How much are we being told lies about!!

[Mice!]

57 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Im no socialist and certainly no Communist

 

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

can assure you I'm far from a socialist

 

47 minutes ago, JDog said:

12gauge82

All of your posts, no matter what thread they are on, are all on the same theme of disliking Royalty and those who have made something of their lives by hard work and determination and who may have accumulated wealth along the way and at the same time shouting...' what about the workers?'

If that is not Socialism I don't know what is.

 

Your not the only one thinking it Jdog, its always mean bosses or those pesky Royalty getting tested and being spread around the country. 

If you gave "the workers " a large chunk of money to even things up after the revolution most would simply waste it, look at south Africa,  take back the farms, take back the land, how are they doing now?

All the talk of things needing to change won't happen because without those who set up the big companies there wouldn't be any small companies supporting them.

[millrace]

22 minutes ago, JDog said:

I wish you would. Your posts are somewhat repetitive.

If you dont like what I post your free to not read it,,go elsewhere,,,post on another topic where it's less repetitive.....

[Raja Clavata]

41 minutes ago, millrace said:

So China has just reported its highest jump in infections for weeks 108 almost all in people returning to the country,,,,for those that say these arrivals have no affect and make little difference I rest my case!!..

As far as I'm aware nobody said they have no affect but yes, given the horse has already bolted in the UK, they make little difference. You quoted something like 2000 people arriving infected and that was blown out of the water.

When the time comes such that we have the thing much more under control here and things get back to some resemblance of normal, whatever that may mean in the future, then it would make sense to reassess current policies. The ability to test on a much wider scale is one of the prerequisites though because mass quarantine on arrival is not practical.

Right now though you are so far off the mark, not only are you barking up the wrong tree, you're in the wrong forest.

[ClemFandango]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Im no socialist and certainly no Communist. Million was plucked out of thin air, far bigger brains than me would need to work a figure out, but your right, some on here would fall into a loosing bracket, maybe I'd be one, but rich is a relative term, the multi millionaire who hangs around with billionaires probably doesn't see themselves as rich.

Answer me this, why should the working masses solely pay for this mess, yet again?

Firstly. Define the "working masses" and then tell me how they are paying for "this mess" to any greater degree than anyone else. 

[12gauge82]

Well it looks like I've touched a nerve with a few on here, it's not hard to work out which people on PW are the ones who would be affected by a fairer system for paying for this mess than just robbing the workers again

[Raja Clavata]

14 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Well it looks like I've touched a nerve with a few on here, it's not hard to work out which people on PW are the ones who would be affected by a fairer system for paying for this mess than just robbing the workers again

Dunno about a nerve but you might have caught my funny bone. What you described conceptually, without any kind of detail or description of practicality, was unfair in the extreme and exhibiting bias of epic proportions.

 

[ClemFandango]

26 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Well it looks like I've touched a nerve with a few on here, it's not hard to work out which people on PW are the ones who would be affected by a fairer system for paying for this mess than just robbing the workers again

I'm just trying to understand what you mean? Who are "the workers?" People that go to work in general? People below a certain income? People above a certain income? 

What about people on benefits? Do they get a share? 

How are "the workers" currently paying for this? Through taxes presumably? 

 

 

 

[12gauge82]

And still nobody has answered my question, why should the vast number of average, working class people foot the bill for this mess yet again, the same as they did last time, while huge corporations carry on as normal, filtering money off shore and paying next to no tax and large company bosses profit from it?

1 minute ago, ClemFandango said:

I'm just trying to understand what you mean? Who are "the workers?" People that go to work in general? People below a certain income? People above a certain income? 

What about people on benefits? Do they get a share? 

How are "the workers" currently paying for this? Through taxes presumably? 

 

 

 

You know full well what an average worker is in this country. If you don't I can't help you.

[henry d]

1 hour ago, ClemFandango said:

Firstly. Define the "working masses" and then tell me how they are paying for "this mess" to any greater degree than anyone else. 

