Call me sceptical but !!!

[ClemFandango]

14 minutes ago, Norfolk wildfowler said:

O yes they were. I could see it coming and took preventive measures well  before our government had given it a second thought. I had PPE and in lockdown 2 weeks before the government had even thought about lockdowns. Asleep at the wheel is exactly what they are guilty of. Its their job to spot and act on these things , but they ignored it. If I saw it so should have Boris and co, but then he never was much good at things that affect people. He never even bothered to visit the poor ******* flooded out in the west country. Boris excuse- he did not want to get in the way. An curtsy visit to see what was going on is not getting in the way on the contrary its raseing the profile of the problem. And yes any potential pandemic is very comparable. As for shutting down the aircraft flights, the UK still has not done it and an average of 15,000 a day are still flooding into the country. Ops Boris is still asleep. I am very sorry he caught the virus , but whos fault was that. There were many occasions when he did photo\publicity meetings with Drs and nurses, he did not practice social distancing and shook more hands than you could count. If he had not caught the virus it would have been amazing. Asleep again. 

 

Send your CV in. You'll be PM in no time. 

People are ****** off with lockdown now, how do you think they'd be doing if the whole country lockedown when you did?

How do you think the economy would be doing? 

[AVB]

26 minutes ago, Norfolk wildfowler said:

O yes they were. I could see it coming and took preventive measures well  before our government had given it a second thought. I had PPE and in lockdown 2 weeks before the government had even thought about lockdowns. Asleep at the wheel is exactly what they are guilty of. Its their job to spot and act on these things , but they ignored it. If I saw it so should have Boris and co, but then he never was much good at things that affect people. He never even bothered to visit the poor ******* flooded out in the west country. Boris excuse- he did not want to get in the way. An curtsy visit to see what was going on is not getting in the way on the contrary its raseing the profile of the problem. And yes any potential pandemic is very comparable. As for shutting down the aircraft flights, the UK still has not done it and an average of 15,000 a day are still flooding into the country. Ops Boris is still asleep. I am very sorry he caught the virus , but whos fault was that. There were many occasions when he did photo\publicity meetings with Drs and nurses, he did not practice social distancing and shook more hands than you could count. If he had not caught the virus it would have been amazing. Asleep again. 

 

You only have to think about yourself so if you want to lockdown early or forever then fill your boots. However the Government have to consider the wider population as well as the massive impact on the economy. 
 

fortunately what you or I think doesn’t matter (I think we should be coming out of lockdown now). 

[WalkedUp]

Total test results returned for the 24hrs 9am Sat until 9am Sunday back down to 76,496, however this may be a result of a weekend slowdown. Lots of people have been ill or died and waiting for tests. Bizarrely we are now entitled to tests as my wife is a key worker, none of us are seriously ill however and we are not front line medical staff so it would be ridiculous to use a test that is better employed elsewhere. Let us get back to over the 100,000 tests a day to prove all doubters wrong. This pledge is about commitment to a rate of progression to enable this scale of testing, not a flash in the pan to hit a number for one day. 

Edited May 3, 2020 by WalkedUp

[7daysinaweek]

12 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

There is something that has long been recognised called "Open-air Factor" https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-6701(19)30153-7/fulltext which has been used (perhaps by fortunate accident), but is undoubtedly a fact.  However - when the virus is in 'droplets' such as when exhaled as part of a cough, the actual viral bits are protected within the drop.  I am not sure that the detailed way it works is well understood (UV, free radicals, air movement) - but it seems to cease to work indoors, even in well ventilated buildings and near open windows.

Many modern offices have the 'cassette in the ceiling tiles' type of heating and air conditioning - being a cheap way to have air conditioning in summer and a heat pump based (green ticks in boxes) heating in winter.  They circulate and temperature adjust recycled air and I suspect are very poor for containing all forms of 'bug transmission'.  Before I retired, in our offices we went from individual (or shared between 2) offices with conventional water radiators for heating with opening windows and fans for cooling - to open plan with these cassette based 'air conditioning' systems and sealed windows.  It also allowed a higher number of people per unit of floorspace ........... and led to a very noticeable increase in cold/cough/flu/sinus complaints and illnesses - and also gave trouble with (excessively low) humidity causing electrostatic problems.

