Brexit - merged threads

[pinfireman]

On 02/03/2019 at 16:38, oowee said:

So TM's deal goes through one way or another she resigns having achieved Brexit. Party splits and we get a GE. Corbyn gets in and we go for customs union and can do away with Irish border.

Or May's deal gets postponed and we delay, we then sign deal and above happens. 

 

 

I agree with Raja the dispute is with the Architect's of leave. 

No, the dispute is with ALL those MPs, Tory, Labour and Limp / Dumb, who voted overwhelmingly for a Referendum, and then, when they did NOT get the result they wanted, have spent 30 months trying to overturn it! They are solely to BLAME!

On 02/03/2019 at 17:20, old man said:

Hopefully we shall remove a lot of roosting spots at the ballot box.

Hopefully politics will be changed forever. Difficult pill to swallow when betrayed by our own politicians.

We only have to remove a handful of those prominent ones! On the Tory side, Soubry, Greening, Rudd, Morgan & Hammond. 3 of them have small majorities, so relatively easy to do, the other two need de-selection. Difficult, but NOT impossible!

On 02/03/2019 at 13:26, Rewulf said:

Yes we did, which makes the first part of the sentence irrelevant.

Now you know why many people wanted to leave perhaps ?
An organisation, a club, a bloc, call it what you will, that forces you into staying, despite abusing your good nature, is not a marriage you want to be part of.
Day by day it becomes clearer what kind of people we are dealing with, and more and more are waking up to this.
The problem isnt Europe, its the EU , if it were capable of changing for the better (Its not) we wouldnt be where we are.

We have to get away from it, its increasingly important now, economically and socially.
Whilst Mays deal isnt what I hoped for, its a start down the road, maybe we can make it better, less 'EU'
Time to stop arguing about this, lets get it done.

May,s deal is garbage!  Once done, you will NEVER get the chance again to get out completely!  It means paying to stay in, with no voice! No deal is the only way forward.

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

It means paying to stay in, with no voice! No deal is the only way forward.

I wish it was, its my preferred exit.
But seeing as parliament have taken control of the process, and they dont want that, its turning into a pipe dream.
Unless they have already done some work on the trade deal, going into Mays transition period could be frought with the usual EU intransigence, so the possibility of abandoning talks after March 29 and going WTO remains on the table ?
Maybe this is whats driving our position, lets see how it pans out.

[Raja Clavata]

All eyes should probably be on Geoffrey Cox at the moment, seems like he's the guy that is either going to make or break Brexit. If he concludes that the legal position on the backstop is unsatisfactory then I can't see the ERG and others going with May's deal.

Nobody has mentioned the ITV programme aired last night, pretty sad state of affairs.

[oowee]

6 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

All eyes should probably be on Geoffrey Cox at the moment, seems like he's the guy that is either going to make or break Brexit. If he concludes that the legal position on the backstop is unsatisfactory then I can't see the ERG and others going with May's deal.

Nobody has mentioned the ITV programme aired last night, pretty sad state of affairs.

Missed the program what was it? 

 

[JohnfromUK]

46 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

voting for a one issue party of protest!

Such a party (which as far as I know doesn't actually exist at the moment) is a complete nonsense!  IF they ever achieved power (which is highly unlikely), the fact that they have no other policies, skills, ambitions aims would pretty much guarantee a result in disaster for the country. 

I can fully understand certain MPs who have defied the wishes of their constituents will have caused a lot of bad will - and deserve to be ejected.  To provide credible alternatives in those constituencies is good sense.  However anyone who actually believes having a 'one issue' party in power that has no defined and agreed policies in other areas would give a good and stable government and economy is a fool.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, oowee said:

Missed the program what was it? 

 

Exposure: Brexit online exposed.

[Dave-G]

11 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

All eyes should probably be on Geoffrey Cox at the moment, seems like he's the guy that is either going to make or break Brexit. If he concludes that the legal position on the backstop is unsatisfactory...

He got rumbled in the house last time he tried to fool us the backstop was not a problem. Did you not see his tears of shame when he was exposed while sat near the despatch box?

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

Such a party (which as far as I know doesn't actually exist at the moment) is a complete nonsense!  IF they ever achieved power (which is highly unlikely), the fact that they have no other policies, skills, ambitions aims would pretty much guarantee a result in disaster for the country. 

