Divided Britain

[henry d]

1 hour ago, islandgun said:

I dont see anyone wanting to cling on to a rosy past, the thread is about the almost 50/50 divisions that we now seem to face, . what happened to give and take, live and let live etc 

Have a closer look...

19 hours ago, Westward said:

So many of our historic freedoms have been stolen in my lifetime that I could bang on all night about it but here's just one little episode from 20 years ago: I was driving along a lane between the village of Charfield and the small town of Wotton-under-Edge. As I took took the turn by the vets I saw an elderly "Countryman" walking along the grass verge. He had baler twine around his middle and in his right hand was a shotgun, open but not cased. Even as recently as 1999 no one batted an eyelid but now someone would ring the police who would send in the ARU. The old guy would lose his ticket for sure, probably for ever and yet another "Gun Crime" would be recorded.

How unutterably sad this once great nation has become.

 

4 hours ago, RockySpears said:

  "The Abolition of Britain"  by Peter Hitchens. ...<Snipped>....Those to the Right of center will prevail and children will once more read Shelley and Keats, Enid Blyton and Arthur Ransome, they will play outdoors and climb trees with no fear, but broken limbs will follow.

 

RS

 

4 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, very good post R S, 

 

3 hours ago, norfolk dumpling said:

Yep agree with all the above particularly the huge damage social media and media more generally has done to the baviour of a very small but vociferous number of people who now have a voice. In times gone by they would not have been heard. Today they are heard and this encourages others to speak out. I worry but I'm determined to make the most of my hobbies for as long as I'm allowed.

Pretty much rosy tinted, and I think you need to watch the TEDx talk I posted (here it is again)

[Dave-G]

4 hours ago, RockySpears said:

  "The Abolition of Britain"  by Peter Hitchens.  This book really summarises all you need to know about today's UK.

It was published 2008 and goes through the rapid changes to the UK after the 2nd World War;  Church going decline, literacy drop, reading of less and less history, working women, the Communist influence on UK education as academics moved more and more to the Left, the pills arrival, drop in morality/responsibility etc etc, things that many here will recognise (because we live in that echo chamber) and know to be true.

  Personally I do not see the current system as sustainable, there are no longer any moral compasses for children, parents, even, have relinquished all childrearing responsibility to the State or a childminder. 

  This is not unique to the UK, but to the whole of what used to be called "Western Civilisation".

  Change is coming, and I do not think it will be pleasant, we simply cannot go on like this.  It is, in my opinion, either Civil disruption or some larger conflict.

  Those to the Right of center will prevail and children will once more read Shelley and Keats, Enid Blyton and Arthur Ransome, they will play outdoors and climb trees with no fear, but broken limbs will follow.

 

RS

I think our whole culture has become too far diluted and fairyfied for that (new word lol.)

[RockySpears]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

Pretty much rosy tinted,

It is only rose tinted if you think it was better back then when really it wasn't.  I think it actually was better, that is not rose tinted, that is my memory.

 

RS

[islandgun]

2 hours ago, RockySpears said:

It is only rose tinted if you think it was better back then when really it wasn't.  I think it actually was better, that is not rose tinted, that is my memory.

 

RS

Agreed your memory is correct, It was better thats a fact. its also highly likely now, is better than its going to be in 50yrs time. simply look at the crime figures, with one or two notable exceptions [hindley] a murder made headlines in the daily mirror when i was a kid. now it barely gets a mention in the local paper.

3 hours ago, henry d said:

Have a closer look...

 

 

 

Pretty much rosy tinted, and I think you need to watch the TEDx talk I posted (here it is again)

Not rose tinted, simple perceptions.. I havnt looked at your link, does it explain why people consider it right to compel others to stop shooting, or eating beef,  [whatever]. the original thread was why there are such opposite views today, when before [5-10-20-60 yrs ago] people excepted a vote, law, or ideal and allowed the majority view,  sure we grumbled but we made the best and got on with our lives.  not the case today.. dont like something ? manipulate a lot of the easily lead and influence the government, and if that doesnt work.. do it again

 

Edited August 16, 2019 by islandgun

[udderlyoffroad]

34 minutes ago, RockySpears said:

It is only rose tinted if you think it was better back then when really it wasn't.  I think it actually was better, that is not rose tinted, that is my memory.

 

RS

 

Exactly what period in recent history are you referring to?  1990s? 80s? 50s?

I think the '90s was better, mostly because I was a teenager, and my biggest worry was whether or not I'd done my homework, and if I could find some money for petrol for my 50cc bike.

Those who didn't enjoy whichever period you're likely referring to are probably not around anymore to complain about it.

That's before you consider that it's human nature to somewhat repress the bad times and only concentrate on the good.  A necessary survival instinct if you will, or a sort of reverse-four-Yorkshiremen syndrome.

