Brexit - merged threads

[ditchman]

26 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

That’s awful- let’s ban the sale of Rice 🙂

typical knee jerk reaction.......................what would be more sensible would be to put rice under liecence....sort of like making an application for a firearms liecence.........

then the applicant would fill in a 50 page form..with references from valued members of the BNP....then be interviewed...and finally attatch a cheque for £2500 quid........wait 3 years for the grant..........

far more sensible way....than just to ban something

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

I funded a program in Wolverhampton to recruit nurses from the Philippine's. back in the 90's. I remember they would come over eat nothing but rice and send home all of their money for the first two years. After that if they stayed they would put on loads of weight and get married.  Gross generalisation I am sure. 

Surely the order is marriage then weight gain 🙂

[JRDS]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

I funded a program in Wolverhampton to recruit nurses from the Philippine's. back in the 90's. I remember they would come over eat nothing but rice and send home all of their money for the first two years. After that if they stayed they would put on loads of weight and get married.  Gross generalisation I am sure.  

You personally or the ripped off UK Taxpayer?

Edited April 10, 2019 by JRDS

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, JRDS said:

You personally or the ripped of UK Taxpayer?

We can argue all day long about what we get from the EU and the rest of the world, employment wise, and how much it 'benefits' us.

We can argue about how damaging its going to be to leave, or indeed , the far greater damage is going to be done if we now stay.

We can discuss about how this process has damaged trust in government, in democracy itself.

But there are certain inescapable facts, and I saw this meme this morning, and it pretty much summed it up for me.
It doesnt matter whether you are white English, or born elsewhere and not, if your home is the UK these are the facts.

The only people this doesnt apply to, are usually the ones that scream loudest for more EU , more globalisation, more socialism, the so called progressives.
They can afford to be progressive, because the above doesnt apply to them.
They would scoff at such an assertation, 'You havent planned properly'  'You didnt get a proper education'

It will fix nothing, and the divide grows larger and more extreme, and these disenfranchised people will get more extreme.
You cant use the social fund to buy your way out of this, because you are simply creating a larger and more difficult to reverse problem.

Brexit is about large scale change, something we desperately need.
The EU is about stagnation, continuing down the road to a poverty stricken underclass and a police state to control them.

[Rewulf]

[Raja Clavata]

41 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The only people this doesnt apply to, are usually the ones that scream loudest for more EU , more globalisation, more socialism, the so called progressives.
They can afford to be progressive, because the above doesnt apply to them.
They would scoff at such an assertation, 'You havent planned properly'  'You didnt get a proper education'

It will fix nothing, and the divide grows larger and more extreme, and these disenfranchised people will get more extreme.
You cant use the social fund to buy your way out of this, because you are simply creating a larger and more difficult to reverse problem.

Brexit is about large scale change, something we desperately need.
The EU is about stagnation, continuing down the road to a poverty stricken underclass and a police state to control them.

I was with you until you got to this bit. Then you went tribal with this "us and them"; a tribalistic view that is not only the wrong narrative but plays right into the hands of identity politics. Pandering to identity politics has served a number of individuals very well, very well indeed as societal differences are exploited for political gain. 

Race, gender, cultural, religious and generational differences are all fair game to these people. So long as people find comfort in externalising their problems you can be sure there’s a "politician" willing to exploit these biases and find them an identifiable target group of some sort. it's not just politicians by the way, we are probably all more or less guilty of it to some degree (I know I am).

Let's explore the numbers around the pictures above:

• 650 MPs claiming 4800 per year on dining expenses = £3.12M per year
• 650 MPs salaries at 77, 379 per year = £50.296M per year
• Giving 2.2M children living in food poverty free school meals = £792M per year

So what are the pictures really telling us!?

Nobody, or at least few, are contesting that large scale change is not needed but why do the changes need to start with exiting the EU, it starts to look like a classic case of extreme externalising our problems based on the above.

Nobody would argue that leaving the EU is not a big change but what we are failing to see is exactly how doing so does very much to address the issues we are facing, in fact it risks making some of them worse.

Anyone that has been involved in driving organisational change would tell you that you do it in a series of small steps - if we're going to drive reforms in the UK political landscape then I'm not sure how anyone is credibly suggesting we do that at the same time as we walk away from the EU. Where is the sense and logic in that?

As I've said before the one thing the past three years should have taught us is that we have far bigger issues closer to home that need addressing and with more urgency than leaving the EU.

