF small neat Bill like a Pinkfoot not as heavily black cheast barring and slightly smaller in size than a Pinkfoot.

Most ( not all ) of the EWF shot Russia and eastern block countries are shot on migration passing through to there wintering ground in Germany Belgium France and Holland where there are Thousands upon thousands.

He conducted his search for the Whitefronts in Greenland with Christopher Dalgety.

[Ayagunner]

21 hours ago, 6.5x55SE said:

As you are probably aware the Whitefront Goose is the most numerous Goose in the world . Peter Scott done a study ( when he was still shooting ) to find if/what was the difference between the Greenland and European Whitefronts short answer they are one of the same another fact he found as i to personally have witnessed after death a Greenland Orange Bill will turn more Pink with only small trace's of Orange and a European Pink Bill the pink will fade and start showing trace's of Orange.

To a inexperienced shooting they could well think they have shot one or the other BUT with experience you can see several differents eg GWF heavy Bill like a Greylag very heavily black cheast barring almost black in old adult birds and a heavy goose again migratory Greylag size where as a EWF small neat Bill like a Pinkfoot not as heavily black cheast barring and slightly smaller in size than a Pinkfoot.

Most ( not all ) of the EWF shot Russia and eastern block countries are shot on migration passing through to there wintering ground in Germany Belgium France and Holland where there are Thousands upon thousands.

Great reading yet again and great knowledge from you, thanks

 

[6.5x55SE]

Thank you Harrycatcat1 and ayagunner. The Whitefront Goose is my favourite goose and have been very lucky to have been shooting when the British Isles got good numbers each winter and also it was legal to shoot GWF in Scotland. In those far off days one particular year they even made the news due to the Numbers . For day's it was reported about the Large numbers of " Russian Geese " obviously EWF even the Ouse Wash's had 450+ from just before Christmas till 3rd week of January a Coastal Marsh i shot at the time had just shy of 4 thousand . Fantastic sights and sounds I'll never forget.

[harrycatcat1]

55 minutes ago, 6.5x55SE said:

Thank you Harrycatcat1 and ayagunner. The Whitefront Goose is my favourite goose and have been very lucky to have been shooting when the British Isles got good numbers each winter and also it was legal to shoot GWF in Scotland. In those far off days one particular year they even made the news due to the Numbers . For day's it was reported about the Large numbers of " Russian Geese " obviously EWF even the Ouse Wash's had 450+ from just before Christmas till 3rd week of January a Coastal Marsh i shot at the time had just shy of 4 thousand . Fantastic sights and sounds I'll never forget.

👍

[Ayagunner]

Have only ever shot 1 EWF back in 2003, had a misfire with the second barrel so the left and right at them was gone, didn't let the dog retrieve it in case it spoilt the plumage, magical bird, if I am lucky to ever get another I will have it stuffed and mounted 

[fandango]

On ‎01‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 21:35, m greeny said:

Just had an email off one of the club's I'm in and BASC a has asked clubs in Lancashire and Cumbria to agree to a voluntary ban on shooting whitefronts. Looks like even if I get a chance I won't be able to put the gun on um

Mark

just seen 2 dozen heading toward your marsh...………. 

[marsh man]

22 hours ago, 6.5x55SE said:

Thank you Harrycatcat1 and ayagunner. The Whitefront Goose is my favourite goose and have been very lucky to have been shooting when the British Isles got good numbers each winter and also it was legal to shoot GWF in Scotland. In those far off days one particular year they even made the news due to the Numbers . For day's it was reported about the Large numbers of " Russian Geese " obviously EWF even the Ouse Wash's had 450+ from just before Christmas till 3rd week of January a Coastal Marsh i shot at the time had just shy of 4 thousand . Fantastic sights and sounds I'll never forget.

As already stated , some very interesting facts about the Whitefronted geese , and as you say in seeing large numbers , Fantastic sights and sounds you will never forget .

We also had large numbers and I was lucky to just catch the beginning of the end when it come to seeing and hearing numbers running into the 1000s.

Here are a few facts ..... 

