More tin foil required

[eddoakley]

Have to say that I never thought I would read on here people advocating the removal of freedom of speech. 

Censor someone in case someone else reacts to their views and (in this case) commits criminal damage.

Forget the fact that most of us consider his views stupid, if he is not allowed to express them then who decides who is allowed to say what?

Edd

Edited April 14, 2020 by eddoakley

[12gauge82]

28 minutes ago, grrclark said:

I know there has been a number of posts back and forth on this, but easier to quote the first one first.

I confess I really struggle with this issue, like you I ardently believe that as soon as we start to censor people or drive a particular social narrative that we head down an increasingly dark path, however this is also the very nature of society and a great deal of where we end up is as a result of the prevailing public conscience.  We become self censoring by group think.

As an example the first time I worked in Denmark was in 1997, I was 25 at the time and one of the local girls was the same age.  She talked about how her generation had started to climb down from the very liberal social attitudes of her parents.  As a result the red light district of Copenhagen was much much lower key than even Soho let alone Amsterdam or Hamburg, her parents saw that as worryingly relinquishing hard won freedoms from the 50s and 60s, but she saw it as progress.

A similar parallel would be the clamour of the press and political class to suppress the likes of the BNP.  While i find the people in that organisation abhorrent, if you try to sweep what they are saying under the carpet then you cannot publicly challenge the views and dismiss them as the poison that they are.  There is a fair argument that the discontent and lack of trust with our mainstream politicians stems from this behaviour to try to suppress challenging voices rather than meet them head on.

Same thing with people being stupid in the extreme with the 5g conspiracies, if you try to hush the voices entirely then they go underground and chatter away there and secretly gather momentum such that 20 cell towers were vandalised this weekend alone.  Let the people talk their nonsense, but there absolutely has to be a very vocal and forceful challenge to out the nutters as such an be unrelenting in that.  Eamon Holmes needs to be told on TV he is knob and shown to be that by someone breaking his argument down.

None of this "it's an opinion and everyone is entitled to that and we must respect that for fear of offending".  Stupid is stupid and needs to be called out as that, but more importantly it must be demonstrated as that.

Regrettably there is no shortage of stupid and there are far too many unthinking wallopers who latch onto a half baked idea, well they need to be called out as that too.  There is none so dangerous as an idiot who doesn't appreciate they are an idiot, i.e. President Trump.

Very well written post that. I fully agree with everything you say, especially about society policing itself to a degree, there should be free speech and equally, a right to reply.

[chrisjpainter]

16 minutes ago, eddoakley said:

Have to say that I never thought I would read on here people advocating the removal of freedom of speech. 

Censor someone in case someone else reacts to their views and (in this case) commits criminal damage.

Forget the fact that most of us consider his views stupid, if he is not allowed to express them then who decides who is allowed to say what?

Edd

This one just vexes me because it's illogical and bone-headed. 

The one that actually upsets me is anti-vaxxers because it's killing children. I'm fine with freedom of speech, but we also have hate speech laws that prohibit incitement to violence and so forth. But we have nothing that protects children from their parents' decisions despite those decisions actively endangering their own children and then then encouraging other parents to put their kids into harm's way. Parents should be allowed to bring their kids however they want, and teach them pretty much whatever they believe - but not when their kids and other kids are being physically endangered from it.

[Jaymo]

1 hour ago, 39TDS said:

I have said it before that of all the various forums I use, the members on here are the ones I consider least appropriate to own a gun.

It’s ok, I don’t own any - my wife knows they all belong to some bloke called “Dave” and they just so happen to be kept at our house, except those times I take them out to him ( he’s not allowed to visit you see) 

[Jim Neal]

59 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said:

The one that actually upsets me is anti-vaxxers because it's killing children. I'm fine with freedom of speech, but we also have hate speech laws that prohibit incitement to violence and so forth. But we have nothing that protects children from their parents' decisions despite those decisions actively endangering their own children and then then encouraging other parents to put their kids into harm's way. Parents should be allowed to bring their kids however they want, and teach them pretty much whatever they believe - but not when their kids and other kids are being physically endangered from it.

Problem is, the alternative is... what?  Forced vaccinations?  At gun point?  Parents are responsible for what happens to their children until the child reaches an age when they are deemed to be mature enough to make decisions for themselves.

I've got a son approaching 4  years old (if he makes it).  We have thus far consented to the Government's advised programme of vaccinations including MMR.  For some time now he has been displaying signs of Autism and ADHD.

Who do I sue?

2 sides to every coin.