Back to the OP's point on being divided; a lot of people do seem to thrive on feeding that particular monster.  Whether it be Brexit v Remain, Country v City, class divisions etc, and the aforementioned 'paradox of the information age'.

Of course on PW we're no better, convinced as we are of the righteousness of our particular cause, namely killing our own dinner whilst as a side benefit protecting crops that even vegans eat.  

I think the only thing one can do, is to ensure you make a conscious effort not to shut out friends and acquaintances from the other side.  Whether they're anti hunting, or voted differently on Brexit or whatever....Recently a friend's wife got drunk and told me what she thought of me for holding certain views.  I said "but we're still mates aren't we?"  "Of course, don't be silly!"  I had been bracing myself for far worse.

 

 

[Rewulf]

Take a look at this picture.
At a glance its riot police ready to kettle or disperse a crowd of troublemakers, or it may be just a security precaution in case a peaceful protest turns ugly.

Peaceful protest ? A right to express an opinion, or support a cause, maybe a person.

But these people arent police, and they are not there to peacefully protest.
They are there to forcibly stop an opposing ideology from protesting, using violence.

They are called antifa, and if you dont agree with them, you are a nazi, and they will beat you with the weapons they are carrying, in full view of the police.
The bitter irony , is that to beat the 'nazis' they have become them, and they dont even care that that is the truth.
They call themselves progressives , and promote equality and unity, but only if you are like them.
The fact we tolerate this in our society, is why division will continue for many years to come.

[henry d]

"Nothing is more responsible for the good old days than a bad memory"

[RockySpears]

15 minutes ago, henry d said:

"Nothing is more responsible for the good old days than a bad memory"

  Give over Henry;  once upon a time my dad and I disagreed whether it was the miners strike, prisons, abortion or even if I should be plinking with my air pistol in our (large) garden.  Now I am a Right wing nut with "guns" and stuff and we try not to talk about anything but the weather.  At work we could speak freely of our thoughts on crime, politics or any subject we wanted to talk about, without fear of loosing our jobs.  Now many people do not speak freely, they self censure.  Speech is monitored and I will often only grunt or smile to acknowledge some comment made at work, in the street or at family dos.  There is no free speech, I am apparently full of "Hate Speech".  What a terrifying concept that is.  In UK law it has such a vague and all encompassing definition that any one making any comment at all, even some yobs hair ( https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/facebook-users-warned-mocking-criminals-hair-could-be-illegal/ar-AAFExZ9 ) is going to get the police warning you about your language.

  The Country we knew is passed, you obviously think "good riddance", but be very careful what you wish for, remember:

  "First they came for the non-PC speakers, and I did nothing ....."

 

RS

[Scully]

Personally I think we’ve all just become intolerant of the wishes and lives of others. I’m a great believer in freedom of choice and none interference in the daily lives of ordinary people. It seemed once on that it was only politicians who did this, now it seems everyone wants to tell others how they should be living their lives, and what they should and shouldn’t do.

Just get on with your own life; don’t interfere in mine and I won’t interfere in yours.

Whatever happened to freedom of choice and live and let live? 

Think I may start a campaign to ban the manufacture, sale and consumption of alcohol, on the grounds it is a mind and personality changing drug, harmful to the environment, a drain on NHS resources, and a health hazard, both to those who drink it and those on the receiving end of those who drink it. I think it may have legs. 🙂

 

[bluesj]

14 minutes ago, Scully said:

Personally I think we’ve all just become intolerant of the wishes and lives of others. I’m a great believer in freedom of choice and none interference in the daily lives of ordinary people. It seemed once on that it was only politicians who did this, now it seems everyone wants to tell others how they should be living their lives, and what they should and shouldn’t do.

Just get on with your own life; don’t interfere in mine and I won’t interfere in yours.

Whatever happened to freedom of choice and live and let live? 

Think I may start a campaign to ban the manufacture, sale and consumption of alcohol, on the grounds it is a mind and personality changing drug, harmful to the environment, a drain on NHS resources, and a health hazard, both to those who drink it and those on the receiving end of those who drink it. I think it may have legs. 🙂

 

I think its legless!

I don't think that we have all become intolerant just some have! The problem is those of use that haven't have always been in the freedom of choice camp and not be concerned with what others do if in doesn't impact on us too much and when those that want to ban this and stop the other we have never really spoken out because why should we because we had level headed people in charge and looking out for use, but things have changed! Now it would seem that there are no level headed people in charge and any one that is will only listen to who shouts loudest and it doesn't matter if it they are shouting fact or fiction as long as it is loud!

Edited August 16, 2019 by bluesj

[Scully]

1 minute ago, bluesj said:

I think its legless!