By the mid 1930s , the White fronts were beginning to out number the Pink - feet . On December 5th 1938 R H Harrison estimated some 3000 passing over Breydon heading for the Halvergate levels . Wartime restrictions made it impossible to obtain regular winter estimates between 1939 and 1945 , but in 1946 over 5000 were wintering on the levels .

Following exceptionally cold weather on the continent , one morning towards the end of January 1947 , Harrison saw skein after skein of these geese coming into the marshes from Scroby sands at first light , This arrival occupied almost an hour , the geese appearing to completely cover two marshes , a very conservative estimate was between 3500 and 4000 birds .

Moving on to 1964 it was recorded an abnormal passage movement was recorded on January 25th when over 4000 White fronts were heading towards the levels .

Numbers started to get less from the mid 60s up unto the present day , although just about every year one or two end up in fowlers bags .

There is a mention of the Lesser White Fronted goose with only the odd ones turning up , a adult male was shot on the Breydon marshes on January 24th 1949 was the first one recorded in Norfolk and is now in Norwich Castle Museum , since then there have only been 5 or 6 more recordings .

 

[6.5x55SE]

1 hour ago, marsh man said:

As already stated , some very interesting facts about the Whitefronted geese , and as you say in seeing large numbers , Fantastic sights and sounds you will never forget .

We also had large numbers and I was lucky to just catch the beginning of the end when it come to seeing and hearing numbers running into the 1000s.

Here are a few facts ..... 

By the mid 1930s , the White fronts were beginning to out number the Pink - feet . On December 5th 1938 R H Harrison estimated some 3000 passing over Breydon heading for the Halvergate levels . Wartime restrictions made it impossible to obtain regular winter estimates between 1939 and 1945 , but in 1946 over 5000 were wintering on the levels .

Following exceptionally cold weather on the continent , one morning towards the end of January 1947 , Harrison saw skein after skein of these geese coming into the marshes from Scroby sands at first light , This arrival occupied almost an hour , the geese appearing to completely cover two marshes , a very conservative estimate was between 3500 and 4000 birds .

Moving on to 1964 it was recorded an abnormal passage movement was recorded on January 25th when over 4000 White fronts were heading towards the levels .

Numbers started to get less from the mid 60s up unto the present day , although just about every year one or two end up in fowlers bags .

There is a mention of the Lesser White Fronted goose with only the odd ones turning up , a adult male was shot on the Breydon marshes on January 24th 1949 was the first one recorded in Norfolk and is now in Norwich Castle Museum , since then there have only been 5 or 6 more recordings .

 

Another interesting fact i find amazing IF and a Big IF we get a good long hard spell of hard weather most if not all of the old traditional Haunts get good numbers of Whitefronts. As for the Lesser Whitefront i personally know of One shot under the Moon on the Norfolk Coast and two shot on Wigtown Bay ( Scotland ) a R&L again under the Moon 🤭

[Reabrook]

Some interesting numbers and detail in this document upto 1965

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00063656809476173

 

[marsh man]

12 hours ago, 6.5x55SE said:

Another interesting fact i find amazing IF and a Big IF we get a good long hard spell of hard weather most if not all of the old traditional Haunts get good numbers of Whitefronts. As for the Lesser Whitefront i personally know of One shot under the Moon on the Norfolk Coast and two shot on Wigtown Bay ( Scotland ) a R&L again under the Moon 🤭

One of the reasons spoke about for the declining numbers was the old drainage mills being replaced with the modern pumping stations which can operate 24hrs a day in any weather conditions and not just relying on wind power like the old Windmills had to .

This situation changed for the better when the R S P B bought a big chunk of the Halvergate levels and started to graze the land and control the water levels to encourage the numbers of wildfowl returning back in numbers that were seen just after the war .

Although numbers go up and down from one year to the next , overall there is a steady increase in both Pinks , Whitefronts , all species of ducks and even Bean geese are now turning up from time to time , so from my point of view , as for wildfowling we are far better off with the R S P B buying and managing  the land than if it was sold for agriculture .

[Diss4111]

8 minutes ago, marsh man said:

One of the reasons spoke about for the declining numbers was the old drainage mills being replaced with the modern pumping stations which can operate 24hrs a day in any weather conditions and not just relying on wind power like the old Windmills had to .