I can fully understand certain MPs who have defied the wishes of their constituents will have caused a lot of bad will - and deserve to be ejected.  To provide credible alternatives in those constituencies is good sense.  However anyone who actually believes having a 'one issue' party in power that has no defined and agreed policies in other areas would give a good and stable government and economy is a fool.

Wasn't that the issue with UKIP before it was over-run by right wing extremist nut-jobs?

[Dave-G]

12 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Such a party (which as far as I know doesn't actually exist at the moment) is a complete nonsense!  IF they ever achieved power (which is highly unlikely), the fact that they have no other policies, skills, ambitions aims would pretty much guarantee a result in disaster for the country. 

I can fully understand certain MPs who have defied the wishes of their constituents will have caused a lot of bad will - and deserve to be ejected.  To provide credible alternatives in those constituencies is good sense.  However anyone who actually believes having a 'one issue' party in power that has no defined and agreed policies in other areas would give a good and stable government and economy is a fool.

But it's better to vote for parties that have wilfully and treacherously defacated all over the greatest turnout of voters ever? Neither Con nor Labour can ever be trusted again.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Dave-G

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

Wasn't that the issue with UKIP before it was over-run by right wing extremist nut-jobs?

It was an issue for UKIP, but it is not wholly fair to say that under Farage they had no 'other policies'.  Leaving the EU was the prime policy certainly, but their manifesto did cover other areas.  The press/broadcasters didn't give them much coverage.  In my view their biggest problem was lack of competent people (and by that I don't mean Farage), but it was a 'one person team' under Farage.  Better I suppose than the present 'no person team'.

1 minute ago, Dave-G said:

But it's better to vote for parties that have wilfully and treacherously defacated all over us?

It is best to vote for a party that, if elected, can credibly form a government that can run the country.

[Dave-G]

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

It was an issue for UKIP, but it is not wholly fair to say that under Farage they had no 'other policies'.  Leaving the EU was the prime policy certainly, but their manifesto did cover other areas.  The press/broadcasters didn't give them much coverage.  In my view their biggest problem was lack of competent people (and by that I don't mean Farage), but it was a 'one person team' under Farage.  Better I suppose than the present 'no person team'.

It is best to vote for a party that, if elected, can credibly form a government that can run the country.

Run the country in a way that was not voted for? They are scum that ought not to be voted back in again ever - and hopefully all those firms who pay them for lobbying to the government will have little further use for them

 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

It was an issue for UKIP, but it is not wholly fair to say that under Farage they had no 'other policies'.  Leaving the EU was the prime policy certainly, but their manifesto did cover other areas.  The press/broadcasters didn't give them much coverage.  In my view their biggest problem was lack of competent people (and by that I don't mean Farage), but it was a 'one person team' under Farage.  Better I suppose than the present 'no person team'.

Agreed.

7 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

He got rumbled in the house last time he tried to fool us the backstop was not a problem. Did you not see his tears of shame when he was exposed while sat near the despatch box?

I didn't see the actual coverage but yes read the reports, prime of example of the political B team

[pinfireman]

On 02/03/2019 at 20:38, tandytommo said:

Doubt the “condom shortage” will effect too many pro brexit voters as most of them probably can’t get it up these days !

 

On 04/03/2019 at 10:38, Rewulf said:

Are you really interested ?
Or are you like most remainers, just looking for some 'sport' a way to have a wry chuckle to yourselves as the democracy and freedoms you profess to hold dear get thrown out the window and urinated on ?

Why so smug ? Is the whole EU project that important to you ?
Is globalism your dream socialist nirvana ?
What about the people that dont want that, are their dreams just plain wrong ? Uneducated ?
The opposite side of the progressive left wing ideals are considered somehow morally inept, yet the freedom of expression and individuality that is championed by them, doesnt seem to extend to the political right for some reason.

We had a vote, leave won, the result was going to be respected, the house voted that it would, the manifestos spouted it would , the leaders of both main parties said it would.
Leave means leave, No deal is better than a bad deal, once in a lifetime.
If you think its funny, and you want to continue living in this quagmire, the jokes on you.

But if you really want to know my opinion, although most people have already stated theirs, as have I.
Ill simplify it for you.
There will be a result of the process that will keep the majority happy.
Or there will be a result that will keep the minority happy.

