Update from BASC / DEFRA

[PeterHenry]

29 minutes ago, David BASC said:

Yes we are seeking further clarification

No we have not asked for a separate legal view, not sure what they would achieve, when we have been given guidance by Defra in relation to the UK Gov rules.

Yes you are covered by the BASC insurance, as you always have been, when shooting legally

David

David,

The point would be to provide reassurance to the membership.

Not necessarily a 'separate legal view', whatever is meant by that - but i'm presuming you have access to in house legal counsel of some kind, or failing that some sort of pro bono service from members / executives who are lawyers?

Peter

[TIGHTCHOKE]

We are currently in unprecedented times.

The lockdown approach appears to be working in the United Kingdom by giving the NHS the breathing space to prepare for the mass uptake that we all hope will not happen.

The lockdown was poorly followed in Italy and Spain, they have the highest case numbers and the highest death rates.

I would love to be out shooting woodpigeons, I have farmers that have drilled their fields contacting me.

I cannot get to any of my permissions without driving. I would normally go with a Mate, but that would mean being in the same vehicle.

I am sitting at home between working shifts, essential shopping, gardening and tidying up.

 

I will comply with the lockdown because I can see the advantage of doing what I am told and massively reducing social contact.

[Bobba]

David, as I understand it the BASC was attempting to  contact the ACC concerned with these matters to obtain confirmation that there would be uniformity of application across all police forces. Has this happened please? For example, as I understand it Durham say pest control ok, Avon and Somerset say no.

[David BASC]

At the end of the day, if this were tested it would ultimately be in a Court, a lawyers view beforehand is not going to make much difference. The key issue is to get a consistent and pragmatic view of essential business travel etc accepted by the enforcing bodies, as I said  updates will be on the BASC website and the FAQ's on the webpage here:  https://basc.org.uk/coronavirus/  are being updated as and when we get more information.

[PeterHenry]

14 minutes ago, David BASC said:

At the end of the day, if this were tested it would ultimately be in a Court, a lawyers view beforehand is not going to make much difference. The key issue is to get a consistent and pragmatic view of essential business travel etc accepted by the enforcing bodies, as I said  updates will be on the BASC website and the FAQ's on the webpage here:  https://basc.org.uk/coronavirus/  are being updated as and when we get more information.

Sorry, but that is incredibly naive.

I'm also takeing from how your reply was phrased that BASC dont have access to in house or pro bono legal counsel, which is again, naive enough to be bordering on irresponsible.

BASC are the largest pro shooting body in the United Kingdom - that they are providing advice to membership regarding new police powers, goverment guidelines, and potential criminal sanctions without having sought legal advice themselves is somewhat shocking.

Edited March 31, 2020 by PeterHenry
Spelling

[motty]

15 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

Sorry, but that is incredibly naive.

I'm also takeing from how your reply was phrased that BASC dont have access to in house or pro bono legal counsel, which is again, naive enough to be bordering on irresponsible.

BASC are the largest pro shooting body in the United Kingdom - that they are providing advice to membership regarding new police powers, goverment guidelines, and potential criminal sanctions without having sought legal advice themselves is somewhat shocking.

I am not normally a "BASC basher," but I am quickly getting tired of their ineffectiveness.  Every time they're asked something, a wishy washy response seems to follow. 

I am totally unsurprised by this latest statement, which was a complete waste of time. 

[PeterHenry]

7 minutes ago, motty said:

I am not normally a "BASC basher," but I am quickly getting tired of their ineffectiveness.  Every time they're asked something, a wishy washy response seems to follow. 

I am totally unsurprised by this latest statement, which was a complete waste of time. 

Ditto, sadly

[NatureBoy]

12 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

We are currently in unprecedented times.

The lockdown approach appears to be working in the United Kingdom by giving the NHS the breathing space to prepare for the mass uptake that we all hope will not happen.

The lockdown was poorly followed in Italy and Spain, they have the highest case numbers and the highest death rates.

I would love to be out shooting woodpigeons, I have farmers that have drilled their fields contacting me.

I cannot get to any of my permissions without driving. I would normally go with a Mate, but that would mean being in the same vehicle.

I am sitting at home between working shifts, essential shopping, gardening and tidying up.

 

I will comply with the lockdown because I can see the advantage of doing what I am told and massively reducing social contact.