I think these systems and the high number of people per unit area of modern open plan offices will be a major problem with safe distances as we 'unlock' as will public transport, where again spacing cannot be maintained without massive capacity reduction.

Hi John

UV light kills pathogens by breaking down their DNA. Uv light therapy is still used in some areas of wound therapy for reducing localized bio-burden in infected wounds and is seen as a adjunct in some areas of chronic wound management. It also has some benefits in stimulating the immune system.

The "open air factor" you speak of is a well documented and has been advocated as part of infection control measures for low level clinical environments such as wards, consultation rooms, treatment rooms etc for many years. The ability to discharge aerosolsised particles from a enclosed space is dependent on what is known as the Air changes per hour (ACH), the greater the changes per hour the sooner the particles are cleared. Natural (windows open) and mechanical ventilation are both effective. The current world health authority (WHO) guidance for standard infection control and Covid 19 require a minimum of 6 air changes per hour. A minimum of 20 minutes is estimated to equate at around 2 air changes. This is for entering the room without a ffpe3 respirator mask.

In my area of work we are fortunate to have both mechanical extraction and natural window ventilation and combined with topical disinfection measures the Covid assessment rooms are put back into use after 30 minutes post topical decontamination with use of facial ffpe3 respirator mask.       

Rhinoviruses are the main cause of acute poly microbial upper respiratory tract infections, colds being the most common, as you say there are lots of Rhinovirus types and so far treatments for effective eradication of these maladies is still wanting. Treatment is mostly  over the counter (otc) preparations to reduce rhinnitic immune response which gives the feeling of the congestion and facial discomfort. Rhinoviruses are not treated with antibiotics as they are a virus and self limiting. Sinusitis is usually self limiting with 10-15 days from causes of rhino sinusitis pathogens, less common presentations can become problematic from a resulting bacterial sinusitis,usually occurring from a streptococcal bacterial infection and may require antibiotic therapy.

People are affected differently by different pathogens for many reasons, health protection history (vaccines or lack of) immune response to typical environmental allergens resulting in asthma , rhinnitis and eczema to name a few this is what is known as Atopy. Anatomy and physiology, comorbid conditions,chemical exposure, smoking etc. The list goes on.

atb

7diaw

 

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by 7daysinaweek

[Norfolk wildfowler]

4 hours ago, ClemFandango said:

Send your CV in. You'll be PM in no time. 

People are ****** off with lockdown now, how do you think they'd be doing if the whole country lockedown when you did?

How do you think the economy would be doing? 

You really do not get it. Anyone with any intelligence knew what was coming just watch the news . Sp why did the government ignore what they knew what was coming. Probably they hoped it would blow over and them they would save money. If the government had acted when they knew the lock down would have been far more effective because the virus would be be established. As for being PM , Boris gets paid to deal and minimise the effects of things like this virus. In this he has failed. Where is a real leader when you want one. I never though I would say this , but where are you Maggie.

[Norfolk wildfowler]

On 02/05/2020 at 18:51, lancer425 said:

The government did sign up for european bulk buy . It had up to last week not thrown up a single iten of PPE. It never happened. We could have signed up with The Aztecs and got as much PPE.gear as the euro signing gave us.

Not according to Sky news, C4 news, CBS news  ITV news , Radio 4 news and the BBC news plus a number of other current affairs programs.  3 tines the EU asked if we wanted to join their PPE bulk buying program . 3 times the UK government said no or did not bother to reply. Where did you get your info from because its clearly wrong. We did have an arrangement to get some with Germany , but that was later and the Germans by them needed ourselves. We also had PPE come from the USA.

 

Just  to add it took seconds me to find this quote from the Guardian online 

UK missed three chances to join EU scheme to bulk-buy PPE

Exclusive: Britain did not take part in €1.5bn order for kit to protect against Covid-19 despite shortages in NHS

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Norfolk wildfowler

[Gordon R]

Quote

Where is a real leader when you want one.

Apparently living in Norfolk, working in the medical field, whilst dabbling in politics.

