Brexit - merged threads

[Retsdon]

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

That one is a bit arguable; the commissioner (JC Juncker) is elected by MEPs as a sort of electoral college - who are elected by us.  The 28 members of the European Commission are chosen one from each country (by the elected government of that country).

But you can't vote any of them out. Once they get their feet under a desk as an EU voter you have no means whatsoever to sanction or dismiss these people. And that in turn means that there's a gaping democratic deficit at the heart of the EU. Consequently anyone with a belief in democracy as a form of government should have massive problems with the way that the EU is constituted because there's basically zero accountability.  That so few of the 'liberal democrats' see this glaring mote in their eye just demonstrates how shallow their political education actually is.

 

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland–European_Union_relations

They pay in, dance to the tune, and shut up.

I understand that, but what I meant was , they get a tailor made deal, they get single market access, pick and choose which EU  laws they follow, and dont seem to have any issues with customs unions, borders ect.
Yes they have free movement, limited since 2014, but dont seem to have the issues that other EU countries do.

I know one of the main sticking points is that free movement of people clause, but as Ive said before, the EU could have avoided that.
We apparently arent allowed to have our cake and eat it, but the Swiss and to a lesser extent so does Norway.
 

The matter is irrelevant as we have already rejected a Norway deal, but surely, as a stop gap something along those lines could have been implemented, rather than this transitional phase May signed up to.

Interestingly the Swiss are thinking of ending free movement, which will effectively end their participation in the single market and any other EU controls.

[Retsdon]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

The matter is irrelevant as we have already rejected a Norway deal,

That was the mistake that all the mess coming down the pike will be due to. It was the best option under the circumstances.

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Interestingly the Swiss are thinking of ending free movement, 

And not just the Swiss. You only have to look at the ascent of Europe's 'populist' parties (code for parties that actually represent real people's views) to see that the  bleeding heart, wishy-washy sleight-of- hand-disguise of what's basically been an agenda to transfer wealth from the working and small-business owning middle classes to the corporations has been rumbled.

People are sick of it. They want their own countries, they want their interests represented, and they want a proper say in how their societies are structured. The current 'political' EU is living on borrowed time.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

5 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

People are sick of it. They want their own countries, they want their interests represented, and they want a proper say in how their societies are structured. The current 'political' EU is living on borrowed time.

If only more people could see it for what it really is, then the desire to get out would grow massively.

Edited July 20, 2018 by TIGHTCHOKE

[Rewulf]

15 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

If only more people could see it for what it really is, then the desire to get out would grow massively.

I think plenty of people see it , but are too comfortable (at the moment) to rock the boat.
People these days are too damn lethargic to get up off the sofa and stand up and be counted.
By the time they realise theres a serious problem, its too late.

[Retsdon]

5 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

If only more people could see it for what it really is, then the desire to get out would grow massively.

But we'll probably differ on the solution. Personally, I don't think that in a world of large trade blocs -  in which nearly all agreements are done at bloc level - it's sensible to jump out of a  safe boat  - however we might not like the bridge - without any kind of life vest at all.....or even knowing in which direction we're going to swim. We didn't like the direction the EU was going and the Brussels captaincy. Fine - well, I believe that if we'd  preached mutiny then even if we didn't end up taking over the ship we'd have hadenough support from enough EU countries to change the direction of the EU. All these things are basically timing. The Hungarians and Poles have essentially told Brussels to sit on a sharp stick and there are plenty of other countries' peoples with the same mindset. By voting to leave we've left these like- minded people in the lurch without anyone at the 'top' table to talk for them. So they won't be our allies in any negotiation. But they would have been like minded reformers of the Brussels-centric EU  if we'd stayed fighting for what we believed in. So now we have no allies whose interests coincide with ours. That's really, really poor diplomacy.

Not an EU fan, I just think that staying within the EU would  have presented opportunities to shape our future better. Outside, particularly without any kind of deal or any allies, we're going to be at the mercy of every trade bloc in the world with no political influence to change a dam**d thing. It's going to be a very lonely and cold place.

[Good shot?]

"we are going to be releasing a number of technical notifications to set out what UK citizens and businesses need to do in a no deal scenario, so making much more public awareness of the preparations,""

This is a recent statement by Theresa May. Notifications to show preparations for a no deal is what the she descibes it as.

I would suggest it will be scare mongering to prepare us for a massive compromise to lessen (she hopes) an anticipated revolt against a very bad deal that we will not be able to stop happening.

I do not believe she will go down a no deal situation although that is what is needed.

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

 

Not an EU fan, I just think that staying within the EU would  have presented opportunities to shape our future better. Outside, particularly without any kind of deal or any allies, we're going to be at the mercy of every trade bloc in the world with no political influence to change a dam**d thing. It's going to be a very lonely and cold place.

The bloc is failing, on so many levels, we are doing the right thing by jumping out the burning plane.

2 minutes ago, Good shot? said:

 

I do not believe she will go down a no deal situation although that is what is needed.

I dont think theres a choice anymore, we need to pull our socks up and jump.

[Retsdon]

5 minutes ago, Good shot? said:

although that is what is needed.

Just curious. Why?

[Retsdon]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

we are doing the right thing by jumping out the burning plane.