[AVB]

We took the ‘middle class’ option regarding vaccinations for our children and paid for separate jabs. Just wasn’t 100% certain about MMR and as there was an alternative we took it. If there had not been an alternative we would have taken the chance on MMR. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by AVB

[chrisjpainter]

1 hour ago, Jim Neal said:

Problem is, the alternative is... what?  Forced vaccinations?  At gun point?  Parents are responsible for what happens to their children until the child reaches an age when they are deemed to be mature enough to make decisions for themselves.

I've got a son approaching 4  years old (if he makes it).  We have thus far consented to the Government's advised programme of vaccinations including MMR.  For some time now he has been displaying signs of Autism and ADHD.

Who do I sue?

2 sides to every coin.

No. Because autism's got nothing to do with vaccines. 

[chrisjpainter]

It's also not just their kid though. If they're unprotected and it's only their child that suffers, it seems fine. But that's not the case. A non vaccinated child who gets, say measles, can then pass it on to a whole host of people: infants too young to have the vaccination, people with compromised immune systems, the tiny minority for whom they don't work, those who cannot have jabs because of allergies (again, small minority and ever shrinking after egg proteins became no longer necessary). For those groups, an unimmunised is a potential ticking time bomb. That is where the parents' choices directly impact other people and without their complicity. 

The calls to make vaccines a legal requirement only got louder after that idiot Wakefield brought out is claptrap. It's cost the lives of millions across the world. I think there is a lackadaisical attitude towards vaccines because of their success. We don't see children crippled and dying by polio, or ravaged by measles, whooping cough, Hep B etc. so we've forgotten how horrendous they are. As a society, we need to get back to knowing the horrors of these diseases, so we appreciate the vaccines.

Oh and we could do with trusting experts more, especially when it comes to the health of our children

Edited April 15, 2020 by chrisjpainter

[grrclark]

Too many posts to quote Chris, but some excellent points that you are raising, to my mind at least.

Most pertinent of which is the clamour for equality, which quite frankly is a philosophical construction to suit an argument as much as "fariness" is.  We are not all equal and there is no universal right to fairness of things that happen.  That differs from equity of approach, i.e. in the UK everyone has the right of an education, of healthcare, of protection under the rule of law, etc.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

14 hours ago, 39TDS said:

Whenever I read about witch trials and what people both believed and participated in I have always been puzled about how many can be caught up in such an unbelievable course of actions.

Yet here we are in our technological age of learning and enlightenment setting fire to 5G masts because of the suspicion they have caused a virus.

You would struggle to make this stuff up. People will look back on this with disbelief (or at least I hope they will).

Youtube has become a platform for lunatics to spout their "knowledge" and an army of equally lunatic followers to believe it. Possibly the most educated generation yet, with an incredible amount of science and fact at their disposal and they decide to believe the world is flat and radio waves are causing a virus.

Is it just a coincidence that it is within a decade or so of the mental hospitals getting closed down?

There has always been a small percentage of people unable to think for themselves!

[AVB]

I saw a post the other day along the lines of “I’m going to stop listening to experts on mainstream news channels and get my facts from social media”. The problem is they were serious. 

That’s not to say you can believe everything on the mainstream news media though but I would give it more consideration before I trusted something on FB, Instagram or even PW. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, AVB said:

I saw a post the other day along the lines of “I’m going to stop listening to experts on mainstream news channels and get my facts from social media”. The problem is they were serious. 

That’s not to say you can believe everything on the mainstream news media though but I would give it more consideration before I trusted something on FB, Instagram or even PW. 

It is not just what you listen to, you have to be sensible in what you believe too!

[Raja Clavata]

14 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

You what? 😂😂😂

 

Seriously though, what is being proposed is that we mustn't risk someone speaking against the normal excepted practices, as many great minds have throughout history, sure 99% is going to be by crackpots, but restricting that free speech and thoughts, incase some fool does something stupid, is so damaging towards advancement and freedom, I find it all very concerning. 

Sorry, stepped out of my COVID bunker without my tin hat on and had a bit of a wobble 🙂 

I do get your point. Years ago such people were considered heretics but the difference is these were generally great minds driving enlightenment based on scientific observations, experiments and theories. Today we see far too many people who do not even have a basic understanding of the extent to which they are ignorant spouting stuff that is from the land of unicorns and fairies. Perhaps the best we can hope for is that AI will play a part in blocking the proliferation of clearly incorrect material across social media (or as is already the case in some instances flagging it as unreliable).

[henry d]

Regarding the proliferation of conspiracy theories and outbreaks of dumb***ness.