Good post TC!  Where are all these pigeons everyone so desperate to get out and control?😉 Before this most were saying how few there were and how hard it been, Have you spoke to your farmers and how they feel about it? I go for a 3 mile walk every morning across farms i shoot on (without touching anything) at first with folder 410 now just with bino's and camera. Even with all the drilling going on i am not really seeing numbers i would set up for in the area, A lot on buds and nesting now. What i do see increasingly is dog walkers, walkers and joggers. I go out early to avoid them as i know from talking to farmers the number increases during the day. A lot are strangers/family's, lost and wandering  all over the place. Been 2 dog attacks on livestock i have heard of. As much as i would like to be out in isolation while not working, what i have experienced  seen and heard is enough for me not to go at this time. With the disturbance from these folk, drilling and spraying activity, it's enough to keep any pigeons on crops on the move at this time. . .  .  It's worth remembering that a lot of these new people wandering about (many with kids) and probably the panic buyers are stressed (just look at there faces). They have little idea of what goes on in the countryside , let alone coming across a camoed up stranger with a gun. They don't like being challenged either! . . . . .Do the police need any extra hassle at this time? NO!

Just my thoughts on it.    NB

 

[David BASC]

I do not appreciate being called naïve when all I am doing to trying to help, as always when I do my best it soon descends  into people taking pot shots at me / BASC simply because I am giving you the answers but its simply not the answer you want!

We can do not more than keep lobbying on your behalf, and if that's not good enough, well what can I say.

I will leave it there and simply reiterate that updates will be on the BASC web site

Edited March 31, 2020 by David BASC

[PeterHenry]

10 minutes ago, David BASC said:

I do not appreciate being called naïve when all I am doing to trying to help, as always when I do my best it soon descends  into people taking pot shots at me / BASC simply because I am giving you the answers but its simply not the answer you want!

We can do not more than keep lobbying on your behalf, and if that's not good enough, well what can I say.

I will leave it there and simply reiterate that updates will be on the BASC web site

My reply assumed you were acting in an official capacity and therefore relaying BASC's official possition. For the avoidance of doubt,  it is this I am referring to as naive.

In this instance it is plainly clear that more than lobbying can be done - and it can be done in the form of seeking legal advice on the behalf of BASC's membership to afford them some degree of certainty in what is for many a very uncertain position.

 

[Dave-G]

I can't help thinking that making my way alone on foot with a shoulder slung short barrel HMR concealed under a large poncho to the nearest part of a permission less than a mile away for several hours with a pack up and flask is going to be massively better self preservation than being in the company of my partner in the home nearly all day. If I drive to it the mileage would about double to a vehicle entrance which some uniform plod might not like but FLO might consider driving to be more responsible.... 

This is despite the pest control only being crows pulling up divots on deserted golf course greens in this case - but which I've been requested to do while its closed to the private members that would prevent me doing so if it were open with lots of people scaring the crows by their presence. Our agreement is a casual one where I get undocumented membership benefits as payment in kind for pest control which I usually do at night in a 4WD.

My partner is a real old school independent as hell individual who simply is not going to do what I nor the government tell or ask her to do. She used to run wi Hells Angels and really really is one totally uncontrollable woman but i love here and she stood by me big time when I was much less responsible many years ago.

I've never raised a hand to her and I'm not about to do it now. She's normally out all day visiting family so is going stir crazy and doesn't do anything wi computers to relieve boredom but is determined to go out every day for milk, newspaper and a few essentials that we didn't stock pile. She's one of the cleanest people there are - cleaning with a vengeance using copious Dettol wipes.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Dave-G

[motty]

37 minutes ago, NatureBoy said:

Good post TC!  Where are all these pigeons everyone so desperate to get out and control?😉 Before this most were saying how few there were and how hard it been, Have you spoke to your farmers and how they feel about it? I go for a 3 mile walk every morning across farms i shoot on (without touching anything) at first with folder 410 now just with bino's and camera. Even with all the drilling going on i am not really seeing numbers i would set up for in the area, A lot on buds and nesting now. What i do see increasingly is dog walkers, walkers and joggers. I go out early to avoid them as i know from talking to farmers the number increases during the day. A lot are strangers/family's, lost and wandering  all over the place. Been 2 dog attacks on livestock i have heard of. As much as i would like to be out in isolation while not working, what i have experienced  seen and heard is enough for me not to go at this time. With the disturbance from these folk, drilling and spraying activity, it's enough to keep any pigeons on crops on the move at this time. . .  .  It's worth remembering that a lot of these new people wandering about (many with kids) and probably the panic buyers are stressed (just look at there faces). They have little idea of what goes on in the countryside , let alone coming across a camoed up stranger with a gun. They don't like being challenged either! . . . . .Do the police need any extra hassle at this time? NO!

