oowee Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 Just now, Raja Clavata said: More like Project “what the majority of the available data points to”👍 An interesting point comes to mind in this Brexit thread. Much of the ambition of Brexiteers to see Britain 'great again ' could be achieved if we had an option to change to long term politics rather than short term vote winning stuff. We could better get to grips with most of the gripes that have caused the division over the Brexit question in the first place whilst taking a grip of the EU alongside Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said: If you read back through this thread and the locked one you’ll see numerous references from a certain poster directly stating that I’m the one who needs educating. Up to now I have not intentionally implied or claimed that anyone else needs educating but in the case of the fish / pond analogy, having already stated the correct interpretation of the UK both in and out of the EU, I humbly suggest you’ll get much better satisfaction from working it out for yourself. Nope, I see nothing wrong with my analogy! The EU is a big pond the UK is one small fish in it.............when we leave the EU the UK will be the big (only) fish in the smaller UK pond! Perhaps someone other than yourself would point out the fault in my analogy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, panoma1 said: ........when we leave the EU the UK will be the big (only) fish in the smaller UK pond! Not really. We'll be out of any kind of pond at all and into the wide, wide, ocean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: The views differ across the spectrum, best to get as many sources as you can as long as you can approach it with an open mind. As you know, the same principle as any kind of research undertaking. As long as you actually do listen to, properly consider and take into account information which is contrary to, as well as that which does support your opinion....then how do you make up you mind what data is true and what is untrue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 Just now, Retsdon said: Not really. We'll be out of any kind of pond at all and into the wide, wide, ocean. Great, bring it on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 8 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Nope, I see nothing wrong with my analogy! The EU is a big pond the UK is one small fish in it.............when we leave the EU the UK will be the big (only) fish in the smaller UK pond! Perhaps someone other than yourself would point out the fault in my analogy? Think i spotted it straight away, your saying you're the only fish in the pond? We're certainly not going to be big compared to USA Australia Brazil China etc. The difference is we can choose who we deal with rather than following what the EU tells us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, panoma1 said: then how do you make up you mind what data is true and what is untrue. Follow it back to the source. 2 minutes ago, Mice! said: The difference is we can choose who we deal with rather than following what the EU tells us How does the EU tell the UK who to deal with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, Retsdon said: Not really. We'll be out of any kind of pond at all and into the wide, wide, ocean. No we won’t, we will be the (only) big fish in our own self contained pond and we will trade with whoever we want to trade with, and whoever wants to trade with us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 5 minutes ago, panoma1 said: No we won’t, we will be the (only) big fish in our own self contained pond and we will trade with whoever we want to trade with, and whoever wants to trade with us! Give it up dude 🤣🤪 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, Retsdon said: Follow it back to the source. How does the EU tell the UK who to deal with? I watched something a while back before the brexit debacle started so twenty years ago, the company were making big dingys outboard motor type, probably like RNLI use, for some reason they couldn't sell to Brazil despite there being a market for them due to EU rule, so i imagine there are a lot of similar cases of the same thing going on. I cant quote anything because i wouldn't know where to look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, panoma1 said: and we will trade with whoever we want to trade with, and whoever wants to trade with us! We can do that now! I looked through that list that someone here posted of all the countries that the UK has supposedly signed new trade agreements with. And then I went hunting for the press and government announcements. It turns out that they are all, without exception as far as I could find, rollover deals where basically the names EU and EEA had been erased the the name UK substituted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 1 minute ago, oowee said: An interesting point comes to mind in this Brexit thread. Much of the ambition of Brexiteers to see Britain 'great again ' could be achieved if we had an option to change to long term politics rather than short term vote winning stuff. We could better get to grips with most of the gripes that have caused the division over the Brexit question in the first place whilst taking a grip of the EU alongside Germany. Do you really think that we could ever take a grip of the EU?. One of my principle objections to the EU is that we have absolutely no leverage and never will have. The fatal flaw in the construct of the EU is that it is a round table, a throw back to the early days of the EEC when it was a simple trade agreement between a half dozen or so equal sized nations. That does not work when they started to build financial and political union on that flawed foundation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, Mice! said: I cant quote anything because i wouldn't know where to look. Here you go. https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/eu-position-in-world-trade/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, Retsdon said: We can do that now! I looked through that list that someone here posted of all the countries that the UK has supposedly signed new trade agreements with. And then I went hunting for the press and government announcements. It turns out that they are all, without exception as far as I could find, rollover deals where basically the names EU and EEA had been erased the the name UK substituted. Unfortunately some of the hoped for rollover deals are not happening. The 3rd parties are driving a hard bargain 🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Mice! said: Think i spotted it straight away, your saying you're the only fish in the pond? We're certainly not going to be big compared to USA Australia Brazil China etc. The difference is we can choose who we deal with rather than following what the EU tells us Size is irrelevant if your the only fish in the pond, you can identify yourself how you please, as either the biggest or the smallest...as you are the only fish in the pond, there is no other fish to compare yourself or compete with!......so as the only fish in the pond, you don’t have to share food with other larger, more voracious fish....you can have all the food you can catch for yourself! But if you are a small fish (UK) in a big pond (EU) the big fish (EU) in the pond can bully a small fish (UK) and take a disproportionate amount of the ponds food supply. Edited September 22, 2019 by panoma1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 52 minutes ago, oowee said: Well bully for you. There are a lot less fortunate than you and i. This will hit the poorest hardest. Businesses will go under. Fdi will virtualy stop and what is here now, working on tight margins will go. Tax income will reduce meaning less money for education and services. Wages will go down as we seek competetive rates. We will have to open markets where we do not want to and we will negotiate poorer trade deals than our neighbour the EU. Project fear i can hear it now. Tell me why i am wrong. Thankyou.