[JohnfromUK]

54 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Let's explore the numbers around the pictures above:

• 650 MPs claiming 4800 per year on dining expenses = £3.12M per year
• 650 MPs salaries at 77, 379 per year = £50.296M per year
• Giving 2.2M children living in food poverty free school meals = £792M per year

Add to this the average MP's expenses per year (circa £100,000 EACH).  Total figure was £115M per year.  Then there is their pension costs (not looked those up, by they will be considerable).

I can understand those who have remote constituencies will have higher travel expenses, however it is a puzzle to me why two Birmingham MP's claim well over £200K each, whereas another (also in Birmingham from the same Labour party) claims £0.  Details here https://www.mpsexpenses.info/#!/all

 

Edited April 10, 2019 by JohnfromUK

[oowee]

Rewulf we measure wealth in this country by the size of the gap between rich and poor. Gdp growth is the be all and end all. You want more wealth its going to be at the expense of another. Unless you vote Corbyn then it will be at everyones expense.

We need a new more representative parliament working for long term UK plc. Carry on as we are and UK plc will slowly decline eaten away by the competition, from the emerging economies. Brexit is a symptom of that distress. We need wholesale change. 

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

We can argue all day long about what we get from the EU and the rest of the world, employment wise, and how much it 'benefits' us.

We can argue about how damaging its going to be to leave, or indeed , the far greater damage is going to be done if we now stay.

We can discuss about how this process has damaged trust in government, in democracy itself.

But there are certain inescapable facts, and I saw this meme this morning, and it pretty much summed it up for me.
It doesnt matter whether you are white English, or born elsewhere and not, if your home is the UK these are the facts.

The only people this doesnt apply to, are usually the ones that scream loudest for more EU , more globalisation, more socialism, the so called progressives.
They can afford to be progressive, because the above doesnt apply to them.
They would scoff at such an assertation, 'You havent planned properly'  'You didnt get a proper education'

It will fix nothing, and the divide grows larger and more extreme, and these disenfranchised people will get more extreme.
You cant use the social fund to buy your way out of this, because you are simply creating a larger and more difficult to reverse problem.

Brexit is about large scale change, something we desperately need.
The EU is about stagnation, continuing down the road to a poverty stricken underclass and a police state to control them.

Very good post, I genuinely feel for anyone in this position and am all to aware that the picture that paints is of far to many UK residents of working class. 

Rightly or wrongly its one of the biggest driving factors that caused me to vote leave, we need real change in this country, particularly for our young who have been priced out of owning a home, are paid a wage they can't live on or raise a family on and are then called lazy because they won't work for minimum wage in sectors that are flooded by cheap imported labour. 

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I was with you until you got to this bit. Then you went tribal with this "us and them"; a tribalistic view that is not only the wrong narrative but plays right into the hands of identity politics. Pandering to identity politics has served a number of individuals very well, very well indeed as societal differences are exploited for political gain.

Calling it 'tribalistic' is simply a way of swerving the fact that there IS a divide.

It cant be helped, it just is what it is. Call it identity politics, exploitation or whatever, the divide still exists.

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Let's explore the numbers around the pictures above:

• 650 MPs claiming 4800 per year on dining expenses = £3.12M per year
• 650 MPs salaries at 77, 379 per year = £50.296M per year
• Giving 2.2M children living in food poverty free school meals = £792M per year

So what are the pictures really telling us!?

It says quite clearly, that 650 people and their lackeys, who dont need help, get 'help' costing us £3 million a year.

Whilst 2.2 million people , who really do need help , cost us £792 million a year.

That 650 will then tell us that the 2.2 million dont need it that badly, whilst giving themselves a wage rise.

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Nobody, or at least few, are contesting that large scale change is not needed but why do the changes need to start with exiting the EU, it starts to look like a classic case of extreme externalising our problems based on the above.

Quite simple , the EU wouldnt let us make the changes necessary, it would mire us in the ECJ for years, Corbyns plans for nationalisation wouldnt get past EU rules, various social schemes also run foul of EU directorates , we are shackled to the EU federal dream of people being reliant on the state, its all about control.

 

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Nobody would argue that leaving the EU is not a big change but what we are failing to see is exactly how doing so does very much to address the issues we are facing, in fact it risks making some of them worse.

Anyone that has been involved in driving organisational change would tell you that you do it in a series of small steps - if we're going to drive reforms in the UK political landscape then I'm not sure how anyone is credibly suggesting we do that at the same time as we walk away from the EU. Where is the sense and logic in that?

As I've said before the one thing the past three years should have taught us is that we have far bigger issues closer to home that need addressing and with more urgency than leaving the EU.