Just my thoughts on it.    NB

 

Where I am, there are lots of pigeons currently on the rape and drillings. I reckon I could shoot plenty in the next few weeks. 

[Walker570]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

We are currently in unprecedented times.

The lockdown approach appears to be working in the United Kingdom by giving the NHS the breathing space to prepare for the mass uptake that we all hope will not happen.

The lockdown was poorly followed in Italy and Spain, they have the highest case numbers and the highest death rates.

I would love to be out shooting woodpigeons, I have farmers that have drilled their fields contacting me.

I cannot get to any of my permissions without driving. I would normally go with a Mate, but that would mean being in the same vehicle.

I am sitting at home between working shifts, essential shopping, gardening and tidying up.

 

I will comply with the lockdown because I can see the advantage of doing what I am told and massively reducing social contact.

100%

[grahamch]

I am really struggling to understand the mind set of some folk on the forum.

We are in the middle of a national health crisis which is killing significant number of people and all some seem to care about is their lack of ability to go and shoot a few pigeons. 

Does it really matter?

It's only pigeon shooting at the end of the day when NHS staff maybe face catching something in the line of their work that could potentially kill them.

But then again there will always be a small minded and selfish minority who think they know best. 

 

[Dave-G]

19 minutes ago, grahamch said:

I am really struggling to understand the mind set of some folk on the forum.

We are in the middle of a national health crisis which is killing significant number of people and all some seem to care about is their lack of ability to go and shoot a few pigeons. 

Does it really matter?

It's only pigeon shooting at the end of the day when NHS staff maybe face catching something in the line of their work that could potentially kill them.

But then again there will always be a small minded and selfish minority who think they know best. 

 

Not being rude but most shooters are in fact quite sensible people even if they see things differently than those dishing out or complying with blanket rules that can sometimes be bettered.

I rather suspect its more a case of those who can finding any reason to be much further apart from ANYONE that could not be done at home doing something even vaguely useful, and we don't all shoot pigeons.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Dave-G

[motty]

25 minutes ago, grahamch said:

I am really struggling to understand the mind set of some folk on the forum.

We are in the middle of a national health crisis which is killing significant number of people and all some seem to care about is their lack of ability to go and shoot a few pigeons. 

Does it really matter?

It's only pigeon shooting at the end of the day when NHS staff maybe face catching something in the line of their work that could potentially kill them.

But then again there will always be a small minded and selfish minority who think they know best. 

 

This is nothing to do with being selfish. 

I could potentially be at risk while at work, which I have had to continue to do.

My argument is based on the logic that I am less likely to catch or spread the virus whilst out in the field. If crop protection is necessary, then it is necessary, regardless of circumstances. If we don't need to do it now, there is little argument for us to do it at any time. 

Edit - check out Nigel Farage's take on the whole lockdown situation (on youtube). Its quite interesting. 

Edited March 31, 2020 by motty

[clangerman]

i passed a shopping centre this morning packed no social distancing farmer called me to shoot some peas just been for a look windows up of coarse field is right outside his living room window so I think it’s a case of having to go 

[NatureBoy]

3 minutes ago, motty said:

Where I am, there are lots of pigeons currently on the rape and drillings. I reckon I could shoot plenty in the next few weeks. 

So that's where they are! You could but will you Motty? Great trat your area always hold so many. What your farmers thoughs and that of the police your way? Law were stretched here before this just with call outs genuine or false alarm to  gangs with long dogs on the hares and lately deer. Heard it can be same your way?   farmers/shoots  my way still slashing covers in few strips at a time for wild birds. Pigeons are filling up with maze on them first thing then sitting up till they feed again late afternoon or nesting.