[Dave-G]

7 minutes ago, Norfolk wildfowler said:

Not according to Sky news, C4 news, CBS news  ITV news , Radio 4 news and the BBC news plus a number of other current affairs programs.  3 tines the EU asked if we wanted to join their PPE bulk buying program . 3 times the UK government said no or did not bother to reply. Where did you get your info from because its clearly wrong.

 

Hmm... I wouldn't be surprised if EU manipulated the package price so UK would foot a larger than fair proportion of the bill - and we'd likely already been assured it was en-rout to us but got screwed. Of course MSM makes a better story keeping that part out.

[Norfolk wildfowler]

4 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Apparently living in Norfolk, working in the medical field, whilst dabbling in politics.

You got one right. But I follow the news on all channels and from abroad.

 

[Gordon R]

Boris acted upon medical advice. Would you have ignored that medical advice in favour of watching the news? Clueless.

 

[lancer425]

5 hours ago, Norfolk wildfowler said:

Not according to Sky news, C4 news, CBS news  ITV news , Radio 4 news and the BBC news plus a number of other current affairs programs.  3 tines the EU asked if we wanted to join their PPE bulk buying program . 3 times the UK government said no or did not bother to reply. Where did you get your info from because its clearly wrong. We did have an arrangement to get some with Germany , but that was later and the Germans by them needed ourselves. We also had PPE come from the USA.

 

Just  to add it took seconds me to find this quote from the Guardian online 

UK missed three chances to join EU scheme to bulk-buy PPE

Exclusive: Britain did not take part in €1.5bn order for kit to protect against Covid-19 despite shortages in NHS

 

I can only go on what i KNOW as in HEARD  straight from the Horses moth as such.

In this video from around 135 The minister clearly states we were signed up for EU PPE bulk buy. But as Yet had not received ANY from that Route / Agreement.

  I know The media have been babbling on about this for weeks. But it would Apear to be Misinformation on their part.  We Were in it, but its not happened.

 

Its from about 1.35 on this video.

 

[JohnfromUK]

6 hours ago, 7daysinaweek said:

Hi John

UV light kills pathogens by breaking down their DNA. Uv light therapy is still used ..........

Many thanks for your detailed and comprehensive reply. 

I have a feeling that many 'modern' office systems - especially those that have been retrofitted during refurbishment to meet energy conservation targets have very limited 'air changes per hour' because they recirculate (whilst heating or cooling as needed).  Exchange of 'internal' air with fresh external air has been greatly reduced to avoid having to heat/cool it.

[WalkedUp]

I would say the opposite, modern offices and even retrofits still have to comply with Part F and are more likely to have consistently adequate ventilation than their predecessors which relied upon building fabric leakage, open fires and openable windows for ventilation. However in hospital wards openable windows have been proven to decrease recovery time, and decrease the levels of harmful bacteria due to allowing non-harmful bacteria to colonise surfaces between sterilisation. I will look for an accredited source and post. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4080534/

Edited May 4, 2020 by WalkedUp

[WalkedUp]

The above relates to biome and the below relates to daylight and view. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6287302/

[Yellow Bear]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I have a feeling that many 'modern' office systems - especially those that have been retrofitted during refurbishment to meet energy conservation targets have very limited 'air changes per hour' because they recirculate (whilst heating or cooling as needed).  Exchange of 'internal' air with fresh external air has been greatly reduced to avoid having to heat/cool it.

This has been the case for at least the last 10 years and even before that it was unusual to find ACRs of above 3 apart from toilets and specialist area, particularly operating theatres which have particular air flow patterns.

3 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

I would say the opposite, modern offices and even retrofits still have to comply with Part F and are more likely to have consistently adequate ventilation than their predecessors which relied upon building fabric leakage, open fires and openable windows for ventilation. However in hospital wards openable windows have been proven to decrease recovery time, and decrease the levels of harmful bacteria due to allowing non-harmful bacteria to colonise surfaces between sterilisation. I will look for an accredited source and post. 

This problem is exacerbated by the requirement to have an opening of no more than 100 mm

[WalkedUp]

Only if said opening is below 800mm above FFL

Below 800mm the window forms a balustrade to prevent falling in accordance with Part K. 

