Police Action

[GingerCat]

27 minutes ago, stumfelter said:

And there's me thinking it was because all the fast food outlets are closed....😁😁

You'll be lucky. They all bring salads and healthy food in these days. I suggested a kebab the other night and nearly got shot. Had to eat one on my own facing the corner. Millennials. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

Not guidelines!.........our rights should be clearly laid out in Law!.....otherwise we’ll soon get in the same mess as the interpretation of “guidelines”, the police has landed us in with firearm licensing!

'Should'  but they arent, as I said.

 

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

but there has to be very clear guidelines (which there arent at the moment)

 

[GingerCat]

The law is pretty simple. It's written down for all to see. Can't be anymore simple than that. The odd case changes things a bit but ultimately it's written down. Shouldn't have to spoon feed everyone or they lose the ability to think. 

[panoma1]

24 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

The law is pretty simple. It's written down for all to see. Can't be anymore simple than that. The odd case changes things a bit but ultimately it's written down. Shouldn't have to spoon feed everyone or they lose the ability to think. 

The law says nothing about applicants being compelled to pay GP’s whatever they ask to provide a letter to the police (which is also not stipulated in law!) on the threat that if applicants don't comply.....they will be refused a certificate!
 

It has nothing to do with spoon feeding.......it needs to be specific, so both the police and the public know exactly what is required.......so the police can’t add on their own conditions!
 

I hear there are already complaints being raised and questions asked, regarding police in certain areas, being “overzealous” in enforcing (abusing?) the new powers given to them by the government due to Corona virus?

[GingerCat]

4 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

The law says nothing about applicants being compelled to pay GP’s whatever they ask to provide a letter to the police (which is also not stipulated in law!) on the threat that if applicants don't comply.....they will be refused a certificate!
 

It has nothing to do with spoon feeding.......it needs to be specific, so both the police and the public know exactly what is required.......so the police can’t add on their own conditions!
 

I hear there are already complaints being raised and questions asked, regarding police in certain areas, being “overzealous” in enforcing (abusing?) the new powers given to them by the government due to Corona virus?

I was talking about preemptive strikes. Not the gp letter. 

However to answer your point, the law states the "chief constable must be satisfied" leaves it pretty much up to him/her as to what that will be. They have said a gp report . That's what it is then. We all know that. 

As to the Corona powers, they are so far reaching it would be hard to abuse. I've already said I'm not a fan but they are what they are. Again you can read them as they are written down for you 

Edited March 30, 2020 by GingerCat

[panoma1]

1 hour ago, GingerCat said:

However to answer your point, the law states the "chief constable must be satisfied" leaves it pretty much up to him/her as to what that will be. They have said a gp report . That's what it is then. We all know that. 

Exactly...........our elected lawmakers have abdicated their democratic responsibility by devolving the authority to impose conditions (which the electorate are required to follow) to an appointed public employee!

Rules are informal laws, laws are formal rules........the chief constables are introducing informal laws (rules) without the checks and balances of formal law, but with the same effect!....they have even imposed penalties (no GP’s letter no certificate) to ensure these informal laws are followed.......this is not democracy......... it’s more reminiscent of a police state!

 

 

[GingerCat]

It's far far from a police state.

[panoma1]

27 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

It's far far from a police state.

If “guilty until you prove yourself innocent”, continues to be supported by some in authority....if it ain’t now? it soon could be!

 

 

[GingerCat]

Hgv drivers need a medical report as do pilots and many others. How is having access to a firearm any different? Why are we so special we don't need it? If the burden of proof was as you say and the police making it up as the went along don't you think one or perhaps all of the shooting organisations would have taken it to court? Instead they sat with the police and gps and discussed it, promoted it, basceven have their own drsto help out and provide reports. The public by and large will be supportive of it. 

You can't argue that upsetting a minority when the majority support it is not policing by consent because you simply  don't like it. 

Far from a police state. I've nothing more to add to this. 

[Jaymo]

40 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

Hgv drivers need a medical report as do pilots and many others. How is having access to a firearm any different? Why are we so special we don't need it? If the burden of proof was as you say and the police making it up as the went along don't you think one or perhaps all of the shooting organisations would have taken it to court? Instead they sat with the police and gps and discussed it, promoted it, basceven have their own drsto help out and provide reports. The public by and large will be supportive of it. 

You can't argue that upsetting a minority when the majority support it is not policing by consent because you simply  don't like it. 

Far from a police state. I've nothing more to add to this. 

