How far will a shotgun kill game.

[wymberley]

15 minutes ago, islandgun said:

I asked the same question in the locked thread, wymberly pointed out that "extreme 4's and 3/4 choke at 50 metres the last shot arrives 45ms after the first"

This looks - so far anyway - like being an entirely different thread to THAT one, so I'll come l clean. What I said is perfectly true but it's just as irrelevant as a 90 yard pheasant so I thought it would be an appropriate comment in the circumstances. Not a well person at the moment and don't have a scanner but in due course I'll see if I can photo' the document and post it - it's contained in the final report from the BRL to Defra. It's worth noting that the bird doesn't fly through the pattern - the pattern flies through the bird. The bulk of the pattern - the vast majority of it - that does the damage starts a little way back from the first few pellets passed the post and ends quite a way before the last stragglers which are well spread out. This mass from front to back takes c18 ms to pass a given point and which will be realised that in that time a 40 mph bird will have travelled just c12".

Another point about the pattern plate is chicken or egg. Does the pattern plate dictate what will be the effective range? Or when realising what the effective range for a given combination of gun and cartridge seemed to be, did someone decide to find out why and had a look at a "target" placed some distance away and noted the spread of pellets? Then thought some more and realised that if a gun was to print a similar distribution then it too would be effective at that same range. You decide.

[islandgun]

11 minutes ago, wymberley said:

This looks - so far anyway - like being an entirely different thread to THAT one, so I'll come l clean. What I said is perfectly true but it's just as irrelevant as a 90 yard pheasant so I thought it would be an appropriate comment in the circumstances. Not a well person at the moment and don't have a scanner but in due course I'll see if I can photo' the document and post it - it's contained in the final report from the BRL to Defra. It's worth noting that the bird doesn't fly through the pattern - the pattern flies through the bird. The bulk of the pattern - the vast majority of it - that does the damage starts a little way back from the first few pellets passed the post and ends quite a way before the last stragglers which are well spread out. This mass from front to back takes c18 ms to pass a given point and which will be realised that in that time a 40 mph bird will have travelled just c12".

Another point about the pattern plate is chicken or egg. Does the pattern plate dictate what will be the effective range? Or when realising what the effective range for a given combination of gun and cartridge seemed to be, did someone decide to find out why and had a look at a "target" placed some distance away and noted the spread of pellets? Then thought some more and realised that if a gun was to print a similar distribution then it too would be effective at that same range. You decide.

Thanks for your reply. I certainly was not disputing your point which i now consider fact. just drawing jdogs attention to a conversation i had had already..I wish you a speedy recovery and look forward to more facts as they are un-earthed, cheers IG

[motty]

59 minutes ago, yickdaz said:

That's the thing with pattern plates or card in this case  it might be stationery but you can still shoot high, low, left, right, of it and that will effect where the centre of the pattern hits, another shooter could of got totally different results shooting next to him with the same gun and ammo 

Very true. A pattern is only representative of what is likely to happen. This is why it is always worth shooting your pattern plate multiple times at the same distance and at different distances.

Some folk completely dismiss the patterning of gun/cartridges, but I believe it to be most revealing. It is one of the reasons that I started shooting full chokes for almost all of my live quarry shooting. I wasn't happy with the patterns I was getting at longer ranges with more open chokes. That is not to say that good, tight and even patterns cannot be achieved with more open chokes.

I think I may end up doing some in-depth testing with different shot types at different ranges. This may take the form of a video.

[figgy]

Look forward to watching it Motty

[yickdaz]

10 hours ago, motty said:

Very true. A pattern is only representative of what is likely to happen. This is why it is always worth shooting your pattern plate multiple times at the same distance and at different distances.

Some folk completely dismiss the patterning of gun/cartridges, but I believe it to be most revealing. It is one of the reasons that I started shooting full chokes for almost all of my live quarry shooting. I wasn't happy with the patterns I was getting at longer ranges with more open chokes. That is not to say that good, tight and even patterns cannot be achieved with more open chokes.

I think I may end up doing some in-depth testing with different shot types at different ranges. This may take the form of a video.

be interesting to see that vid, but I,m with you on the choke side of things I won't shoot less than half choke the only 3 I use are 1/2  3/4  and full  depending on the type of shooting decoying or flighting, etc but you get a feel for what the maximum  range you can bring birds down at and theres no better test than actually doing it in the field been shooting a lot of steel this last summer  and after over 1000 carts later and 4 different  types of steel or  brand  I have only just  settled on a cart I actually have full confidence in AND SUITS ME  a few shots at a pattern plate doesn't give you the killing power and consistency of a cart but killing 10 birds clean  at 40 yards  does  pattern plates have there place I,m not knocking it just that I,m a fan of trying them out on live quarry to get a true picture

[figgy]

Yikdaz what steel cartridge did you settle on. 

[islandgun]

Just back from patterning some steel, thought it would be interesting to fire off some home load lead 70mm 40 gram 3's, full choke,  Fabarm Euro S/A,   board was two sheets of backing paper 4ftx4ft stapled to ply, stiff cross wind, measured distances

1 @  100yds =  10 hits

1 @     90yds  = 14 hits

1 @    90 yds = 15 hits

1 @    45 yds = 133  hits

The long distance patterns were completely random all over the board,  100yds is a very long way and i was surprised to hit the board at all

 

 

[yickdaz]

29 minutes ago, figgy said:

Yikdaz what steel cartridge did you settle on. 

