Lead ban & BASC

[Old farrier]

2 minutes ago, southeastpete said:

So if a lead ban actually came in, and all these little guns couldn’t be used with steel, would they become ‘obselete calibres’? And not need a licence?

Probably not as you can still use them for clay shooting with lead 

[rbrowning2]

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

Moving forward 

Ideas on how this can become available 

 

No and by the sound of it neither have the uk cartridge manufactures.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

Ideas on how this can become available

I believe that there will be a suitable 2 1/2" 12 bore cartridge - steel pellets, some sort of bio-degradeable wad.  On price - guess is that it would be broadly similar to lead (not bismuth).  (Steel is not fundamentally expensive as a material, but bismuth is, and the 'new' wad should hopefully not be all that expensive when in quantity production).

I suspect that we may have to be a little more careful to ensure we know the effective range - my guess being it will be a bit less, but I may be wrong on that.  For most people on 'normal' type shoots, this probably would be acceptable.  I would be quite happy to raise my cap rather than my gun to a really high bird where I knew my gun/cartridge was limited.  In my type of shooting that would be relatively few and far between as we see most birds in a very 'normal' range.  I would expect 16 and 20 to be similar to 12, 16 being more popular in Europe, so has the volume of demand.

That is my hope.

On small bores like 28 and 0.410, I think that availability will be more questionable as the volume isn't there.

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

I believe that there will be a suitable 2 1/2" 12 bore cartridge - steel pellets, some sort of bio-degradeable wad.  On price - guess is that it would be broadly similar to lead (not bismuth).  (Steel is not fundamentally expensive as a material, but bismuth is, and the 'new' wad should hopefully not be all that expensive when in quantity production).

I suspect that we may have to be a little more careful to ensure we know the effective range - my guess being it will be a bit less, but I may be wrong on that.  For most people on 'normal' type shoots, this probably would be acceptable.  I would be quite happy to raise my cap rather than my gun to a really high bird where I knew my gun/cartridge was limited.  In my type of shooting that would be relatively few and far between as we see most birds in a very 'normal' range.  I would expect 16 and 20 to be similar to 12, 16 being more popular in Europe, so has the volume of demand.

That is my hope.

On small bores like 28 and 0.410, I think that availability will be more questionable as the volume isn't there.

Thank you for the positive reply 😊👍

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

Thank you for the positive reply 😊👍

We have 5 years to sort something; There is demand, there will be competition to fulfil the demand, I strongly suspect that there is a 'solution', but it may not be ideal, or suit everyone.  If we convince ourselves on month one out of 60 that "it can't be done" and so don't try, then it probably won't be done!

The cartridge manufacturers know their game - and will have to work a route forwards - and it will need investment in R&D to get the product that will sell.  But then - that is true of all innovative industry - and actually us what the UK used to do well.

[mick miller]

Riddle me this, if lead in any amount is toxic and birds are picking up the lead pellets mistaken for seed or grit (GWCT statement) then how are clay grounds to be exempted? Do birds not visit clay grounds? Do none have ponds or lakes with wildfowl present?

I can think of at least three, within 20 miles that do and have. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by mick miller

[clangerman]

4 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Moving forward 

for any of this to be workable there needs to be a readily available and accessible cartridge that meets the criteria 

non toxic degradable wad that is mass produced effective and safe 

with a level of affordability to the mass shooting population 

Ideas on how this can become available 

the box has been opened and for now we must work together to try to make a future for shooting 

the criteria for a cartridge we need to meet is the one acceptable to joe public without his support we remain on borrowed time the incompetents who caused this could have and should have found out what that is before lifting a finger first order of business should getting rid of the idiots who couldn’t run water downhill if they come out from hiding today 

[rbrowning2]

33 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

The cartridge manufacturers know their game - and will have to work a route forwards - and it will need investment in R&D to get the product that will sell.  But then - that is true of all innovative industry - and actually us what the UK used to do well.

I would like to share your positive thoughts but when the leading uk cartridge manufactures statement concludes with IMPOSSIBLE who are we not to believe them after all they should know.

 

[wymberley]

29 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

We have 5 years to sort something; There is demand, there will be competition to fulfil the demand, I strongly suspect that there is a 'solution', but it may not be ideal, or suit everyone.  If we convince ourselves on month one out of 60 that "it can't be done" and so don't try, then it probably won't be done!

The cartridge manufacturers know their game - and will have to work a route forwards - and it will need investment in R&D to get the product that will sell.  But then - that is true of all innovative industry - and actually us what the UK used to do well.

Re your last phrase - did we? If I remember rightly it was often a case of JIT. Sooner or later that 'll turn into JTL. I just hope that we don't mark the turning point.

[Scully]

31 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Riddle me this, if lead in any amount is toxic and birds are picking up the lead pellets mistaken for seed or grit (GWCT statement) then how are clay grounds to be exempted? Do birds not visit clay grounds? Do none have ponds or lakes with wildfowl present?