I fully support the need/ requirement to pay towards the time of the GP, we cannot expect the State to pay for ‘our hobbies’

As said above, I pay for every year for my French Licence and the €25 to get a stamp on the back of my licence from my GP there.

Ive also paid here too for my last renewal- think it was around £30 and this Licence lasts five years, far better value.

 

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, GingerCat said:

Hgv drivers need a medical report as do pilots and many others. How is having access to a firearm any different? Why are we so special we don't need it? If the burden of proof was as you say and the police making it up as the went along don't you think one or perhaps all of the shooting organisations would have taken it to court? Instead they sat with the police and gps and discussed it, promoted it, basceven have their own drsto help out and provide reports. The public by and large will be supportive of it. 

You can't argue that upsetting a minority when the majority support it is not policing by consent because you simply  don't like it. 

Far from a police state. I've nothing more to add to this. 

It does make me laugh how much people are against needing a GP letter to have a FAC certificate,  but they'll happily buy all the gear.

Stay safe GC, and not too many kebabs 🤣🤣

[old man]

On 29/03/2020 at 16:21, 12gauge82 said:

I think policing needs some common sense back in the system, cut the red tape, get rid of 90% of paper work, trust the individual officers more and allow them to use discretion, stop recruitment of officers who just tick certain boxes, stop using the police to solve non policing issue's, freeing up the officers to deal with actual crime would be a good start.

 

Agreed to some extent but to do that would mean the loss of political control so will never be permitted?

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, i think Derbyshire police are getting some flack sending a drone up to film 2 walkers on the moors, but then you get the video of the police in Peckham trying to do their job and putting up with these YOBS

[panoma1]

12 hours ago, GingerCat said:

Hgv drivers need a medical report as do pilots and many others. How is having access to a firearm any different? Why are we so special we don't need it? If the burden of proof was as you say and the police making it up as the went along don't you think one or perhaps all of the shooting organisations would have taken it to court? Instead they sat with the police and gps and discussed it, promoted it, basceven have their own drsto help out and provide reports. The public by and large will be supportive of it. 

You can't argue that upsetting a minority when the majority support it is not policing by consent because you simply  don't like it. 

Far from a police state. I've nothing more to add to this. 

If you can’t see the difference between needing an HGV or PSV or Pilots licence for your occupation....and a gun licence for your leisure, I don’t think you are looking hard enough.....what next a licence to carry a knife as an aid to your leisure pursuit or professionally? Or a licence to carry golf clubs as they could be used against the public, as an offensive weapon?
I didn’t say the police were “making it up as they went along” I said they are adding mandatory informal laws to formal laws to suit themselves and their own agenda!

My understanding is BASC and other shooting organisations were involved in and supportive of the original agreement as per the HO guidance.....but the GP’s reneged on the agreement, so the police added extra informal laws in support of the GP’s.....result......... the losers were the shooting community, who are losing out financially!.......the shooting organisations couldn’t take this matter to court because the politicians gave the power to unelected public employees (chief constables) to introduce any informal laws/rules they chose.........to their personal “satisfaction”

BASC don’t support the process.....they have been forced to find supportive GP’s to circumvent the ridiculous fees some GP’s are charging applicants for providing what the police are demanding applicants provide!
 

In a fair Democratic society, the powerful majority don’t tread all over the rights of a minority (as long as what this minority do is legal!)....Just because they don’t agree with them, or like what they do..........if they do, isn’t that the actions of a police state?

And as for your claim the UK are not acting like a police state....have you seen the news today? Even the politicians are concerned some police (Derbyshire and elsewhere) are enforcing the emergency corona virus laws “overzealously and heavy handedly”....and in interviews using the term “police state”

I too have nothing more to add to this!

 

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by panoma1
Letters missing! 🤨

[udderlyoffroad]

23 hours ago, GingerCat said:

The police are a political. Thusly they only enforce what the state wants

Sadly there a way too many fiefdoms, Chief Inspectors having their ear bent by their neighbours, and yes, dare I say it, the funny-handshake-brigade (in the higher ranks), to lend credibility to your apolitical claim.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure response officers and anyone without serious shoulder-metal is fighting the good fight, trying to hold onto that thin blue line.

But policing in this country has some seriously confused priorities, and that was before the current pandemic.

For instance, why the incessant 'monitoring' of social media?  It's just words, rendered digitally?  Unless there is a credible and imminent threat to life or property, the constabulary have no business wasting their time online.   All prosecutions for so called 'hate speech' need consigning to history along with other facist nonsense such as public lynchings and burning books.  Am fairly certain a lot of front line officers share this view.