Which one do you prefer?

Good post

On 02/03/2019 at 20:38, tandytommo said:

Doubt the “condom shortage” will effect too many pro brexit voters as most of them probably can’t get it up these days !

But the Remoaners don.t need them, as they prefer  the five finger sandwich!

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Run the country in a way that was not voted for?

The way Parliament operates - a government has to have a vote of MPs to pass legislation.  When a government has a small majority, or a minority, they are at the mercy of a few 'peripherals' - and these people have disproportionate power - and so prevent the government carrying out policy.  May lost her (small but working) majority when she stupidly went for an election.  Since then, the likes of Soubery and Grieve have had a dangerous 'disruption ability'.  A 'one issue' party would be 'all over the place' on all other issues and have no actual governing ability.

[pinfireman]

On 03/03/2019 at 18:36, Raja Clavata said:

Post of the week this, lol. But there is something very relevant about the age demographic on Brexit.

Post of the week? You are kidding?  The poster was obviously a devotee of the five finger sandwich!

On 03/03/2019 at 18:38, JRDS said:

Typical blinkered Patronising Remoaner.

True!

On 03/03/2019 at 18:47, Raja Clavata said:

Is that really the best you can do...

It,s a mile better than your patronising claptrap! 

On 03/03/2019 at 18:53, JRDS said:

I see you are from Essex, that would explain a lot.  Take Londonistan out of the numbers and you will see where the rest of the country living in the real world voted. 

Correct!

[pinfireman]

On 03/03/2019 at 18:55, Raja Clavata said:

But it's not an assumption, let alone an absurd one:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/567922/distribution-of-eu-referendum-votes-by-age-and-gender-uk/

I thought you had a strong aversion to the use of anecdotal evidence being used to infer things...

A bit better, but let's face it you were starting from a low baseline, feel free to keep going...

"Raja Clavata"  a thornback ray ....conservation status "Near Threatened"....population decreasing.  (Good to know!)  I always thought there was something fishy with your posts...

On 03/03/2019 at 19:26, Gordon R said:

Raja - sadly I have come to the conclusion that your only motive is stirring it. A cheapo poll showing voting distribution is about as accurate as those predicting a Tory landslide at the last election.

 

We all know how accurate polls are..............!not

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, pinfireman said:

"Raja Clavata"  a thornback ray ....conservation status "Near Threatened"....population decreasing.  (Good to know!)  I always thought there was something fishy with your posts...

Getting a bit creepy now lol

[TIGHTCHOKE]

[pinfireman]

On 04/03/2019 at 09:19, Gordon R said:

*** Troglodytarum semper dicere troglodytam

 

Gordon....Illegitimi non carborundum i   Keep sticking it to him!

On 04/03/2019 at 12:28, Retsdon said:

Well, the problem all along has been that although you might not be stuck in the EU, you're stuck with the EU. The UK is about to find out what any Central or South American country, or any Eastern European country, or any S.E. Asian country could tell it about the USA, Russia, or China. When you have a nearest neighbour whose economic GDP is 13+ thousand billion euros  and your own is 2+ thousand billion, you're not going to be calling any tunes. In fact, to survive economically you're going to be swallowing whatever rules and regulations your neighbour applies - even when you're not legally bound to do so - because otherwise you can't do business with them and if you don't do business with them you're down the tubes. So 'deal or 'no deal',  for a very long time in the future the UK is going to have to be in negotiation with the EU and pretending that this reality is not the case won't make it any less real no matter how much we might wish otherwise.

And there's another thing. Britons whose memories of life outside the EU date from 40+ years ago are about discover that the world in 2020 is as different to the world in 1970 as was the world in 1970 to the world in 1930. In fact, it's probably even more different in that the whole globe is now divvied up into massive regional trading blocs. Britain used to have it's own private trade bloc called the Empire /Commonwealth, but that refuge no longer exists in any shape or form. We're going to be like the bloke that gets divorced from his second wife (having dumped the first to go off with her) who now goes back to the first wife wanting to move in again. Only when he pitches up at her door he's shocked to find that her life has moved on; she's remarried with a new family; and although she doesn't bear a grudge  all he's going to get from her is a polite cup of tea and a 'well it was nice to see you again, but I have to go to work now...and by the way could you make sure the gate is closed on the way out?'

