PCP power levels

[SpringDon]

I’ve been looking at pcp rifles and rather liked the daystate huntsman. Due to the delays caused by the current unpleasantness, I have (stupidly) been reading the internet and amongst the deluge of how rubbish all daystate rifles are, there was a consistent refrain that the power level is low (10ftlb or less) from the factory. This was explained by saying it varied a lot with the pellet (Bisley magnums were mentioned as the highest) so had to be low to allow for certain pellets.

Is this a trait of pcps? I only ask because my previous few springers never varied by that much, in that if a heavier pellet was used, it went a bit slower.

[GingerCat]

Pcps like tend to heavier pellets, something to do with the delivery of air from the valve and not a spring piston blasting down a cylinder. 

The benefit of a pcp is that they can be tuned to pretty much whatever power setting you like quite easily, so if it is a bit lower you can turn it up. Anything over 10ftlbs is fine, I bet your target wouldn't tell the difference between 10.3 and 11.3. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, nothing wrong with a Huntsman, been using AA fields in my PCPs for years, not sure you class them as heavy but they kill rats

[SpringDon]

Thanks (I feel like a dinosaur). Another recurrent theme seems to be that if they are filled to max pressure, the power goes down which doesn’t make much sense to me.

18 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

<snip>
Anything over 10ftlbs is fine, I bet your target wouldn't tell the difference between 10.3 and 11.3. 

I’ve never really thought much about power before (but I’ve never considered paying £800 for an air gun before!). Does a nigh on 10% difference in muzzle energy make little difference to pellet drop or energy to the target? Or is it back to putting the pellet in the right place is the most important?

[sportsbob]

12 minutes ago, SpringDon said:

Thanks (I feel like a dinosaur). Another recurrent theme seems to be that if they are filled to max pressure, the power goes down which doesn’t make much sense to me.

Copied from a previous post I made, the description is a little crude but it gets the basic point over.

The reason for that is when the hammer hits the valve for it to open it has to push against the weight (pressure ) of the air in the cylinder  which is forcing it closed. As the pressure drops the valve can open a little more or for a little longer which allows a little more air into the barrel. A great deal of design goes into the valve design to help it "regulate" the air flow,  this is why a regulator improves things because the pressure on the valve is a constant.

Edited May 20, 2020 by sportsbob

[GingerCat]

14 minutes ago, SpringDon said:

Thanks (I feel like a dinosaur). Another recurrent theme seems to be that if they are filled to max pressure, the power goes down which doesn’t make much sense to me.

I’ve never really thought much about power before (but I’ve never considered paying £800 for an air gun before!). Does a nigh on 10% difference in muzzle energy make little difference to pellet drop or energy to the target? Or is it back to putting the pellet in the right place is the most important?

The one difference I've noticed is it's far easier to shoot accurately with a pcp than with a Springer. They are almost boring in their accuracy, literally 10p sized groups at 45m for me, tighter if I really tried and that's not a pricey one. I could never do that with a Springer no matter how hard I tried, certainly not all day long. Standing unrested and I can plink my little knock down targets quite easily, all about the size of a rabbits head. Pellet drop etc is predictable as it always the same. The quarry has never noticed any difference but it makes me look a good shot. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

8 minutes ago, SpringDon said:

Thanks (I feel like a dinosaur). Another recurrent theme seems to be that if they are filled to max pressure, the power goes down which doesn’t make much sense to me.

I’ve never really thought much about power before (but I’ve never considered paying £800 for an air gun before!). Does a nigh on 10% difference in muzzle energy make little difference to pellet drop or energy to the target? Or is it back to putting the pellet in the right place is the most important?

hello, both my PCPs are 200bar,  both in VGC and i fill to 195 and shoot down to 50 bar, both are 11.5 ft llb  i have never worried on muzzle energy, or ever used a crono, you can get PCPs with regulators that give a better power curve, i do prefer the AA S410 to the Daystate

[SpringDon]

10 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

<snip>
i do prefer the AA S410 to the Daystate

Any particular reason? I ask because a 510 was one I was considering but it seems a bit expensive.

[Ultrastu]

The Daystate huntsman uses a sling shot hammer system (as opposed to a constant pressure hammer in usual pcps ).this can mean that just winding up the preload hammer spring dosent always increase energy .in fact it can reduce it .. the sling shots have a sweet spot on the preload  hammer spring where it will make max energy ..if that max energy is 10 fpe  then no amount of  easy fiddling with the spring will increase it .you would have to re engineer the components .like transfere port or hammer weight .etc .

This is the reason for all the huntsman compliants about power  its not easy to adjust . 

[clangerman]

55 minutes ago, SpringDon said:

Any particular reason? I ask because a 510 was one I was considering but it seems a bit expensive.

proof of the pudding is in the eating i carry a air arms s510 carbine in the landie couldn’t count the amount shot with it never broken down never cleaned abused daily think it cost me £450 with bottle and scope second hand 

[enfieldspares]

My Scorpion T-10 in .177 was set up by Phil Crampton at Ratworks to give 11.59 ft/lbs with Bisley Magnum when he fitted a regulator to it. FWIW I'd always to cover my own bases have any air rifle I bought checked over a chronograph if I had it set up with a regulator.