I can think of at least three, within 20 miles that do and have. 

Fair points. 

[lancer425]

7 hours ago, AULD YIN said:

It would be better put

My representative body (SACS) who claim they understood the cartridge  companies  had been consulted or the commercial cartridge companies who claim  not to have been, now what  sounds more plausible ?

lancer  are you affiliated to BASC  30 pages, you average 4 or more posts per page ,makes a  LOT of posts JUST ASKING

Yes i am indeed a BASC member, it is just as a Wildfowling club member. I am in five Clubs, four of which have BASC club subscription in the club subs. i have to claim back the three BASC subs, because i am a poverty stricken peasant. But if i was more affluent i would love to leave BASC with all my subs. They do a fantastic job and for the money i am more than happy.

   My input here>? Well i am an active Fox shooter and Wildfowler, i have connections to game shooting, in that we my family have land that is shot over by a local syndicate.  I do not usually bother with game shooting  but this lead ban involves us all.

I am not pro lead or against Lead. But i know its Toxic and i believe it will eventually be banned no matter what.

I have been wildfowling since i was a kid , and as such was there when non lead  came in to wildfowling. I know what steel can do and most other non tox shot types, although i only have about 3 years experience with TSS and the other HWs.

 Many posts made are to try and offer my generally positive experience with steel shot in waterfowling and pigeon shooting. I genuinely believe many on this forum and other media are largely inexperienced with steel, and some posts on here show this quite clearly.  You will find most of the people contributing a more positive approach to steel, are wildfowlers.  It is no stranger to us and we seem to kill much bigger birds and at longer ranges rgan many game shooters do. And often we use steel, which although the lightest of the non lead shots we use it is by far the most prolific in use for wioldfowling today.

 

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

I would like to share your positive thoughts but when the leading uk cartridge manufactures statement concludes with IMPOSSIBLE who are we not to believe them after all they should know.

 

The 'impossible' always takes a bit longer!  No - seriously, I suspect that there will be some compromise of performance - and we as sporting shooters will need to take that on board and adjust accordingly.

 

3 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Re your last phrase - did we? If I remember rightly it was often a case of JIT. Sooner or later that 'll turn into JTL. I just hope that we don't mark the turning point.

It may be a long way back, but the likes of Joe Manton - who is regarded the 'father' of the modern gun trade, Brunel, Alec Issigonis, all did their finest work in the UK.

[wymberley]

The point I was making was that in spite of the fact that we can see the need for something, we have a history of leaving it to the last minute. One example that stands out among many is 1939 and aircraft - or more accurately, very few.

[Farmboy91]

45 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Riddle me this, if lead in any amount is toxic and birds are picking up the lead pellets mistaken for seed or grit (GWCT statement) then how are clay grounds to be exempted? Do birds not visit clay grounds? Do none have ponds or lakes with wildfowl present?

I can think of at least three, within 20 miles that do and have. 

+1 

Last time we visited East of England there are targets being directly driven then hit, (or missed in my case 😂) directly over a large pond. 

Never understood that anymore than having to use steel over farmland on wildfowl but there you go.

Just now, Farmboy91 said:

 

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Farmboy91

[lancer425]

2 hours ago, islandgun said:

Could it be a sop to WJ. We give you lead, if you let us rear and release more Pheasants

Anything is possible, but i somehow dont see that scenario. But time will tell.  Perhaps.!

[Smokersmith]

23 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

 Many posts made are to try and offer my generally positive experience with steel shot in waterfowling and pigeon shooting. I genuinely believe many on this forum and other media are largely inexperienced with steel, and some posts on here show this quite clearly.  You will find most of the people contributing a more positive approach to steel, are wildfowlers.  It is no stranger to us and we seem to kill much bigger birds and at longer ranges rgan many game shooters do. And often we use steel, which although the lightest of the non lead shots we use it is by far the most prolific in use for wioldfowling today.

True .

What is concerning is that virtually all of these positive experiences will have been using plastic wads.

Development needs to come at pace .... I think it will, but with no plan in place, our orgs need to have a flexible approach if the developments don't make it to mainstream at the right effectiveness and pace.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Smokersmith

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, southeastpete said:

So if a lead ban actually came in, and all these little guns couldn’t be used with steel, would they become ‘obselete calibres’? And not need a licence?

They can be used with steel and other non tox. Just most do not want to accept it.

 

[rbrowning2]

Johnfromuk,  the reason the cartridge manufactures have said impossible is because the non biodegradable wads just do not exist in the quantity required and they are only just fit for purpose in 12ga.

but the video regarding using steel shot with normal fibre wads was very interesting I have a old no value single barrel 20gauge I used to use to introduce young people to clay shooting I think I will try with some light loaded steel shot and see what damage if any is done to the barrel. Will try the copper plated steel shot.  After all the gun has no financial value. 

And it certainly will not be steel proofed so will not try to match superior steel loads.