Finally. Pretty much every single trade agreement that Britain has with a 3rd party country has been negotiated over the last 40 years using the muscle of the EU, and the terms and benefits apply to Britain solely because of her EU membership. Of course, it;s possible to roll some of those terms over, for example like the Continuation Agreement on conformity assessment that the UK recently signed with the USA, but we would need to be very naive indeed not to realize that going forward our isolation will be taken advantage of. Unfortunately it's the real world.

There are no sunlit uplands over the horizon.

 

But you are working on the assumption that we will not get trade agreements with the English speaking parts of the Commonwealth?  A dangerous assumption.  And the emerging economic giants like Brazil, and India, will be more than happy to do a trade deal.

[pinfireman]

On 04/03/2019 at 12:43, 12gauge82 said:

The thing is, even if your assessment is correct, (which I personally don't believe it is), brexit is now not about that, the very basis of our country and the civilized world is based on democracy, the people were asked and the answer has been given, it was by far the largest democratic vote this country has ever taken and it must now be enacted, if it isn't, the ensuing damage to the very core and fibre that our society is built on will be irreparably damaged forever, it is far more important than a trade deal!

That is very true! 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, pinfireman said:

Gordon....Illegitimi non carborundum i   Keep sticking it to him!

My parents marriage certificate and my birth certificate don't support your assertion.

[pinfireman]

On 04/03/2019 at 13:01, TriBsa said:

Er no. We're going to be living next door, seperated by a waterway. Glancing across, we're going to see that her standard of living has declined without our contributions to the household budget. Some kids are getting increasingly unruly and threatening to move out. The place is falling apart. Desperate for company she is now eyeing up Abdul from Turkey to provide the unmentionables, her pulling power not being what it once was.

The EU is slowly failing! Germany on brink of recession, as is France, Italy already there. The rest of the gang cannot prop it up by themselves! Our economy slowly growing, theirs sinking!  Let them sink!

[das]

30 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

Good post

But the Remoaners don.t need them, as they prefer  the five finger sandwich!

 

[pinfireman]

On 04/03/2019 at 17:14, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Like this?

Workers’ rights:

The UK does not depend on the EU for workers rights. Trade Unions became legal in the UK in 1871; Modern Pensions began in 1908; Holiday Pay was introduced in 1938; Equal pay was introduced in 1970; Race Discrimination Act was introduced in 1965; Sex Discrimination act was introduced in 1975. Maternity Rights in the UK are longer and better paid than in EU Law; and while EU Law provides 4 weeks holidays, the UK provides between 5 and 6 weeks. While it is true that some work benefits were introduced after the UK joined the EU’s Social Chapter in 1997 and UK law now emanates from the EU, it is equally true that many people today are working in the UK on low wages and on zero hours contracts. These contracts favour the employers over the employees and the number of workers on zero-hours contracts has increased by more than 100,000 over the past 12 months to well over 800,000 for the first time, official figures show. Employers are using cheap casual labour to cut costs and avoid commitments to their workforce. Roughly 50 per cent of large businesses (those with 250 + employees) have indicated that they use zero-hours contracts, compared with only 10 per cent of small businesses (fewer than 20 employees). There is no doubt that big businesses in the UK today, and indeed across the EU, have been benefiting from the insecurity and misery caused by ‘Zero hours contracts’ which are contracts of employment which do not specify any number of hours that the employee will be required to work and do not guarantee any work at all.

There undoubtedly has been a welter of EU legislation covering consumer protection, product safety, enhanced policing, food labeling, bans on growth hormones, trade ties, environmental legislation, price, transparency, work placements, some of it more helpful than others.