[wymberley]

Step-son arrived and did the business.

It's immediately obvious why 40-45 yards has always been considered as a more sensibly effective maximum range. Sorry, Guys, this was a struggle - problem with hands at the mo'.

Edited November 10, 2018 by wymberley

[TIGHTCHOKE]

As long as you're still getting on here Mate.

Just proves what we are mostly happy to accept!

[ditchman]

i beieve during the victorian times an experiment was carried out ...as the result of a conversation between a group of local worthy's.............

the topic was shot string shape of...........to that effect....one of the worthy's owned a train co........and on a day off covered one of the carriges in paper...got the train to go top speed and when it passed a certain point it set off a shotgun ..bolted in a clamp on the embankment........

dont know what the out come was...suppose they could calcul;ate  distance ...speed....blah blah blah....to show the shape of a shotgun cloud of shot..........

i dont imagine virgin trains would be up for a repeat experiment..

[wymberley]

35 minutes ago, ditchman said:

i beieve during the victorian times an experiment was carried out ...as the result of a conversation between a group of local worthy's.............

the topic was shot string shape of...........to that effect....one of the worthy's owned a train co........and on a day off covered one of the carriges in paper...got the train to go top speed and when it passed a certain point it set off a shotgun ..bolted in a clamp on the embankment........

dont know what the out come was...suppose they could calcul;ate  distance ...speed....blah blah blah....to show the shape of a shotgun cloud of shot..........

i dont imagine virgin trains would be up for a repeat experiment..

They've all had a go at one time or another. A Mr Griffiths of Schultz and his spinning disc and Burrard with his lorry.

[figgy]

5 hours ago, yickdaz said:

I have a slab of the same in 34 g 3 shot for ducks on the marsh, had two nice gadwall with them. 

[Perazzishot]

The 34g RC Hyperfast Steel Camouflage are better but very hard to get hold of. I had to import them by special request to get them.

Best non toxic I have used in 2 and shot, used over 8000 in the last 3 seasons.

[yickdaz]

1 hour ago, figgy said:

I have a slab of the same in 34 g 3 shot for ducks on the marsh, had two nice gadwall with them. 

Yeah they are good, gamebore super steel are another good steel cart but I think the rc just edge them

[6.5x55SE]

6 hours ago, yickdaz said:

I'd love to have a £ for every Goose I've shot with those in 3's 👍

[figgy]

Wish the geese where I shoot would come close enough to use the 3 shot carts. In past years they have and taken them with 3s but last few years there shy. 

[6.5x55SE]

12 hours ago, figgy said:

Wish the geese where I shoot would come close enough to use the 3 shot carts. In past years they have and taken them with 3s but last few years there shy. 

No closer down here mate. I just have the knack of more times than not of " Nutting Em " stick it it under the chin. I had a bloke from Lancashire out with me under the Moon who normally shoots Pylon Hopping Geese i managed to convert Steel 3's ( weld splatter as he called it ) kill at range. IMHO if you are confident and killing more than you are missing/wounding the use what ever suits Yourself. I had a quick flight this morning with my old AYA no3 Mag 2 R/L at 40-50 yrd flighting Greylag 32grm Gamebore Steel 3's then handsomely double missed a skein 25-30yrd high. 👍

[figgy]

Done same it’s the close ones I tend to miss, that used to shooting at longer range geese. 

Fella once said to me, treat the head as a clay and forget the body. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 hours ago, figgy said:

Done same it’s the close ones I tend to miss, that used to shooting at longer range geese. 

Fella once said to me, treat the head as a clay and forget the body. 

No, no, no, you've got it all wrong, you simply aim for the eyes!

[figgy]

Ha ha if I can see the eyes I will definitely miss. 

[gotgcoalman]

******. got some lining paper today and intended to test tomorrow.

beaten to it.

Although I have the paper and can use the readily available fiocchi 32g #6 I use for pigeon for the test.

anyone got the pellet count average for the above cart?

I did it once and it made my brain hurt.

[figgy]

7 hours ago, gotgcoalman said:

******. got some lining paper today and intended to test tomorrow.

beaten to it.

Although I have the paper and can use the readily available fiocchi 32g #6 I use for pigeon for the test.

anyone got the pellet count average for the above cart?

I did it once and it made my brain hurt.

If you look up pellets per ounce for 6shot and add on for the e tra4 grams.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

 

6 hours ago, figgy said:

If you look up pellets per ounce for 6shot and add on for the e tra4 grams.

New keyboard needed! Have a spare X on me Mate.

[wymberley]

15 hours ago, gotgcoalman said:

******. got some lining paper today and intended to test tomorrow.

beaten to it.

Although I have the paper and can use the readily available fiocchi 32g #6 I use for pigeon for the test.

anyone got the pellet count average for the above cart?

I did it once and it made my brain hurt.

Well, it could be270 or on the other hand, 304. But really, anywhere between 270 minus 'x' to 304 plus 'y'. The only way to be anywhere near close is to count a couple from the same box. Before I made a couple of counting trays I used to get any kids that were handy to do it - it kept them quiet and they seemed to enjoy it -  but now of course you'd be done for child neglect/cruelty/whatever if we're talking lead. Unless, of course the box actually says 2.7 or 2.6 mm respectively - then you could take a gamble.