But don't get me wrong Gingercat, I for one am not trying to hold you up as some kind of spokesman for your profession/vocation.  My views above are a polite exchange of views, not trying to challenge you and demanding answers.

 

1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

If you can’t see the difference between needing an HGV or PSV or Pilots licence for your occupation....and a gun licence for your leisure, I don’t think you are looking hard enough

 Can you really imagine, in 2020, that a check of medical records won't happen prior to being granted an SGC/FAC?  BASC have introduced a scheme to connect doctors with applicants who are struggling, for a nominal fee. Seriously, even in the US this is checked, albeit inconsistently.  Just what is the big deal?

 

1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

what next a licence to carry a knife as an aid to your leisure pursuit or professionally? Or a licence to carry golf clubs as they could be used against the public, as an offensive weapon?

A certain mayor of London would like that, and quite a lot of people would go along with it.  It sounds perverse, but maybe the threat of something like that being imposed is what we need to have a proper debate about the future of civil liberties in this country.

[GingerCat]

2 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

For instance, why the incessant 'monitoring' of social media?  It's just words, rendered digitally?  Unless there is a credible and imminent threat to life or property, the constabulary have no business wasting their time online.   

 

Ok I bit. I don't disagree. However  Social media is not monitored. People get upset and report it to police. The crime standards apply legislation written before social media existed (Mal coms for example). Not investigating it could be a disciplinary matter or criminal depending on the circumstances. So now Its now a crime and needs to be investigated. Granted these investigations don't tend to go very far. Some rightly do for various reason. Free speech also gives the right to offend (which ironically often offends people hence the no platforming we often see at universities). I'd like some reform in the police but where it matters like legislation,codes of practice, more nationalised procedures (it's getting there), a national police force if even for road policing and not just cutting pay, pensions and staffing levels whilst requiring them to take on more work from the NHS, social services whilst telling them they've never had it so good. As it stands a shelf stacker working nights in a supermarket earns more than a cop for the first 2 years of service. That cop is required to have a degree now, has a family to support, can be forced to work and has their days off cancelled at will to supply "extra" officers. No wonder they are leaving so quickly after joining. 

[udderlyoffroad]

12 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

a national police force if even for road policing

I think the 'Police Scotland' experience means it's inevitable, but probably to Wales first, then England.  The replicating of centralised functions (IT, payroll, HR for civilian staff....the list goes on and on) is frankly a waste of money.

 

15 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

Social media is not monitored. People get upset and report it to police.

I don't doubt you, but that's not the impression certain forces have been trying to give.  Their social media channels imply they actively monitor.  I can't find a good screengrab of that ATM, but here's an example of the confused priorities I was citing:

 

As for the requirement to have a degree, I understood this was a headline, but the real drive behind it was to have some other kind of life experience (no I know being student doesn't count in most peoples' eyes), so you don't get 18 year old lads joining up who don't have any other real-world experience.

[GingerCat]

7 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I think the 'Police Scotland' experience means it's inevitable, but probably to Wales first, then England.  The replicating of centralised functions (IT, payroll, HR for civilian staff....the list goes on and on) is frankly a waste of money.

 

I don't doubt you, but that's not the impression certain forces have been trying to give.  Their social media channels imply they actively monitor.  I can't find a good screengrab of that ATM, but here's an example of the confused priorities I was citing:

 

As for the requirement to have a degree, I understood this was a headline, but the real drive behind it was to have some other kind of life experience (no I know being student doesn't count in most peoples' eyes), so you don't get 18 year old lads joining up who don't have any other real-world experience.

They may encourage reporting but it's not monitored by police which is the view some people have. Edited to add our views wont be far apart on this  

As for 18 years olds, they never really took many anyway. I know of 3. 

Edited March 31, 2020 by GingerCat

[mel b3]

I can just imagine what the average copper must be thinking ,when he has to turn out to investigate two Jeremy kyle throwbacks, that are having a Facebook spat  over a packet of fags and a bag of weed on giro day , he must really want to give them both a good bitch slap 😅.

[Mice!]

13 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

I can just imagine what the average copper must be thinking ,when he has to turn out to investigate two Jeremy kyle throwbacks, that are having a Facebook spat  over a packet of fags and a bag of weed on giro day , he must really want to give them both a good bitch slap 😅.

We need a like button 😁

I watched something last night on BBC possibly, about the police,  the amount of time spent going to ridiculous petty arguments like the above was shocking, coppers leaving because they are fed up wasting time being called to nonsense call outs.