Free Movement of People:

With regard to the free movement of people and uncontrolled EU immigration, many UK residents are concerned that recent levels of EU immigration has been detrimental for the NHS, schools, housing and national security. If the UK does vote to leave the EU, then the government could immediately seek to introduce work permits for EU immigrants, and only accept workers with skills which are required in the UK. Net immigration to the UK rose to 333,000 in 2015, according to Office for National Statistics estimates - the second highest figure on record. The system currently used by the government was designed to count tourists and it has emerged that there is a difference of more than 1.2 million between the official figures for the number of EU nationals moving to Britain in the past five years, estimated by the Office for National Statistics (ONS), and the actual number of National Insurance numbers which have been issued to those from the EU during the same period. Recently a study by the Bank of England found that increasing immigration has indeed driven down wages; most especially in low wage sectors such as catering, hotels and social care. In May 2015 the Bank of England Governor Mark Carney warned that the current inflow of foreign workers was holding down wages. There is widespread anecdotal evidence that mass immigration is harming those who are on low pay and wage growth is being held back.

Healthcare:

Professor Angus Dalgleish, the principal of the Cancer Vaccine Institute, has stated that the NHS is being bled dry of resources by health tourists denied care at home. Cancer treatment can cost £200,000 and, under Brussels rules, Britain has to offer it to all EU nationals Professor Dalgleish says this partly explains the NHS's £3 billion deficit. He also states that the Government has hindered progress of research into key disease areas 'by blindly adhering to EU directives'.

Professor Dalgleish, a melanoma expert of global renown has stated that

‘Our membership of the EU is putting an intolerable strain on our NHS. The NHS is on its knees and could collapse completely. NHS Trusts were not prepared for the millions of EU migrants who have poured into Britain because the Government estimate was nowhere near the reality. GP services are collapsing under the huge number of people they are having to treat and this has led to less than 20 per cent of students wanting to become GPs. Britain is attracting thousands of health tourists from across the EU who cannot get certain drugs or treatments in their home country so come to Britain and demand them as EU citizens. Cancer treatment can cost £200,000 a year per patient and while we remain in the EU, Britain has to offer treatment for any EU citizen who comes here so as to not discriminate.’

Pensions:

Edi Truell, former chairman of the London Pension Fund Authority and founder of the Pension Insurance Corporation, has said that he is backing a Brexit to protect British pensions. His stark warning over the terrible cost of staying in the EU comes amid further revelations that Brussels wants to take control of the British tax system with a European tax code imposed across the 28 member states. Mr Truell, now chief executive of Disruptive Capital Finance but who was in charge of one of Britain’s biggest public sector pension pots covering 130,000 people and with £18 billion worth of assets, said that Brussels will demand “15 times the entire British defence budget” from the UK when it takes control. Mr Truell said: “I am extremely concerned about the impact the European Commission is going to have on Britain pension funds…… the European Commission is going to force us to spend 15 times our entire annual defence budget to satisfy the EU’s pension desires.”

The current budget for defending Britain is £35 billion.

Peace in Europe:

The EU was founded on deceit and lies. Jean Monnet one of the founding fathers of the EU stated that,

”Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”

The EU's founding fathers, distrusted democracy, which they believed had brought dictators and demagogues to power, and they were determined that their European Project would create a post-democratic new world order, imposed by stealth step by step on their blissfully ignorant populations. Instead of which the EU Commission has itself become the dictatorial power that is crippling the EU. It is not the EU which has kept the peace these last 60+ years – it is Nato which has kept and still keeps the peace, despite the EU Commission President, Jean Claude Junker’s burning desire for an EU Army. When the UK, acceded to the EEC , its post democratic authoritarian foundations, which we have all belatedly come to recognise, were already in place, and even from the outset there was no possibility of changing or influencing this undemocratic anti- democratic institution into anything remotely resembling Parliamentary democracy.

Forty years after our accession to the EEC we can now clearly see what has resulted from the profoundly undemocratic European Project. Right across Europe, the European project is disintegrating with remarkable speed. There is mass unemployment and social disorder, as a result of the utterly disastrous Euro experiment. Instead of Cameron’s fantasy of peace and order, brought about by the EU, we are now seeing the rise of extremist parties right across the EU in Greece, Sweden, France, Austria, and even in Germany, a right wing party called Alternative für Deutschland, AfD has gained strong support in reaction to Angela Merkel’s deliberate swamping of Germany with mass immigration.

Any alleged benefits of a European Union, ruled by the unaccountable unelected irremovable EU Commission, have faded, and across EU there are riots, marches, anarchy and social unrest.