This situation changed for the better when the R S P B bought a big chunk of the Halvergate levels and started to graze the land and control the water levels to encourage the numbers of wildfowl returning back in numbers that were seen just after the war .

Although numbers go up and down from one year to the next , overall there is a steady increase in both Pinks , Whitefronts , all species of ducks and even Bean geese are now turning up from time to time , so from my point of view , as for wildfowling we are far better off with the R S P B buying and managing  the land than if it was sold for agriculture .

I fully agree with the comment about the RSPB. Since they bought a large area of salt marsh as a reserve. All bird numbers have increased and I have not seen as many geese in my life as i have seen this season.

[marsh man]

6 hours ago, Diss4111 said:

I fully agree with the comment about the RSPB. Since they bought a large area of salt marsh as a reserve. All bird numbers have increased and I have not seen as many geese in my life as i have seen this season.

If you think you have seen a lot of geese this early in the season . just wait till the big numbers come on the marshes once the cattle have been taking off, normally from the beginning of November, although this year with the shortage of winter feed they might be left as long as there is grass to eat .

Hopefully one or two will have your name and address on , GOOD LUCK.

[riptide]

Hi Guys  Lets show you the facts  WWT do surveys on all geese   so take a look  

Only 1 GWF counted in England -THIS IS  not a proportionate response to an non-linked problem. 
Table 1. Autumn and spring counts in Britain and Ireland, 2016/17 (includes substituted counts; see full report) (From Fox et al. 2017).

Region	Autumn Census	Spring Census
Orkney	78	73
Caithness	259	260
Western Isles	184	218
Inner Hebrides	27	29
Lochaber/North Argyll	1,159	1,479
South Argyll	2,726	2,984
Islay	5,585	6,141
Dumfries & Galloway	281	377
Wales	25	36
England	1	0
Other irregular sites (Scotland)	1	0
Britain total	10,326	11,597
Donegal	846	875
North Central	93	99
Mayo	90	91
Mayo/Galway Uplands	43	59
Galway Lowlands	175	148
Clare/Limerick	60	60
Shannon headwaters	114	100
Middle & Lower Shannon	264	281
Midlands	218	199
Wexford	6,977	7,047
Ireland total	8,880	8,959
Population estimate	–	20,556

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 6:07 PM - Yesterday #6

Sorry Guys,,,,,, but Hey Ho lets crack a nut with a fercking great sledge hammer ,,Look at table above for latest counts and between autumn and spring we have a 10% increase  but even so ONLY ONE GREENLAND WHITE FRONTED SEEN IN ENGLAND  JUST ONE IS seen in ENGLANDSHIRE  so ban shooting of all White Fronts ??? The European White Fronted is a stable increasing population with no problem of taking a sustainable harvest ! In fact we regular see the European whites along the East side of England and are a quarry specious with no threat to the numbers ,,,,,, BASC whose side are you actually on ?  No white front shooting in Scotland or N Irland and a Mortuorum in wales that has been so successful its backed by government !!  There is no Problem !!! Shooting has no effect on overall population as they dont get shot !!!!  the Problem lies in their breeding grounds  not here in UK ..in fact look at how many in Wales 25/26  come on much more important ways to help the GWF !!!

[6.5x55SE]

2 hours ago, riptide said:

Hi Guys  Lets show you the facts  WWT do surveys on all geese   so take a look  

Only 1 GWF counted in England -THIS IS  not a proportionate response to an non-linked problem. 
Table 1. Autumn and spring counts in Britain and Ireland, 2016/17 (includes substituted counts; see full report) (From Fox et al. 2017).