Small steps is an excellent plan for forward thinking and reform but...the present situation shows exactly what happens when you try that, we cant even move forward on Brexit because our government, beholden to EU rules and diktats is paralysed by fear of what might happen.
No deal should have happened on 29.3 , we should have took the bit and run with it, the EU should have made concessions to make it work for us, and them, even if it was a temporary customs arrangement, whilst talks continued.

Instead we have looming political upheaval, and a very real possibility of economic damage.
They cant even agree how long we should delay, or what that delay is for ?
The board is now being set for a huge move backward , or forward , not small steps,  that will create change, whether we like it or not.
 

[Rewulf]

37 minutes ago, oowee said:

Rewulf we measure wealth in this country by the size of the gap between rich and poor. Gdp growth is the be all and end all. You want more wealth its going to be at the expense of another. Unless you vote Corbyn then it will be at everyones expense.

 

Do we ?
What does the nations GDP mean to someone on benefits, or sleeping in a shop doorway ?
There are other things beside wealth, there is security, happiness, we could all be multimillionaires but live grueling lives with nothing to spend it on.
China has massive GDP growth, as does India, are their populations happy ?
Maybe a very small percentage.

 

41 minutes ago, oowee said:

We need a new more representative parliament working for long term UK plc. Carry on as we are and UK plc will slowly decline eaten away by the competition, from the emerging economies. Brexit is a symptom of that distress. We need wholesale change

It might work for some people, certainly not the majority.
Brexit is indeed the  symptom of distress, it needs honouring before we can move forward with any other changes.

Otherwise nobody is going to believe a damn thing the government, ANY government says.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

Calling it 'tribalistic' is simply a way of swerving the fact that there IS a divide.

It cant be helped, it just is what it is. Call it identity politics, exploitation or whatever, the divide still exists.

It says quite clearly, that 650 people and their lackeys, who dont need help, get 'help' costing us £3 million a year.

Whilst 2.2 million people , who really do need help , cost us £792 million a year.

That 650 will then tell us that the 2.2 million dont need it that badly, whilst giving themselves a wage rise.

Quite simple , the EU wouldnt let us make the changes necessary, it would mire us in the ECJ for years, Corbyns plans for nationalisation wouldnt get past EU rules, various social schemes also run foul of EU directorates , we are shackled to the EU federal dream of people being reliant on the state, its all about control.

 

Small steps is an excellent plan for forward thinking and reform but...the present situation shows exactly what happens when you try that, we cant even move forward on Brexit because our government, beholden to EU rules and diktats is paralysed by fear of what might happen.
No deal should have happened on 29.3 , we should have took the bit and run with it, the EU should have made concessions to make it work for us, and them, even if it was a temporary customs arrangement, whilst talks continued.

Instead we have looming political upheaval, and a very real possibility of economic damage.
They cant even agree how long we should delay, or what that delay is for ?
The board is now being set for a huge move backward , or forward , not small steps,  that will create change, whether we like it or not.
 

I agree there's a divide, srcub tribalistic if you like.

You seemed to have swerved answering how leaving the EU is going to help? Brexit rumbling on and on seems like a great folly for Parliament avoiding real reform unless forced to do so through a GE or similar.

Am I also now sensing that the Brexit delay is going to be blamed for economic impact of Brexit more than Brexit itself?

[oowee]

42 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Do we ?
What does the nations GDP mean to someone on benefits, or sleeping in a shop doorway ?
There are other things beside wealth, there is security, happiness, we could all be multimillionaires but live grueling lives with nothing to spend it on.
China has massive GDP growth, as does India, are their populations happy ?
Maybe a very small percentage.

My point exactly. Lets plan for the long term not short term 5 year sound bite politics. 

[pinfireman]

Once again the UK posted stronger-than-forecast first quarter GDP after consensus economists were once again surprised by stronger than expected gains.

GDP gained 0.2% from January, when it jumped 0.5%, economists had expected output to flat-line. The pickup in February was broad based, with manufacturing rising 0.9% and construction gaining 0.4%. Good luck to remainers attibuting the rise in construction to “stockpiling”…

The trade deficit narrowed marginally in February. Exports rose and there was little evidence in the data of firms supposedly hoarding foreign goods in case of a no-deal Brexit, with imports falling in both value and volume terms. Pharma was an exception – suggesting there will be no interruption in supplies in the event of a no deal exit.

GDP grew at the fastest rate since 2017. Despite Brexit!

Naturally, the BBC will spin this differently..............but not honestly!

Source Guido Fawkes!