Environmental Legislation:

It has long been suspected that the so called Global Warming Industry has been more about generating profit than it ever was about generating so-called ‘green energy’. Now in the UK we have in excess of 3500 wind turbines, ugly blots on the landscape, and which fail to produce very much power. These wind turbines are notoriously inefficient and often have to be switched off when the wind is too high. They create low level noise nuisance which can drive near neighbours to distraction and the environmental noise pollution adversely impacts on people's health. They emit pulsating noise, intermittently, tonal qualities, amplitude modulation and low frequency noise which has produced unwanted impacts on health, according to the World Health Organizations' guidelines. Not to mention many birds are killed by wind farms.

Recycling:

A research paper from the Department of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has revealed that most managers at plants that recycle rubbish for industrial use say that at best ‘some’ – and in other cases ‘hardly any’ – of the waste sent to them is usable.

Single market:

Membership of the single market has imposed far too many regulations on Britain, in exchange for too few opportunities within European markets, and Britain’s trade with countries outside Europe would be much higher if it left. Wolfgang Münchau of the Financial Times has argued that the single market has delivered little discernible macroeconomic benefit, and that the eurozone will overtake the single market as the organising force within the EU, and that therefore there is no good reason to remain in the EU.

Travel:

There will still be freedom to live, work and travel within EU, even if different conditions apply. We in the UK are able to travel freely around the world with no great hardship and even if visas are required this will be a price worth paying for a return of our freedoms as a sovereign nation.

Study and Travel:

Traditionally some students have always gone overseas to study and travel worldwide and such programmes will continue after Brexit. The International Association for the Exchange of Students for Technical Experience (IAESTE) is an independent, non-profit and non-political student exchange organisation. Since its inception, IAESTE has exchanged more than 350,000 students worldwide, playing a key role in the development of young engineers and scientists. WISE is also a non-profit organization providing international exchange opportunities to students, youth and adults. Student Exchange Australia New Zealand Ltd has long established relationships with international partners. There are myriad opportunities for students to travel and work internationally. At present higher education is in huge demand and so even if fewer EU students come here to study, then this presents greater opportunities for home students to study, and universities would not suffer financially. Universities may also be able to avoid EU regulations on clinical trials, which some argue has had a very damaging effect on research and innovation.

International security:

Rob Wainwright, chief of the EU's police agency Europol, said the agency believed between 3,000 and 5,000 jihadists have been able to slip back into Europe after training with ISIS in the Middle East. Sir Richard Dearlove, former Head of MI6 said that leaving the EU would improve Britain’s security and said that Britain’s borders could be strengthened in the event of a Brexit and extremists could be more easily deported, moves which he said were “security gains” with little apparent downside.

According to a February 2016 report, “Brexit is not the doomsday scenario that some EU officials and Europhile commentators and analysts make it out to be. The EU’s deplorable condition is largely of its own making, most notably because of its many botched policies (ranging from the bungled euro project and its failure to secure the EU’s external borders, to its unresponsiveness to the rising tide of nationalist sentiments). Brexit should be considered the consequence of the EU’s many failed policies, rather than the cause of the EU’s problems. It is therefore important for responsible EU officials and European leaders not to paint the devil on the wall by suggesting that Brexit will only benefit Russia or bring the EU (and Europe in general) closer to war. Not only are these apocalyptic visions imaginary, but they are also irresponsible and counterproductive. If managed well, Brexit will not in any way undermine the EU’s security. …The best choice for both the EU and the UK, is offering opportunities to deepen security and defence integration within a solid EU context for committed member states, while keeping open the option of ad hoc cooperation with like-minded external partners such as the UK and the USA .” (clingendael.nl)

Democracy in the EU:

Democracy died long ago when traitors like Harold MacMillan and Edward Heath deliberately conned the UK public into joining the EEC Common Market. They knew then, and persuaded the Cabinet of the 1960s to keep secret from the UK public the fact that sovereignty would pass to Brussels. It was intended that we would never find out until it was too late. The EU only benefits political elites, (especially in Brussels), the Bilderberg group, the IMF, big businesses and big banks - all of whom are not only involved in stealthily building the EU Superstate, but also involved in building the New World Order. As stated before, the EU's founding fathers, distrusted democracy, which they believed had brought dictators and demagogues to power, and they were determined that their European Project would create a post-democratic new world order, imposed by stealth step by step on their blissfully ignorant populations.