Region	Autumn Census	Spring Census
Orkney	78	73
Caithness	259	260
Western Isles	184	218
Inner Hebrides	27	29
Lochaber/North Argyll	1,159	1,479
South Argyll	2,726	2,984
Islay	5,585	6,141
Dumfries & Galloway	281	377
Wales	25	36
England	1	0
Other irregular sites (Scotland)	1	0
Britain total	10,326	11,597
Donegal	846	875
North Central	93	99
Mayo	90	91
Mayo/Galway Uplands	43	59
Galway Lowlands	175	148
Clare/Limerick	60	60
Shannon headwaters	114	100
Middle & Lower Shannon	264	281
Midlands	218	199
Wexford	6,977	7,047
Ireland total	8,880	8,959
Population estimate	–	20,556

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 6:07 PM - Yesterday #6

Sorry Guys,,,,,, but Hey Ho lets crack a nut with a fercking great sledge hammer ,,Look at table above for latest counts and between autumn and spring we have a 10% increase  but even so ONLY ONE GREENLAND WHITE FRONTED SEEN IN ENGLAND  JUST ONE IS seen in ENGLANDSHIRE  so ban shooting of all White Fronts ??? The European White Fronted is a stable increasing population with no problem of taking a sustainable harvest ! In fact we regular see the European whites along the East side of England and are a quarry specious with no threat to the numbers ,,,,,, BASC whose side are you actually on ?  No white front shooting in Scotland or N Irland and a Mortuorum in wales that has been so successful its backed by government !!  There is no Problem !!! Shooting has no effect on overall population as they dont get shot !!!!  the Problem lies in their breeding grounds  not here in UK ..in fact look at how many in Wales 25/26  come on much more important ways to help the GWF !!!

A few years ago i got into let's say a rather heated debate about GWF  ( 1 ) as there was  more around than being made to believe.

( 2) the ban on shooting them has had hardly if any effect on them .

( 3 ) it has been stated numerous times Fox's taking Adult along with young gooslings and the increase in Canada geese has/is the cause for decline.

As for " ONE GWF " in England then " 0 " that 100% is total Rubbish forgetting the ones publicly reported photographed on various internet sights i have personally seen and shot them from Pinkfeet admittedly between 1-3 GWF seen but 2016-2017 season for 6-8 weeks 17 GWF was feeding with Pinkfeet daily on sugar beet on a Estate i control Geese on . The Estate had numerous problems with up to 30 vehicles+ occupants blocking roads and walking fields to watch the Geese . I'm sure Motty can remember i took him for a successful Moon flight ( did tell him it was like finding a needle in a haystack ) the field in Question had 8-9 thousand Pinks 5 EWF 3 Barnacle  2 GWF 7 Taiga Bean and 1 Todd's Canada goose after our successful flight we left with geese pouring into the Field inspite of our shooting the next day the field was smothered in thousands of Geese ( Motty saw them ) within 2 days the field was empty No not due our shooting but the constant harassment of so called Bird Watchers/Protectors Yet guess who got/would be blamed us the shooter's which really makes my blood boil

[motty]

6 minutes ago, 6.5x55SE said:

A few years ago i got into let's say a rather heated debate about GWF  ( 1 ) as there was  more around than being made to believe.

( 2) the ban on shooting them has had hardly if any effect on them .

( 3 ) it has been stated numerous times Fox's taking Adult along with young gooslings and the increase in Canada geese has/is the cause for decline.

As for " ONE GWF " in England then " 0 " that 100% is total Rubbish forgetting the ones publicly reported photographed on various internet sights i have personally seen and shot them from Pinkfeet admittedly between 1-3 GWF seen but 2016-2017 season for 6-8 weeks 17 GWF was feeding with Pinkfeet daily on sugar beet on a Estate i control Geese on . The Estate had numerous problems with up to 30 vehicles+ occupants blocking roads and walking fields to watch the Geese . I'm sure Motty can remember i took him for a successful Moon flight ( did tell him it was like finding a needle in a haystack ) the field in Question had 8-9 thousand Pinks 5 EWF 3 Barnacle  2 GWF 7 Taiga Bean and 1 Todd's Canada goose after our successful flight we left with geese pouring into the Field inspite of our shooting the next day the field was smothered in thousands of Geese ( Motty saw them ) within 2 days the field was empty No not due our shooting but the constant harassment of so called Bird Watchers/Protectors Yet guess who got/would be blamed us the shooter's which really makes my blood boil

Yes, I remember it well. It was a very successful flight (was only thinking about it a couple of days ago). I drove past the field the day after, and I couldn't believe the amount of cars parked around it.