🙂👍

[henry d]

1 hour ago, RockySpears said:

  Give over Henry;  once upon a time my dad and I disagreed whether it was the miners strike, prisons, abortion or even if I should be plinking with my air pistol in our (large) garden.  Now I am a Right wing nut with "guns" and stuff and we try not to talk about anything but the weather.  At work we could speak freely of our thoughts on crime, politics or any subject we wanted to talk about, without fear of loosing our jobs.  Now many people do not speak freely, they self censure.  Speech is monitored and I will often only grunt or smile to acknowledge some comment made at work, in the street or at family dos.  There is no free speech, I am apparently full of "Hate Speech".  What a terrifying concept that is.  In UK law it has such a vague and all encompassing definition that any one making any comment at all, even some yobs hair ( https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/facebook-users-warned-mocking-criminals-hair-could-be-illegal/ar-AAFExZ9 ) is going to get the police warning you about your language.

  The Country we knew is passed, you obviously think "good riddance", but be very careful what you wish for, remember:

  "First they came for the non-PC speakers, and I did nothing ....."

 

RS

Slippery slope argument is a poor one, do you want to go back to the time we called people with different skin colour names with impunity, were they really good times? 

[bluesj]

20 minutes ago, henry d said:

Slippery slope argument is a poor one, do you want to go back to the time we called people with different skin colour names with impunity, were they really good times? 

People that have different views get called names now not people with a different skin colour. Have you not been called a murderer or pedo because you take in field sports? 

[Rewulf]

46 minutes ago, henry d said:

Slippery slope argument is a poor one, do you want to go back to the time we called people with different skin colour names with impunity, were they really good times? 

Still do don't they? 

Got called a white piece of something or other last month, but I didn't bother calling the police about it, pretty sure wasting police time is still an offence. 🤔

[Scully]

37 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Still do don't they? 

Got called a white piece of something or other last month, but I didn't bother calling the police about it, pretty sure wasting police time is still an offence. 🤔

🙂 The owner of the shop where I buy my paint is in a dispute over parking ( it’s the paint shops land ) with a neighbouring Indian takeaway owner. The Indian often takes up the delivery space, meaning deliveries of paint etc can’t be done without blocking the road, causing hassle from motorists. 

The Indian is playing the race card but it is he who has called the paint shop owner a white *******, and has physically threatened him. 

He in turn has informed police of the ongoing dispute, just so they have it on record that there is an issue in case anything kicks off. He is now in the process of installing ( at his own expense, to partition his own property ) drop down bollards. 

You have to be white to be a racist, or so it seems. 

[Velocette]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

Slippery slope argument is a poor one, do you want to go back to the time we called people with different skin colour names with impunity, were they really good times? 

It took a change in the law to attempt to prevent it,,,and now the boot is on the other foot with comments based on race being a regular occurrence. Little done about that,,,and no comments from you either. Strangely blinkered viewpoint !

[oowee]

There are plenty of examples from history where commentators mourn the times gone past.  Remembering how good the past was and how fearful we are of the future reflects human nature to be comfortable with our knowledge of the past whilst at the same time being uncomfortable with our lack of knowledge of the future. 

Here are a few quotes.

Socrates.

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

Nostalgia is like a grammar lesson: you find the present tense, but the past perfect! ~Owens Lee Pomeroy

If you're yearning for the good old days, just turn off the air conditioning. ~Griff Niblack

 

 

[Houseplant]

There are similar threads on the NZ hunting forum, it's not limited to the UK. Since Christchurch, there has been a lot of public discussion about gun ownership, political correctness, racism, freedom of speech, the right to hunt/fish and all sort of other things that we thought didn't really affect us. I can tell you that the average, usually moderately-minded, working/tax paying hunter/angler is pretty ****** off right now.   

[islandgun]

13 hours ago, henry d said:

"Nothing is more responsible for the good old days than a bad memory"

 

7 hours ago, oowee said:

There are plenty of examples from history where commentators mourn the times gone past.  Remembering how good the past was and how fearful we are of the future reflects human nature to be comfortable with our knowledge of the past whilst at the same time being uncomfortable with our lack of knowledge of the future. 

Here are a few quotes.

Socrates.

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

Nostalgia is like a grammar lesson: you find the present tense, but the past perfect! ~Owens Lee Pomeroy

If you're yearning for the good old days, just turn off the air conditioning. ~Griff Niblack

 

 

What is the point of these platitudes ?  the question is why we have such opposing views now, [all major decisions seem to be 50/50] or at least why do people feel compelled to stop others from doing things,  when historically we would have accepted it.  Is it social media, biased TV,  manipulation,  do people feel underrepresented, lied to by an ineffectual government.. or should we just stop whingeing or blaming others and get on with the few years we have..😶

[henry d]

1 hour ago, islandgun said:

 

What is the point of these platitudes ?  the question is why we have such opposing views now, [all major decisions seem to be 50/50] or at least why do people feel compelled to stop others from doing things,  when historically we would have accepted it.  Is it social media, biased TV,  manipulation,  do people feel underrepresented, lied to by an ineffectual government.. or should we just stop whingeing or blaming others and get on with the few years we have..😶

Ok, you start with the assumption that people's worldview is polarised into 2 POV on questions about life, a broad generalisation to begin with, then you refine it slightly by saying people want to prevent others from carrying on doing as they wish. You then make another assumption that this didn't happen in the past and give your views on the likely culprits.