Westminster used to be a Parliament where we were governed for the people by the people. However, ever after we in the UK were misled into the EEC, which became the EC and then the EU; the process of 'hollowing out ' our Westminster Parliament began. Westminster now is mainly an administrative centre for the EU. Around 60% of our laws in the UK now have their origins in the EU Commission. The unelected unaccountable irremovable EU Commission proposes and initiates all EU Laws, Directives and Regulations. Westminster nowadays mostly brings EU Laws, Regulations and Directives into force in the UK. 'Hollowing out ' is being done in all other National Parliaments across the EU, as well; and power is passing continuously to Brussels. The 'powers that be' never intended the UK populace to find out what successive traitorous governments had done. But we have found out....and now we MUST get out of EU ASAP.

Wolfgang Kowalsky states that “as long as the proponents of European integration do not come up with a clear vision or at least some ideas on how to achieve democratic progress, the legitimacy of EU institutions and processes will further decline and the usual remedy of more and better communication will not help in avoiding the abyss”.

Trade deals post Brexit:

There is a free-trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in our out of the euro or EU. The largest sources of imports into the EU are Russia, China and the USA. They are not members of the Single Market – they do not even have preferential trade deals. Yet they sell huge quantities of goods into the Single Market. Dozens of countries around the world trade successfully with Europe – and so will Britain after Brexit.

Roger Bootle, a former Group Chief Economist for HSBC bank, said that recent figures from the Treasury suggesting a new recession if Britain votes to leave the European Union (EU) should be treated with a healthy dose of scepticism. He also rubbished the idea that Britain could not survive outside the EU, adding that if Britain could not arrange a trade deal with Brussels, UK manufacturers would have to pay a four per cent tariff to export to the single market, a figure which is “not a game changer”. He stated that “Already the pound has fallen by more than that this year.”

Last month, a senior German economist also said that Brexit would not be an economic disaster, and could in fact lead to a “booming Britain”.

Martin Hüfner, a former Chief Economist at Germany’s second largest bank HVB, said “markets would adapt to new circumstances, and the City of London would still be Europe’s premier financial centre due to the good people who work there, the English language and the geographical proximity to New York.”

Professor Congdon in his publication ‘How much does membership of the European Union cost Britain?’ points out that the direct costs are bad enough, and forever rising, and that HM Treasury seems completely at sea in their inability to understand or forecast the actual amount of money we are committed to spending on membership. Indeed the whole subject is approached incompetently and dishonestly by the Government. Professor Congdon also points out that the Treasury underestimated our net contribution to the 2012/13 budget by 40%; and in February 2013 Prime Minister David Cameron crowed about another great ‘diplomatic triumph’ (in a long line of such ‘triumphs’) when he announced that for the first time a reduction had been negotiated in the EU budget. It later emerged that in fact EU finance ministers had agreed an increase of £6.2 billion in one year. If this is not bad enough, the indirect costs on the economy are much worse. These include the Common Agricultural Policy and over-regulation, to name just two.

Professor Congdon calculates the total direct and indirect costs on the economy at an incredible and scandalous 11½% of GDP, or a staggering £185 billion per annum

Border Control post Brexit:

As an island nation, we can control our borders. But if we stay in, we can expect Germany to give EU passports to a million migrants, who are then free to come to the UK. In fact at present 508 million people have an absolute right to come and live, work, be housed, claim benefits, use the NHS and our educational system. The EU is keen to admit Turkey, which would be the biggest and poorest EU state, allowing 75 million Turks the right to come to the UK. We must control our borders and have the right to decide who we want here in our own country. It is alleged that after Brexit we will have no voice in the European Commission, the European Council, or the European Parliament where laws are made. The fact of the matter is that we have very little influence whatsoever in any of those Institutions, as evidenced by David Cameron’s pitiful so called renegotiation. He achieved almost nothing.

The unelected unaccountable irremovable EU Commission propose and initiate all EU Laws, Directives and Legislation. You may say we have an EU Commissioner – but a fact not widely understood is that our EU Commissioner is not there to represent the UK to the EU but rather to represent the EU to the UK ; an entirely different thing.