 

[Jaymo]

3 hours ago, panoma1 said:

If you can’t see the difference between needing an HGV or PSV or Pilots licence for your occupation....and a gun licence for your leisure, I don’t think you are looking hard enough.....what next a licence to carry a knife as an aid to your leisure pursuit or professionally? Or a licence to carry golf clubs as they could be used against the public, as an offensive weapon?
I didn’t say the police were “making it up as they went along” I said they are adding mandatory informal laws to formal laws to suit themselves and their own agenda!

My understanding is BASC and other shooting organisations were involved in and supportive of the original agreement as per the HO guidance.....but the GP’s reneged on the agreement, so the police added extra informal laws in support of the GP’s.....result......... the losers were the shooting community, who are losing out financially!.......the shooting organisations couldn’t take this matter to court because the politicians gave the power to unelected public employees (chief constables) to introduce any informal laws/rules they chose.........to their personal “satisfaction”

BASC don’t support the process.....they have been forced to find supportive GP’s to circumvent the ridiculous fees some GP’s are charging applicants for providing what the police are demanding applicants provide!
 

In a fair Democratic society, the powerful majority don’t tread all over the rights of a minority (as long as what this minority do is legal!)....Just because they don’t agree with them, or like what they do..........if they do, isn’t that the actions of a police state?

And as for your claim the UK are not acting like a police state....have you seen the news today? Even the politicians are concerned some police (Derbyshire and elsewhere) are enforcing the emergency corona virus laws “overzealously and heavy handedly”....and in interviews using the term “police state”

I too have nothing more to add to this!

 

 

Yet people happily pay for a Fishing Licence, Boat Licence and some people are even rumoured to pay for a TV licence !!!!!!

[AVB]

36 minutes ago, Mice! said:

We need a like button 😁

I watched something last night on BBC possibly, about the police,  the amount of time spent going to ridiculous petty arguments like the above was shocking, coppers leaving because they are fed up wasting time being called to nonsense call outs.

 

But somebody is telling them to investigate those. Gingercat said the other day that local commanders set the priorities on what offences to investigate based upon resource demands (answer to my question on why Extinction Rebellion were allowed to blockade roads in Cambridge). So surely the same people need to give their heads a wobble and tell coppers not to bother investigating stupid spats like arguments on Facebook etc. Where are these commanders getting their priorities from?   

[GingerCat]

26 minutes ago, AVB said:

But somebody is telling them to investigate those. Gingercat said the other day that local commanders set the priorities on what offences to investigate based upon resource demands (answer to my question on why Extinction Rebellion were allowed to blockade roads in Cambridge). So surely the same people need to give their heads a wobble and tell coppers not to bother investigating stupid spats like arguments on Facebook etc. Where are these commanders getting their priorities from?   

That was specific to things like extinction rebellion. Policing public order take lots of cops, more cops than you probably have let alone be able to retain a function outside of it and attend car crashes, fights etc. Often the only thing to do is  watch from the sidelines with limited interference as ultimately it's a lawful protest.

Incidents such as domestics have to be attended, often it's like the tv portrays, occasionally it's a murder and a fair bit of the time its somewhere in between. You won't know till you go there and you don't want to go alone as you'll get beaten up by both of them the second you decide to arrest one. 

[panoma1]

1 hour ago, Jaymo said:

Yet people happily pay for a Fishing Licence, Boat Licence and some people are even rumoured to pay for a TV licence !!!!!!

Come on! No one happily pays for any licence!............however, the law states that all gun owners must pay for a gun licence, which I suppose is fair enough........what I object to, is gun owners being required by the police (on the threat of not being granted a gun licence) to obtain and pay for a medical report, for which gun owners must pay a private third party, whatever amount they want to charge for it!........Especially when it was agreed by all parties involved in the review, that provision of a report by the GP (and placing a marker on an applicants medical records) would be at no cost to the applicant!

[mel b3]

1 hour ago, GingerCat said:

you don't want to go alone as you'll get beaten up by both of them the second you decide to arrest one. 

That reminds me of when I worked the doors . You'd have some drunk bloke belting the life out of his equally drunk Mrs, as soon as you dragged him off  , they'd both start punching you 😆.

 

Most police officers are pretty decent folks , with a good sense of right and wrong , and a strong desire to help another person in need , but ,much of what they do , will be decided by snowflake pencilnecks , sitting in an office , with one eye on promotion , and another eye on their pension , and maybe even a knighthood.  The average member of the public , will only see the action of the police officer, and will have no understanding of why it's being done .  Speaking to friends that are , and have been police officers,  they don't always like the way that things are done either.