I know most of my farmers well and do jobs for some. Most are connected and have contacts at rural constabulary unit through Farm Watch etc. I am out most weeks, i and my truck are known, we are part of the eyes and ears in the countryside. If they were to call me and say they got pest control problem and would back me if any hassle i would assess situation/precautions/safety and help them any way I could. If both not think safe, Don't! Simple! . . . . . .As i am self employed (Decorator/ Property Management) i could even bill them to cover us? 😉 Shooting pigeon/crop protection or removing a jackdaws nest from chimney? Whats the difference? Are they both classed as essential?

Did the same during GL Fiasco. Only people challenged me then and some aggressive about it were other shooters! Told them i had read/knew the GL, had they and was happy to shoot/complying with it with farmers/keepers backing. 

[clangerman]

this is also the farmers time of greatest need he keeps us around for drilling time it’s not like anyone is shooting stubble why give us permission if we won’t show up when asked 

[Dave-G]

1 hour ago, grahamch said:

But then again there will always be a small minded and selfish minority who think they know best. 

 

Are you a Packham supporter by any chance?  He's small minded and selfish who thinks he knows better than shooters who are mostly more mature than him.

Sorry to burst any bubbles but being alone in a field for several hours is a much much better precaution than sitting on the sofa next to your family all day or taking a walk round the block passing anyone who may have just coughed.

Only the easily manipulated who can't think for themselves could feel that a person already deemed sensible by the chief of police using a gun while hiding in the field to render it more meaningful pronounces it more selfish or dangerous.

The stay at home rules are a catch all soundbite designed to stop umpteen people mingling in parks, shops, footpaths, other peoples houses etc. Politicians and police commissioners like sound bites. 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Dave-G

[NatureBoy]

End of the day a few weeks out from shooting for the common good at this time ant a biggie! Is it?   393 dead today!     NB

[clangerman]

5 minutes ago, NatureBoy said:

End of the day a few weeks out from shooting for the common good at this time ant a biggie! Is it?   393 dead today!     NB

a few weeks? trust me you WONT be shooting stubble this year 

[Dave-G]

15 minutes ago, NatureBoy said:

End of the day a few weeks out from shooting for the common good at this time ant a biggie! Is it?   393 dead today!     NB

You are quite correct-  but would being in a field for a few hours be agreeable if that person wasn't carrying a gun?

Some of us are being asked to carry out pest control that is important to the person wanting it done who might get someone else, perhaps closer to him to take over the duties - and lose the permission - and maybe his reason for holding firearms too.

For many of us its a sport, a duty to the landowner and a reason to possess firearms - an aspect shooting orgs seem to be missing..

Edited March 31, 2020 by Dave-G

[marsh man]

7 minutes ago, clangerman said:

this is also the farmers time of greatest need he keeps us around for drilling time it’s not like anyone is shooting stubble why give us permission if we won’t show up when asked 

I have been pigeon shooting for a good number of years and I have yet to hear any farmer losing his crop because pigeons on his drilling's , even less nowadays with the drill being air pressed and very efficient .

Like one of the other posters I would like to know where these hoards of pigeons are , most of our spring grain drilling is done now and before the lockdown there were no signs of these so called large numbers that were destroying crops within a day or two of the crop being put in the ground .

On this forum ( I am not bothered about face book and other forums ) the most consistent poster of big bags of pigeons and a man with a fast amount of experience is P C ( Pigeon Controler ) , if you follow his posts like I do you would have read where January and February were the worst months he have had shooting Pigeons for as long as he can remember and I believe he have been shooting for 25 + years , so where were they when he was out looking not only local as many a time he cover 100+ miles.

Traditionally we are coming up for the pigeon shooter quietest time of the year ( apart from the game season ) , apart from our Peas and Sugar Beet everything else what you would expect to shoot pigeons on is already in the ground and now the Pigeons start spending time in the woods eating the fresh buds  , going by other years we don't get that many till the Peas are well out of the ground which is well into May.

So I, along with a number of like minded members will follow what we need to do to stop , or at least try and slow this terrible decease down to give the N H S a chance to get on top of it , if they don't the undertakers will be needing many recruits as well as our health service

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

You are quite correct-  but would being in a field for a few hours be agreeable if that person wasn't carrying a gun?

Some of us are being asked to carry out pest control that is important to the person wanting it done who might get someone else, perhaps closer to him to take over the duties - and lose the permission - and maybe his reason for holding firearms too.

For many of us its a sport, a duty to the landowner and a reason to posses.

In that case the person closer to the farmer would have made less of a journey and would be ahead of you in the essential stakes!