The European Parliament cannot propose legislation and in fact is no more than a facade of democracy. Their only ability is to make minor amendments to the diktats of the EU Commission. The UK has opposed 72 measures in the EU Council which have gone on to become law. Since David Cameron became Prime Minister in 2010, the UK has voted against 40 measures and lost all of them. This is 56% of all 72 measures that the UK has voted against since 1996. It is more losses than all the other Prime Ministers combined. Suffice to say that UK has negligible influence in the EU, and there will be even less as the EU continues to expand, and all the while being the second largest net contributor in the EU.

It is further alleged that we would lose agricultural and structural funding that has benefited areas of industrial decline throughout the UK regions. There is no such thing as European Money – not one penny belongs to the EU. We only receive less than 50% of our contributions back here in the UK. All EU Funding monies that are returned to the UK as grants, subsidies or structural funding have been paid for by UK Taxpayers – it is borrowed money at that, and adds to our grotesque National Debt now standing at in excess of 1.6 trillion pounds.

The EU was founded on deceit, lies and treachery, and David Cameron continues the EU tradition of lies………………… Jean Monnet – one of the founding fathers of the EU stated;

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose but which will irreversibly lead to federation.”

Present President of the EU commission Jean Claude Juncker, stated that; "When it becomes serious, you have to lie."

Mr Juncker has never hidden his view that the compromises and deals being worked out in EU meetings of leaders or ministers need to be protected from public scrutiny, by lies if necessary. He also has stated that “There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties.”

It is alleged that we can we assist the union’s democratic renewal from within. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The EU is incapable of reform.

It is a juggernaut to destruction, of both itself and everything in its path. They have utterly lost touch with reality, not that they ever had much sense of reality. Have you ever seen the glass palaces the EU Commission and EU Parliament exist in? Do you know how much they spend on propaganda promoting EU? They spend more on propaganda than on fighting terrorism. The Belgian terrorists lived just a few kilometers from EU Institutions. Also do you realise that all 751 MEPs and their office staff & furniture, oscillate 12 times a year from Brussels to Strasbourg in France? Unimaginable costs, over & over & over again. 1st class travel, 1st class accommodation etc etc , month in month out, year in year out, decade in decade out. Did you know?

The Brussels HQ of the unelected Commission is absolutely massive! There is an enormous staff of so called civil servants, all on huge salaries, more or less tax free. They throw money at anything that they think will further their outward expansionist agenda & their inward further integrationist ambitions. The EU is a crazy insane money pit of corrupt dictatorship based upon the whims of the unelected, unaccountable, irremovable EU Commission. It is totally undemocratic, in every way. Monument to man's capacity of self deception, and worse, deception of the masses.

The 'powers that be' never intended the UK populace to find out what successive traitorous governments had done. But we have found out....and now we MUST get out of EU ASAP. There is no doubt that it is in our interests to get out of the corrupt, deceitful, profligate, undemocratic, anti democratic, political monstrosity which is the EU. We MUST lead the way out of the EU, to a new dawn and a new day of restored sovereignty and democracy. Please encourage everyone you know to actually go out and Vote Leave on June 23rd. We will NEVER get another chance.

Brilliant! What a great read! No doubt our 3 resident Remoaners will try to rubbish this,  but, like their beloved EU, they will fail.

10 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

It does read well and to it's credit most of the figures cross checked so on the face of it credible.

However it is clearly authored by an anti-EU proponent and if you peel back the layers a bit it reveals the usual biases that each side project; for example the Congdon report cited here has the foreword written by somebody who later went on to become leader of UKIP and who himself was the author of a previous version of the very same report. Further Congdon cites clippings from the Daily Mail as a significant source of his data for the report...

I am choosing my language carefully here and certainly not rubbishing it but let's accept it for what it really is...

Bet you would not have tried to pull this apart if the person you cited came from the Guardian, or the Indy?

10 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Not quite, and I can see what you are trying to do here, but seriously...

Some of the figures are credible but a lot of the stated "facts" are disputable and it throws in language which is inappropriate which reveals it for what it is.

If you want to believe it that's fine, if it reinforces your beliefs then it's done it's job but it's not impartial and it isn't going to make people with opposing views change their mind.

But again, this is all water under the bridge and none of this is relevant to what is going to happen in the next few weeks.

and your posts are impartial?  

[Zapp]

Keep it civil please.  The constant, low level name calling on this thread by one or two is getting pretty tedious now.