Edited February 29, 2020 by rbrowning2

[JohnfromUK]

15 minutes ago, wymberley said:

The point I was making was that in spite of the fact that we can see the need for something, we have a history of leaving it to the last minute. One example that stands out among many is 1939 and aircraft - or more accurately, very few.

Agreed - and also these days getting the right permissions, legislation, CE marking, licenses etc takes longer than the development.

That should be better outside the EU ........ but it won't be, because the bureaucrats will want to keep the upper hand.  Thats why the various professions who chase figures round a spreadsheet (bean counters) and words round a page (legal eagles) are among the best remunerated in our society.  We cherish and reward bureaucracy - and stifle innovation.

So often the Joe Publics - who claim to be against bureaucracy - come out with phrases like "that should be licensed", "they should have to get permission for that" or those "should be regulated and controlled".  Claim to dislike red tape - then call for more.

Apologies for the rant, but a pet hate of mine!

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Johnfromuk,  the reason the cartridge manufactures have said impossible is because the non biodegradable wads just do not exist in the quantity required and they are only just fit for purpose in 12ga.

but the video regarding using steel shot with normal fibre wads was very interesting I have a old no value single barrel 20gauge I used to use to introduce young people to clay shooting I think I will try with some light loaded steel shot and see what damage if any is done to the barrel. Will try the copper plated steel shot.  After all the gun has no financial value. 

And it certainly will not be steel proofed so will not try to match superior steel loads.

And I will be looking to see what 'emerges' on the market in 2 1/2" for my older 12's.  In 5 years with focussed R&D on bio-degradeable (including lots for other 'plastic' products), new materials may be developed.  Agreed they don't exist now, but in time I think they will.  In theory - this is 5 years - then a 'voluntary' ban.  If there is no sensible practical alternative by then - they are going to find volunteers hard to find ....... and that may bring legislation ........ or realisation that it won't work.

[rbrowning2]

Lancer425, nice video thanks for posting, that is one hell of a lot of ducks near the end of the video and as a fan of 28ga these days always nice to see the small gauges in use and enthusiastic users of them.

 

[wymberley]

10 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Agreed - and also these days getting the right permissions, legislation, CE marking, licenses etc takes longer than the development.

That should be better outside the EU ........ but it won't be, because the bureaucrats will want to keep the upper hand.  Thats why the various professions who chase figures round a spreadsheet (bean counters) and words round a page (legal eagles) are among the best remunerated in our society.  We cherish and reward bureaucracy - and stifle innovation.

So often the Joe Publics - who claim to be against bureaucracy - come out with phrases like "that should be licensed", "they should have to get permission for that" or those "should be regulated and controlled".  Claim to dislike red tape - then call for more.

Apologies for the rant, but a pet hate of mine!

As said, none of this affects me - I don't even need to buy any more cartridges except for a slack handful for something for clays on the odd occasion. But I do hope that this doesn't turn out to be our exocet.

[Gordon R]

Quote

I would be quite happy to raise my cap rather than my gun to a really high bird where I knew my gun/cartridge was limited.  

Well said.

[lancer425]

33 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

True .

What is concerning is that virtually all of these positive experiences will have been using plastic wads.

Development needs to come at pace .... I think it will, but with no plan in place, our orgs need to have a flexible approach if the developments don't make it to mainstream at the right effectiveness and pace.

I do not know.   But Wildfowlers need to go with what we have available right now. You know they will shut us down if they can.

  Only one option these card/ fibre cups, Not ideal i know but i do not see another option. I heard that do not like big shot BBB but he felt better with smaller shot. But just to complicate things lad was using a mossberg 835. Which i am sure you know is a 12 with a ten barrel, so this could have worked for these wads or against them , verdict is out on that he never bought any more.

One Idea i thought about was a hybrid wad sleeve on top of a op or card seal nittro card and then a silicone "Hybrid Synthetic Rubber X  synthetic plastic" tube wad slit 7/8ths down on the nitro.

Not sure on the plastics involved or if other options of this thin hose exist yet, but supper tough and if more rubbery options out there just not sure.

Again the wrapper idea, Could there be a fabric?  Just do not know right now. sure it will come good just a case of sorting something out. I just bought an old fabarb 3 inch auto yesterday hard chrome barrels i am prepared to wreck if need be to see if i can get these card cups working without scratching barrels.

[lancer425]

37 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Lancer425, nice video thanks for posting, that is one hell of a lot of ducks near the end of the video and as a fan of 28ga these days always nice to see the small gauges in use and enthusiastic users of them.

 

There genuinely is a world out there without lead , and that’s true for the small bores too. I am more concerned about plaswads than i ever am about non tox shot.

 A comical observation here. Lead we have/ had it for water pipes, now copper is the main water pipe being rapidly replaced by plastic.  Seems we are drinking through pipes flushing waste abrasion in the plastic directly into the  sewers  drains etc. We our internals seem very closely linked to all these very bad things.