[Rewulf]

44 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

You seemed to have swerved answering how leaving the EU is going to help? Brexit rumbling on and on seems like a great folly for Parliament avoiding real reform unless forced to do so through a GE or similar.

I sort of answered it with this reply to oowee.
If anything, it releases us of EU oversight and meddling in any reformed laws.
It should also give us better control over trade, enabling opportunities ect.

 

47 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Brexit is indeed the  symptom of distress, it needs honouring before we can move forward with any other changes.

Otherwise nobody is going to believe a damn thing the government, ANY government says.

 

45 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Am I also now sensing that the Brexit delay is going to be blamed for economic impact of Brexit more than Brexit itself?

It already is, many commentators are citing, the inability to come to any sort of consensus on a WA  ,is far more damaging that voting for Brexit itself.

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

My point exactly. Lets plan for the long term not short term 5 year sound bite politics. 

We cant plan for anything until we leave !

[oowee]

Thank you Europe for funding this cutting edge initiative. Pushing the boundaries of the unthinkable. A bit like our Brexit planning. 

[Rewulf]

12 minutes ago, oowee said:

Thank you Europe for funding this cutting edge initiative. Pushing the boundaries of the unthinkable. A bit like our Brexit planning. 

Agreed, waste of money and boffin time.

Could be anything, and smacks of 'coming up with something to justify the budget'

Been hyped in the press for days, and then the big reveal shows , a money pit of event horizon proportions !
 

[Raja Clavata]

33 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

Once again the UK posted stronger-than-forecast first quarter GDP after consensus economists were once again surprised by stronger than expected gains.

GDP gained 0.2% from January, when it jumped 0.5%, economists had expected output to flat-line. The pickup in February was broad based, with manufacturing rising 0.9% and construction gaining 0.4%. Good luck to remainers attibuting the rise in construction to “stockpiling”…

The trade deficit narrowed marginally in February. Exports rose and there was little evidence in the data of firms supposedly hoarding foreign goods in case of a no-deal Brexit, with imports falling in both value and volume terms. Pharma was an exception – suggesting there will be no interruption in supplies in the event of a no deal exit.

GDP grew at the fastest rate since 2017. Despite Brexit!

Naturally, the BBC will spin this differently..............but not honestly!

Source Guido Fawkes!

Just imagine how good it could have been if we hadn't endured three years of Brexit torture already.

34 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

It already is, many commentators are citing, the inability to come to any sort of consensus on a WA  ,is far more damaging that voting for Brexit itself.

Only those who have the ability to see into the future I suspect, presumably funded by an EU Research Grant 😛

Shame we can't fire Brexit off towards that black hole and get back on with more pressing matters.

[Rewulf]

20 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Shame we can't fire Brexit off towards that black hole and get back on with more pressing matters.

Brexit is the most pressing issue at the moment unfortunately, when you have the daily news dominated by it, and a seemingly comatose governhment , not knowing the bottom from their elbow .

What have they done beside vote on motions (most of them to stop brexit ) lately ?

[Newbie to this]

58 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Just imagine how good it could have been if we hadn't endured three years of Brexit torture already.

Agreed, we should have left years ago, then started negotiations.

[JRDS]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

Thank you Europe for funding this cutting edge initiative. Pushing the boundaries of the unthinkable. A bit like our Brexit planning.  

Yes will help us all so much in our day to day lives, what a total waste of Taxpayers money!!  How many homeless could they have homed and fed with what they spent on this Ego trip!!  The EU showing total contempt to its Taxpayers in how it spends their money.

Edited April 10, 2019 by JRDS

[oowee]

15 minutes ago, JRDS said:

Yes will help us all so much in our day to day lives, what a total waste of Taxpayers money!!  How many homeless could they have homed and fed with what they spent on this Ego trip!!  The EU showing total contempt to its Taxpayers in how it spends their money.

🙄

[Raja Clavata]

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Agreed, waste of money and boffin time.

Could be anything, and smacks of 'coming up with something to justify the budget'

Been hyped in the press for days, and then the big reveal shows , a money pit of event horizon proportions !
 

 

1 hour ago, JRDS said:

Yes will help us all so much in our day to day lives, what a total waste of Taxpayers money!!  How many homeless could they have homed and fed with what they spent on this Ego trip!!  The EU showing total contempt to its Taxpayers in how it spends their money.

Would either of you per chance be climate change skeptics too?

[sportsbob]

4 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Agreed, we should have left years ago, then started negotiations.

+1

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

Would either of you per chance be climate change skeptics too?

Most normal people are aren't they? 😂