👍 Yes, there are a lot less fortunate than you or I ( I was once one of them, but it wasn't our politicians or the EU which got me out of it ) but there always has been and always will be, whether in or out of the EU, unless you're seriously trying to suggest that remaining in the EU will prevent this of course! There is nothing within the remit of being an EU member which will prevent the poorest always being handed the ****ty end of the stick. Businesses have come and gone ( believe me I know ) whether we've been in the EU or not, and education funding has suffered in the past and will again, whether in the EU or not. I'm not suggesting you're wrong, simply that it's your opinion, and even if you're right, it will be short-lived as people get their act together, as they always have. However, if the democratic process is ignored the consequences could rumble on for decades. Tell me if anything I've posted above is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 1 minute ago, oowee said: Unfortunately some of the hoped for rollover deals are not happening. The 3rd parties are driving a hard bargain 🤣 How dare they do that to such a big fish in its own pond. Outrageous 🤪 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, Retsdon said: Here you go. https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/eu-position-in-world-trade/ Scarry to see what we will be up against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 Just now, Vince Green said: One of my principle objections to the EU is that we have absolutely no leverage and never will have. That's not actually true. Britain had lots of leverage. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2019/631739/EPRS_BRI(2019)631739_EN.pdf It was Cockfield, a British EU commissioner, who tabled the white paper that led to the birth of the EU's Single Market. The Single Market that's the now the stumbling block for Brexit was introduced by a Brit and enthusiastically endorsed by Thatcher as a counterpoint to what she saw as Delors' centralized 'socialist' endorsement of common European workers rights. Mrs T won that battle. Cameron got an opt out clause from any kind of 'ever closer union'. And so on and so on. When the British were in the game they had lots of influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 57 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Well I’m certainly not part of any social elite. Ironically I believe pretty much the same is true of the elite behind Brexit who used the frustrations of the man on the street to vote for Brexit which will ultimately make that element of the elite even more elite, driving more people into poverty which will in turn burden those of us in the middle ground helping the impoverished through taxes and the like. Neither am I. Indeed, it would be very interesting to learn just what the likes of Gina Miller has to lose by leaving, or the Kinnocks (😂) or Blair, Major, Osbourne, Clegg, Cameron etc etc etc. And just what others on the opposing side have to gain, like Mogg, Farage etc etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 15 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Give it up dude 🤣🤪 Nah! Not yet! Explain where and why you claim my fish analogy is wrong.........Either put up or shut up! Lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 42 minutes ago, oowee said: An interesting point comes to mind in this Brexit thread. Much of the ambition of Brexiteers to see Britain 'great again ' could be achieved if we had an option to change to long term politics rather than short term vote winning stuff. We could better get to grips with most of the gripes that have caused the division over the Brexit question in the first place whilst taking a grip of the EU alongside Germany. I don't ever expect to see Britain 'great' again, if indeed it ever was, I simply don't want to see us part of one big homogeneous lump of an empire, ruled by an unaccountable elite. 9 minutes ago, oowee said: Scarry to see what we will be up against. Yeah...not sure I'll sleep tonight now! 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, Retsdon said: Here you go. https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/eu-position-in-world-trade/ That contains a lot of propaganda which is easy to show to be misleading. Lets just look at one example, they say the EU has 500 million consumers, true as far as it goes but most of those consumers are in countries that are skint and wont be buying anything from us because they have no money. How is that good for us? Its not, but those same skint countries still have their feet in the trough. I think its well worth fore going the miniscule trading opportunities with countries like Estonia, Hungary and Latvia if it means not having to pour money into the trough. simple cost/benefit analysis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 14 minutes ago, Scully said: Thankyou.👍 Yes, there are a lot less fortunate than you or I ( I was once one of them, but it wasn't our politicians or the EU which got me out of it ) but there always has been and always will be, whether in or out of the EU, unless you're seriously trying to suggest that remaining in the EU will prevent this of course! There is nothing within the remit of being an EU member which will prevent the poorest always being handed the ****ty end of the stick. Businesses have come and gone ( believe me I know ) whether we've been in the EU or not, and education funding has suffered in the past and will again, whether in the EU or not. I'm not suggesting you're wrong, simply that it's your opinion, and even if you're right, it will be short-lived as people get their act together, as they always have. However, if the democratic process is ignored the consequences could rumble on for decades. Tell me if anything I've posted above is wrong. I would not argue with much of what you say but its a needless pain to go through. The short time is likely to be for several life times whilst we continue to trade many points below where we would otherwise have been. At a time when the competition for resources and managing the decline of the planet is getting ever critical we choose to opt to abandon the strength that is the EU. It does not make sense that a great nation like ours cannot bend the will of the EU but thinks it can cut a dash in the big pond. We will get through it because soon we will realise that the regulatory framework arrangements that are the EU are where we have to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted September 22, 2019 Report Share Posted September 22, 2019 12 minutes ago, oowee said: Scarry to see what we will be up against. It's not just who we will be up against. It's also who we won't have looking out for our back. The EU has serious negotiating muscle. https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/policy-making/enforcement-and-protection/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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