[panoma1]

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

And still nobody has answered my question, why should the vast number of average, working class people foot the bill for this mess yet again, the same as they did last time, while huge corporations carry on as normal, filtering money off shore and paying next to no tax and large company bosses profit from it?

Surely that is a question you should address to both the government (and all past governments of whatever flavour) and the “huge corporations and large company bosses” to which you refer?

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

And still nobody has answered my question, why should the vast number of average, working class people foot the bill for this mess yet again, the same as they did last time, while huge corporations carry on as normal, filtering money off shore and paying next to no tax and large company bosses profit from it?

Who in your mind created this mess? Would you like help drafting an invoice to China on behalf of the "people"?

[ClemFandango]

14 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

And still nobody has answered my question, why should the vast number of average, working class people foot the bill for this mess yet again, the same as they did last time, while huge corporations carry on as normal, filtering money off shore and paying next to no tax and large company bosses profit from it?

You know full well what an average worker is in this country. If you don't I can't help you.

I'm a tree surgeon. I earn a little over 30k a year. Am I an average worker? 

 

 

[12gauge82]

7 minutes ago, ClemFandango said:

I'm a tree surgeon. I earn a little over 30k a year. Am I an average worker? 

 

 

If you genuinely don't know the answer to that, there's very little point in continuing this discussion with you.

17 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Surely that is a question you should address to both the government (and all past governments of whatever flavour) and the “huge corporations and large company bosses” to which you refer?

That's half the problem, governments aren't really in control of the situation that is manifesting itself, it is such a (purposely) complex subject, most people don't have the first clue of what is going on.

[udderlyoffroad]

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

If you genuinely don't know the answer to that,

Nobody does, you've proposed a system so vague we can't work out which side of the divide we would fall on.

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Nobody does, you've proposed a system so vague we can't work out which side of the divide we would fall on.

I've proposed no system at all, I'm simply saying that I believe it would be totally wrong to make the same people, who make up the vast majority of the country pay for a potential economic crash yet again, while the same privileged few prosper from the situation again.

[Old farrier]

11 minutes ago, ClemFandango said:

I'm a tree surgeon. I earn a little over 30k a year. Am I an average worker? 

 

 

Sorry don’t think money is anything to do with the average worker 

I’m assuming you studied and got qualifications for your job that’ll make you above average 
 

a average worker goes into a job that requires no training and that anyone could do 

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, JDog said:

12gauge82

All of your posts, no matter what thread they are on, are all on the same theme of disliking Royalty and those who have made something of their lives by hard work and determination and who may have accumulated wealth along the way and at the same time shouting...' what about the workers?'

If that is not Socialism I don't know what is.

 

I would disagree, but if you don't like my posts, don't read them, or block me if it offends you that badly 👍

[ClemFandango]

5 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Sorry don’t think money is anything to do with the average worker 

I’m assuming you studied and got qualifications for your job that’ll make you above average 
 

a average worker goes into a job that requires no training and that anyone could do 

 

11 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

If you genuinely don't know the answer to that, there's very little point in continuing this discussion with you.

That's half the problem, governments aren't really in control of the situation that is manifesting itself, it is such a (purposely) complex subject, most people don't have the first clue of what is going on.

That's fair enough. 

I am just trying to understand what you are saying.

I did get qualified to do this job but I know guys who have very little if any qualifications and have done their training on the job. 

They earn a similar wage to me. Does that make them average workers and me above average then? Or are we all above average? 

Lots of people with no qualifications earning a hell of a lot more than me. Didn't Richard Branson drop out of school at 16. Does that make him an average worker? 

Just out me out of my misery and define what you mean by "average worker." Then maybe you can help me understand how they are paying for this mess as you put it  

Edited April 13, 2020 by ClemFandango

[12gauge82]

6 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

 

 

a average worker goes into a job that requires no training and that anyone could do 

That's part of the systems failure, jobs set up which turn people into robots, large companies rely on pre trained migrant labour, so they don't need to pay to offer apprenticeships and decent jobs, with livable wages.