It's not a burning plane, it's a ship that's still sailing along. This idea that the EU is on the verge of breaking up is a dangerous wishful fantasy. The EU might change, it might even undergo severe infighting and convulsions, but for its members the benefits of belonging and the economic power that membership of the union brings will always trump everything else. No, if Theresa has her way...or rather if she lets Rees-Mogg have his way...after March Britain is going to be like the kid who stormed out of the party looking in at the window of the locked door while the cake and sausage rolls go round. Seriously, I don't like the EU, but the future for the UK at the moment is not bright, not bright at all.And it needn't have been like this. The government has managed the whole thing so  badly....

[Good shot?]

The current proposal, which does not meet the Brexit criteria anyway will be diluted further yet by the EU.

Brussels cannot and will not give us a deal to fulfil all that is needed and promised from the referendum without damaging their fundamental principles IMO.

(I say 'principles ' reluctantly) 

Brexit must provide all that is expected of it and no major compromises.No deal is better than staying in the EU without any hope of major reform.

Otherwise "Democracy" is as good as dead.

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Good shot?
spelling error

[Newbie to this]

17 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Britain is going to be like the kid who stormed out of the party looking in at the window of the locked door while the cake and sausage rolls go round

I don't see it that way.

I see it more as a shop, one that Britain has declined to pay for the privilege (in more ways than one) to shop in, so we have been barred from using said shop. So we then can shop at all the other shops, leaving the EU shop plentiful with no one else taking up our shopping quotas.

Meanwhile we are shopping elsewhere on our own terms, which we previously couldn't because the EU shop controlled how we shopped outside it's store.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Newbie to this

[Retsdon]

25 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

I see it more as a shop,

Well, less than 9 months to go and we'll see. I hope you're right.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

It's not a burning plane, it's a ship that's still sailing along. This idea that the EU is on the verge of breaking up is a dangerous wishful fantasy. The EU might change, it might even undergo severe infighting and convulsions, but for its members the benefits of belonging and the economic power that membership of the union brings will always trump everything else. No, if Theresa has her way...or rather if she lets Rees-Mogg have his way...after March Britain is going to be like the kid who stormed out of the party looking in at the window of the locked door while the cake and sausage rolls go round. Seriously, I don't like the EU, but the future for the UK at the moment is not bright, not bright at all.And it needn't have been like this. The government has managed the whole thing so  badly....

It's a ship with a drunken captain, and a general crew of elitist, champagne socialists.

Their course was set 70 years ago by long dead men, whose dreams of federal, totalitarian Europe live on in their progressive ilk.

Dreams that have have simply not moved with the times, the protectionist ideas of trade ,coupled with a free movement of people from inside and outside the EU, is a rocky coastline with absolutely no safe harbours.

The cold hands gripping the wheel, refusing to waver from the course of doom, should give you every answer you need, and every reason to take to the lifeboats.

[hambone]

2 hours ago, Retsdon said:

It's not a burning plane, it's a ship that's still sailing along. This idea that the EU is on the verge of breaking up is a dangerous wishful fantasy. The EU might change, it might even undergo severe infighting and convulsions, but for its members the benefits of belonging and the economic power that membership of the union brings will always trump everything else. No, if Theresa has her way...or rather if she lets Rees-Mogg have his way...after March Britain is going to be like the kid who stormed out of the party looking in at the window of the locked door while the cake and sausage rolls go round. Seriously, I don't like the EU, but the future for the UK at the moment is not bright, not bright at all.And it needn't have been like this. The government has managed the whole thing so  badly....

I might be wrong (not the first time) but have not both Greece and Italy both been financially bullied into remaining?

[walshie]

Once we leave, others will follow. The EU have shown their true colours during so-called negotiations and tried to bully us into capitulating, which seems to have backfired.

To all the doom-mongers, grow a pair for god's sake. 

[Gordon R]

walshie - well said.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Interesting to watch Sir John Major ex PM still stating that "people should come to their senses" whilst calling for a second referendum on the Andrew Marr show on the BBC.

 

Still a condescending **** then, no change expected in the future either.

[Eyefor]

5 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Interesting to watch Sir John Major ex PM still stating that "people should come to their senses" whilst calling for a second referendum on the Andrew Marr show on the BBC.

 

Still a condescending **** then, no change expected in the future either.

...but it's the Biased Broadcasting Company AGAIN giving airtime to has beens who are denying democracy.

I'm disgusted with the BBC. Laura Kronenburg (and others) should be fired. I want the News. Not their (biased) opinion.

Rant over...(for now). 

Edited July 22, 2018 by Eyefor

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I don't think we will ever see an un-biased fairly represented content on the BBC, it appears the preaching goes on at all levels.

[TriBsa]

 

Well don't watch it then. Stop paying them through the Licence Fee and use your TV for a pattern test.

Edited July 22, 2018 by TriBsa

[TIGHTCHOKE]

17 minutes ago, TriBsa said:

 

Well don't watch it then. Stop paying them through the Licence Fee and use your TV for a pattern test.

I think you miss the point. The BBC should return to its origins and be an unbiased open and even reporting base.

[ditchman]

QUESTION...

"how much power/authority....sway...has Claude Yunker got, in what the outcome of the negociations result "..?

[TriBsa]

4 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I think you miss the point. The BBC should return to its origins and be an unbiased open and even reporting base.

But as you say yourself it's not going to happen. It would need the political will to change it and most politicians like it the way it is. It is an integral part of our PC liberal establishment, it is the prpoganda wing. Perhaps it was always thus? Maybe in the past it appeared fair and unbiased because we believed in the political system it espoused but now we are disenfranchised from that system we see it as propoganda. Change will only come to the BBC when we see change in Westminster and the sweeping aside of the current cabal.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Yes I think you are quite correct.