The platitudes as you call them are more than that, they show you that apparent changes to society are a constant throughout history, what you perceive is just another part of that. You can even go further back than Socrates to Solomon who informed us about 3000 years ago that "There is nothing new under the sun..." Things happen and culture changes and eventually we struggle with that change.

Have a wonderful weekend and relax in the way that you enjoy most with those who mean the most to you.

[islandgun]

29 minutes ago, henry d said:

Ok, you start with the assumption that people's worldview is polarised into 2 POV on questions about life, a broad generalisation to begin with, then you refine it slightly by saying people want to prevent others from carrying on doing as they wish. You then make another assumption that this didn't happen in the past and give your views on the likely culprits.

The platitudes as you call them are more than that, they show you that apparent changes to society are a constant throughout history, what you perceive is just another part of that. You can even go further back than Socrates to Solomon who informed us about 3000 years ago that "There is nothing new under the sun..." Things happen and culture changes and eventually we struggle with that change.

Have a wonderful weekend and relax in the way that you enjoy most with those who mean the most to you.

Discourse is a series of questions . I ask a question or make assumptions if you disagree you pose another argument or assumption  your best is to quote others stating the obvious.  my original question is why in my short lifetime people have changed enough to impose their will against legitimate lifestyles/diets etc just because they dont like it... brexit is the classic,  dont like the result try and change it, ad infinitum. this mindset is much more prevalent now than ever before... or at least has more prominence ?

[henry d]

Because, in the developed world, we have plentiful food now but 60ish years ago we had just finished a period of change and lack of food after the war. Changes also came about through people's mindset after the war too, life was felt to be too fragile and short, so excess was seen as the way forward, add in rock n roll and off we go.

The reason I quote others is that it has been said before, change happens.

As for brexit, if the reverse happened would the brexiteers have said "fair enough" and sat content that democracy wins, so all is right with the world? 

 

 

 

 

Answer is no BTW, as you have seen in Scotland.

[islandgun]

39 minutes ago, henry d said:

Because, in the developed world, we have plentiful food now but 60ish years ago we had just finished a period of change and lack of food after the war. Changes also came about through people's mindset after the war too, life was felt to be too fragile and short, so excess was seen as the way forward, add in rock n roll and off we go.

The reason I quote others is that it has been said before, change happens.

As for brexit, if the reverse happened would the brexiteers have said "fair enough" and sat content that democracy wins, so all is right with the world? 

 

 

 

 

Answer is no BTW, as you have seen in Scotland.

I believe in the democratic vote.. and would accept it,  I cant speak for others, hence my OP

[oowee]

21 minutes ago, islandgun said:

I believe in the democratic vote.. and would accept it,  I cant speak for others, hence my OP

I think most people would agree that Democracy is the way forward but as we have seen there are many ways to interpret the results of it and in any case it is not a static thing. It changes over time and morphs from one state to another. The purpose of Democracy is to fairly represent the people. 

Unfortunately history is littered with examples of where the will of the people has been distorted for the benefit of a few resulting in change that very few wanted. Whilst a simple leave remain stance may imply a polarised difference that cannot be reconciled the reality is surely that we are all looking for principally the same thing and the answer must lie in the middle. 

[Rewulf]

30 minutes ago, oowee said:

I think most people would agree that Democracy is the way forward

The absolute meaning of the word.

 

31 minutes ago, oowee said:

but as we have seen there are many ways to interpret the results of it

Especially when the result is one you disagree with ?

 

32 minutes ago, oowee said:

it is not a static thing. It changes over time and morphs from one state to another.

Elections and referendums every month , week ?

 

33 minutes ago, oowee said:

The purpose of Democracy is to fairly represent the people.

Usually by majority.

 

33 minutes ago, oowee said:

Unfortunately history is littered with examples of where the will of the people has been distorted for the benefit of a few

Oh yes ! Not the many , the few .

 

34 minutes ago, oowee said:

resulting in change that very few wanted.

Is it the same 'few' or a different few ?
What happened to the majority ?

 

36 minutes ago, oowee said:

Whilst a simple leave remain stance may imply a polarised difference that cannot be reconciled the reality is surely that we are all looking for principally the same thing and the answer must lie in the middle. 

Where is the middle ?

Leave but dont really leave, or remain but just ..remain..

There is no middle, the 'few' wouldnt even accept the BRINO.
They didnt want compromise, they wanted what they wanted , and stuff the 'will of the people '