But of course a tree surgeon is part of the working class

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

I've proposed no system at all, I'm simply saying that I believe it would be totally wrong to make the same people, who make up the vast majority of the country pay for a potential economic crash yet again, while the same privileged few prosper from the situation again.

TBH earlier you sounded like some modern day kind of Robin Hood - in a nutshell, steal from the rich and give to the poor. What you outline above is much fairer but would still need to fill the details in. Regarding large corporations not paying tax on profits, whilst it sucks they are employing UK citizens and contributing to the economy through PAYE, NI etc. There is a balance to ensure we don't send them and their operations completely off-shore. 

[12gauge82]

3 minutes ago, ClemFandango said:

 

That's fair enough. 

I am just trying to understand what you are saying.

I did get qualified to do this job but I know guys who have very little if any qualifications and have done their training on the job. 

They earn a similar wage to me. Does that make them average workers and me above average then? Or are we all above average? 

Lots of people with no qualifications earning a hell of a lot more than me. Didn't Richard Branson drop out of school at 16. Does that make him an average worker? 

Just out me out of my misery and define what you mean by "average worker." Then maybe you can help me understand how they are paying for this mess as you put it  

The problem is being caused by CEOs of huge corporations, who are paying no tax, offer terrible employment and pay no tax, while literally piling money up off shore through shell company's, the amounts of which would make your eyes water.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

That's part of the systems failure, jobs set up which turn people into robots, large companies rely on pre trained migrant labour, so they don't need to pay to offer apprenticeships and decent jobs, with livable wages.

Like nursing then?

[12gauge82]

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

TBH earlier you sounded like some modern day kind of Robin Hood - in a nutshell, steal from the rich and give to the poor. What you outline above is much fairer but would still need to fill the details in. Regarding large corporations not paying tax on profits, whilst it sucks they are employing UK citizens and contributing to the economy through PAYE, NI etc. There is a balance to ensure we don't send them and their operations completely off-shore. 

Bang on the money and it's what would happen if one government alone tried to tackle it, hence why governments aren't in control anymore.

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

Like nursing then?

🙈😂 No, not like nursing

Nursing is working for the government who's sole purpose isn't to make money, it is providing a service

[ClemFandango]

2 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

The problem is being caused by CEOs of huge corporations, who are paying no tax, offer terrible employment and pay no tax, while literally piling money up off shore through shell company's, the amounts of which would make your eyes 

So do you think it is realistic to expect that we could take the wealth they have amassed for redistribution? They have already taken it offshore? 

[AVB]

2 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

The problem is being caused by CEOs of huge corporations, who are paying no tax, offer terrible employment and pay no tax, while literally piling money up off shore through shell company's, the amounts of which would make your eyes water.

Who are these people? 

"UK increasingly reliant on super rich for tax income" say the Institute of Fiscal Studies - https://www.icaew.com/technical/tax/personal-tax/income-tax/income-tax-articles/uk-increasingly-reliant-on-super-rich-for-tax-income

Top UK Tax payers (personal not Corporation Tax) 

1. Stephen Rubin and family, £181.6m. Majority stakeholder in JD Sports and owner of Pentland Group.

2. Denise, John and Peter Coates, £156m. Owners of gambling company Bet365. 

3. Sir James Dyson and family, £127.8m. Vacuum cleaner and household appliance company.

4. Bruno Schroder and family, £114.3m. Investment management company.

5. Sir Jim Ratcliffe, £110.5m. Owner of Ineos chemicals company - No 1 on Sunday Times Rich List 2018.

6. The Weston family, £76m. Owners of brands including Selfridges, Primark, Ryvita, Silver Spoon, Ovaltine and Twinings - No 9 on Sunday Times Rich List 2018.

7. Sir Chris Hohn, £64.8m. Manager of TCI hedge fund.

8. Sir Peter Wood, £53.7m. Founder of esure insurance company.

9. James Benamor, £52.2m. Owner of Amigo Loans and Richmond Group moneylenders.

10. Baroness Howard de Walden and family, £44.1m. Property investors.