[Yellow Bear]

1 minute ago, WalkedUp said:

Only if said opening is below 800mm above FFL

True, however since sash windows are (or were before I retired) rarely used some part of the window was invariably below the 800 mm mark 

[WalkedUp]

Air conditioning is rarely linked to ventilation and is rather a cheap way to heat or cool the building without losing floor space to radiators etc. High end offices do not use AC but chilled beams and underfloor heating. Ventilation is generally ducted as the depth of plan of modern offices negates the application of cross ventilation through openable windows. Regardless of air temperature most people (especially women with more exposed skin) will feel uncomfortable in a draught, be that from an open window, or badly installed ventilation duct (rare), or badly installed AC cassette (very common). 

[Yellow Bear]

2 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

Regardless of air temperature most people (especially women with more exposed skin) will feel uncomfortable in a draught, be that from an open window, or badly installed ventilation duct (rare), or badly installed AC cassette (very common). 

Tell me about it - I spent an awful amount of time over my 40+ years in the industry dealing with just these problems.  (and you forgot induction units {always} )

[WalkedUp]

1 minute ago, Yellow Bear said:

True, however since sash windows are (or were before I retired) rarely used some part of the window was invariably below the 800 mm mark 

Which is great for ventilation as it has a small opening at the top and bottom which allows great circulation. My last house was a Georgian convent I converted and we had floor to ceiling sash windows. I fitted push in restrictors to allow the windows to open but be restricted to less than 100mm. 
 

Look at New York City:

Free choice on regulation, Eric Clapton’s four year old son fell 53 storeys to his death after  leaning against a window that had been opened. 

British Building Regulations are fantastic. If anyone wants to look at blame for Grenfell please research Cameron’s bonfire of red tape. So sad, so avoidable 😔

I’ll save you all the time... 2014

 

https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/cameron-claims-victory-in-bonfire-of-the-building-regulations/8658068.article

[JohnfromUK]

36 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

I would say the opposite, modern offices and even retrofits

I can only speak from personal experience of a (very) limited number of offices where A/C has been retrofitted by 'cassette' type systems in false ceilings.  They have no inbuilt 'air change' facility.  The way in which they are subsequently used is of course not the A/C manufacturer's or installer's responsibility, and that may be where the problem lies.

I can only say that I suspect that as offices come back to work, this 'recirculated air' cannot be a good thing - and opening windows to get a healthy through flow of air (even if the opening is limited) is going to be needed.

[WalkedUp]

It is difficult because if these works have been done by cowboys without Building Regulation approval then it is unseen and impossible to regulate. We are at the upper end of the market so generally see high levels of compliance. There definitely is some deep rooted misunderstanding in the layman between air-conditioning (temperature control) and air-supply (ventilation). 

Edited May 4, 2020 by WalkedUp

[Yellow Bear]

10 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

It is difficult because if these works have been done by cowboys without Building Regulation approval then it is unseen and impossible to regulate. We are at the upper end of the market so generally see high levels of compliance. There definitely is some deep rooted misunderstanding in the layman between air-conditioning (temperature control) and air-supply (ventilation). 

👍

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, WalkedUp said:

It is difficult because if these works have been done by cowboys without Building Regulation approval then it is unseen and impossible to regulate. We are at the upper end of the market so generally see high levels of compliance. There definitely is some deep rooted misunderstanding in the layman between air-conditioning (temperature control) and air-supply (ventilation). 

You may well be right on 'cowboys'; I can only say that I think (based on my limited experience) that ventilation is much less good than it should be in many office environments. 

I will add that I have been in a few very modern buildings - and some have had very good 'apparent air quality' (to the visitor) from fully integrated systems (which no doubt have proper ventilation as well as heating and cooling) and have been very pleasant to work in, whereas I have usually found that the (hugely popular in older offices) cassette systems are fitted with no obvious means of ventilation and appear to simply heat or cool recirculated air.  Unless the windows are opened (which may have noise, traffic fumes, safety issues) then there is a problem.

[hodge911]

Who would have thought that !!

The number has fallen below the governments "manipulated"Target number of the last day of the month they predicted that 1000k tests a day would be carried out ...... 

Yes the government has done something's positively but why o why all the manipulation and out right lies ?..

Possibly to keep the general public in line but would the truth not be better .

I.M.H.O  it would ...... & yes I know any party in power would lie to us THAT'S WHAT POLITICIANS DO

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by hodge911