[oldypigeonpopper]

2 hours ago, SpringDon said:

Any particular reason? I ask because a 510 was one I was considering but it seems a bit expensive.

hello, only because i had one and never any problem in 5 years and 1000s of pellet, it was many years back before the 510, i do like the side lever action now as my FX has one, ,but see no point in a shroud, a later PCP was a BSA R 10 in 22 that had a shroud which i took off but had a very good silencer, i see no reason that the 510 would not give years of good service, a friend has a S300 from new and got it serviced after 10 years, still going well, is that £800 just for rifle?  

[SpringDon]

3 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

<snip>

This is the reason for all the huntsman compliants about power  its not easy to adjust . 

Thanks. Do you happen to know if that’s true for the latest regulated version? 

 

55 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, only because i had one and never any problem in 5 years and 1000s of pellet, it was many years back before the 510, i do like the side lever action now as my FX has one, ,but see no point in a shroud, a later PCP was a BSA R 10 in 22 that had a shroud which i took off but had a very good silencer, i see no reason that the 510 would not give years of good service, a friend has a S300 from new and got it serviced after 10 years, still going well, is that £800 just for rifle?  

Yes and I’m starting to think second hand might be much better idea. 800 is a lot if it’s something with problems. Slightly worried by the amount of people that have spent lots on a rifle (of multiple makes) and seem to have lots of complaints. Mind you, the happy ones don’t spend time moaning on the internet.

[Mr.C]

And your unregulated gun will shoot a little high if your nice black cylinder gets too hot in the sunshine. Not a problem as long as you're aware of it. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

1 hour ago, SpringDon said:

Thanks. Do you happen to know if that’s true for the latest regulated version? 

 

Yes and I’m starting to think second hand might be much better idea. 800 is a lot if it’s something with problems. Slightly worried by the amount of people that have spent lots on a rifle (of multiple makes) and seem to have lots of complaints. Mind you, the happy ones don’t spend time moaning on the internet.

hello, only ever bought one new but it was years ago and a lot cheaper than todays prices

[Ultrastu]

3 hours ago, SpringDon said:

Thanks. Do you happen to know if that’s true for the latest regulated version? 

 

I dont know about the huma regged version .i do know .that my fx wildcat .

Also has a sling shot system coupled with a reg .and the above applies .

There is a max energy that is governed by the reg not the hammer spring .

If i want more energy i have to increase the reg pressure  .

3 hours ago, Mr.C said:

And your unregulated gun will shoot a little high if your nice black cylinder gets too hot in the sunshine. Not a problem as long as you're aware of it. 

Why ? 

I understand how sun may effect the black tube of your scope and change poi .

But air tube ? Unless its connected to the barrel  via a band ,perhaps 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Ultrastu

[villaman]

Stay well clear of daystate , all the negative comments you have read are completely true . Will never touch another daystate as long as I have hole in my backside and that’s putting it politely 

[wyn]

I have a daystate......it blew up in the gun cabinet .     Daystate don't keep spare parts for repairs and i had to make parts to repair it myself.    I always laugh at what seems to be a mixture of imperial and metric bolts on it.

[Mr.C]

@Ultrastu

I was advised by a very good shot who used to shoot MPR, as I still do, that this was the case. I have also found it to be so. I have to be careful if bracketing and shooting top of kill that I don't split 12 o'clock. The MPR does have a barrel band but I'd assumed it was power increase with increased pressure. 

[Ultrastu]

The pressure in an airtube is always changing as you fill and shoot .

Usually in a unregged pcp .the muzzle energy drops  if you go much over 220 bar ,not  increases .

It more likely that the scope tube expands in the heat  (thats why the  very top scopes are actually silver not black ) Or your barrel could be expanding . (Its also steel .) 

Or the air tube expands lengthways and indoing so through the barrel band pushes the barrel slightly up wards 

An extra 10 bar of pressure in your gun isnt gonna make any difference to anything  .

 

[Mr.C]

I shall quiz him further next time I see him.

[Bobba]

On 20 May 2020 at 09:15, GingerCat said:

The benefit of a pcp is that they can be tuned to pretty much whatever power setting you like quite easily, so if it is a bit lower you can turn it up. Anything over 10ftlbs is fine, I bet your target wouldn't tell the difference between 10.3 and 11.3. 

A word of caution if I may. There can also be a dis-benefit of home tuning (fiddling) unless you have a chrono to test the result of your work. If the resulting ft lbs exceeds 12 ft lbs then you become the possessor of a firearm and without a firearms certain it becomes a criminal offence. The chances of being caught are remote. But.......

I've an early AA S410 which can be adjusted but I had a Ben Taylor reg fitted to avoid power creep. I believe that later models had an anti-tamper system

[oldypigeonpopper]

2 hours ago, Bobba said:

A word of caution if I may. There can also be a dis-benefit of home tuning (fiddling) unless you have a chrono to test the result of your work. If the resulting ft lbs exceeds 12 ft lbs then you become the possessor of a firearm and without a firearms certain it becomes a criminal offence. The chances of being caught are remote. But.......

I've an early AA S410 which can be adjusted but I had a Ben Taylor reg fitted to avoid power creep. I believe that later models had an anti-tamper system

hello, you could do that with an early S200, yes now they have anti tamper stud, or what ever is the proper name

[strimmer_13]

Id sooner buy a air arms, bsa or fx than a daystate. Never hear much good said about them. 

[SpringDon]

On 20/05/2020 at 17:45, Ultrastu said:

I dont know about the huma regged version .i do know .that my fx wildcat .

<snip>

The regulator in the huntsman seems to be the same as the one sold as an after market fitment. There’s a document relating to its adjustment on the daystate site. (Mind you, I think I’m put off daystates now)