Raja notes that we had an enlightenment period, before that we had myth and legend. One halted the other, we are now enlightened, to such an extent that we can type in a few words and have answers immediately, no thought process, no requirement at all, the internet told me so. We became dumb and accept the fodder that can be generated by anyone with access to the internet. Add into the mix our own thoughts and personal context and the tendency is to follow the rabbit tail that you like the look of and the answer appears to come from your own work, you are affirmed and self actualised and possibly a little smug. However the lack of critical thinking, of which I am also guilty of, can at times be outstanding. How did we get so dumb*** with so much access to so much knowledge? Mind boggling.

[Raja Clavata]

I think the following cognitive biases go some way in answering your question, not intended to be an exhaustive list:

Tribal Epistemology, Dunning Kruger Effect, Availability Cascade, Confirmation Bias, Backfire Effect, Curse of Knowledge, Empathy Gap, Illusory Truth Effect, Irrational Escalation/Sunk Cost Fallacy, Negativity Bias, Normalcy Bias, Planning Fallacy, Reactance, Semmelweis Reflex, Third-person effect, Parkinson’s Law of Triviality & False Consensus Effect

Everyone of us is affected by these to some extent (on a scale of 0 to 100) I doubt anyone is a 0 or 100 for any of them...

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

I think the following cognitive biases go some way in answering your question, not intended to be an exhaustive list:

Tribal Epistemology, Dunning Kruger Effect, Availability Cascade, Confirmation Bias, Backfire Effect, Curse of Knowledge, Empathy Gap, Illusory Truth Effect, Irrational Escalation/Sunk Cost Fallacy, Negativity Bias, Normalcy Bias, Planning Fallacy, Reactance, Semmelweis Reflex, Third-person effect, Parkinson’s Law of Triviality & False Consensus Effect

Everyone of us is affected by these to some extent (on a scale of 0 to 100) I doubt anyone is a 0 or 100 for any of them...

You clearly have a very good understanding of this subject 👍

[chrisjpainter]

8 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

You clearly have a very good understanding of this subject 👍

Which is, of course, of equal value to someone who knows absolutely nothing about it but can shout VERY LOUDLY! 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, chrisjpainter said:

Which is, of course, of equal value to someone who knows absolutely nothing about it but can shout VERY LOUDLY! 

Agreed 😂

[grrclark]

7 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

I think the following cognitive biases go some way in answering your question, not intended to be an exhaustive list:

Tribal Epistemology, Dunning Kruger Effect, Availability Cascade, Confirmation Bias, Backfire Effect, Curse of Knowledge, Empathy Gap, Illusory Truth Effect, Irrational Escalation/Sunk Cost Fallacy, Negativity Bias, Normalcy Bias, Planning Fallacy, Reactance, Semmelweis Reflex, Third-person effect, Parkinson’s Law of Triviality & False Consensus Effect

Everyone of us is affected by these to some extent (on a scale of 0 to 100) I doubt anyone is a 0 or 100 for any of them...

If anyone claims to be at either 0 or 100 on your scale then they are exhibiting other cognitive bias.

The linked image is a good place to start to look, but not on a smartphone or tablet, needs a big screen. 

[Raja Clavata]

17 minutes ago, grrclark said:

If anyone claims to be at either 0 or 100 on your scale then they are exhibiting other cognitive bias.

The linked image is a good place to start to look, but not on a smartphone or tablet, needs a big screen. 

Thanks for sharing but I can't even see that on my 24" monitor 🙂 May try on the TV later 👍

[henry d]

14 hours ago, grrclark said:

If anyone claims to be at either 0 or 100 on your scale then they are exhibiting other cognitive bias.

The linked image is a good place to start to look, but not on a smartphone or tablet, needs a big screen. 

On my phone ATM but will be useful to run through it, thanks for posting.

[old man]

On 14/04/2020 at 19:25, 39TDS said:

Whenever I read about witch trials and what people both believed and participated in I have always been puzled about how many can be caught up in such an unbelievable course of actions.

Yet here we are in our technological age of learning and enlightenment setting fire to 5G masts because of the suspicion they have caused a virus.

You would struggle to make this stuff up. People will look back on this with disbelief (or at least I hope they will).

Youtube has become a platform for lunatics to spout their "knowledge" and an army of equally lunatic followers to believe it. Possibly the most educated generation yet, with an incredible amount of science and fact at their disposal and they decide to believe the world is flat and radio waves are causing a virus.

Is it just a coincidence that it is within a decade or so of the mental hospitals getting closed down?

That, maybe is not the true story, possibly the feckless or criminal minded just decided it would be a good laugh and an opportunity to get out?