Demonstrations in london

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

But statistically affects more of the black communities in the US & UK than white. It's a complex cause and effect tree (or maybe circular track analogy would be better).

Yes it does but I don't believe it is because of their colour.

I think the divide between the haves and the have nots is the single biggest issue facing humanity at the moment, you will see countless posts throughout PW by myself arguing this point, I consider myself to be in a privileged position, which has allowed me opportunities and rewards not open to many in society.

The problem is, these protests will take the heat off the string pullers with this issue, as it will become about race, instead of inequality of wealth.

8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

And this is why I suggested engaging with the leaders / spokes people around the table.

The thing is there certainly appears to be major issues with Police brutality in the US, particularly with their City Police forces which look to be getting reformed in a big way. Whilst these criminals with a badge aren't necessarily racially motivated, the black community will see more victims than white because of circumstance. Not everybody is able to see the distinction.

There are undoubtedly elements on both sides that wish to see the divisions and discrimination continue. Sorry, this is incomplete but I need to do some work...

No it's a good post with good points, imo, thanks for the effort 👍

[Mice!]

32 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

There is no evidence to suggest that the FG death was racially motivated, even the black people I am close to accept that. Some even go as far as accepting there would have been much better people to hang this recent BLM gig on. I think it's about timing. Communities depressed over COVID, the BAME community taking a bigger hit than the rest of us, run down communities feeling the economic hit earlier and harder than the rest of us, etc. - this is why I cited the butterfly effect and agreed on the catalyst / run-away analogy of the Arch Duke.

This makes sense,  what doesn't make sense is then going joining a mass protest with a group who are apparently more susceptible to Covid, they may have had masks on but I doubt very much they wore them the whole day, travelling included. 

Also on QT last night they said about the numbers of black people in prison in Wales, I'm not sure if they said the number was 3 times higher than the percentage of white people,  I was shaking my head at this point.  Unless the coloured community in Wales is being unfairly targeted then if people brake the law and get caught and tried then they go to prison? This could be because of the areas I don't know, but ties in with what you say about communities and the economic hit.

[Mice!]

40 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

For me this is absolutely one of the key points, possible the key point.

Sorry Raja missed this, there will always be topics that aren't taught, they were doing A level I think or higher, they were then saying that more should be taught about the history of minority groups in schools.

I don't see how there would be time in the curriculum, the various different histories could probably take most of the school term at the expense of something else,  for me learning about Great Britain. 

My wife worked in Blackburn years ago and off the top of my head there were 7 or 8 different nationalities at least in her class, you could never teach all those histories. 

 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Mice! said:

This makes sense,  what doesn't make sense is then going joining a mass protest with a group who are apparently more susceptible to Covid, they may have had masks on but I doubt very much they wore them the whole day, travelling included. 

Agreed, it doesn't (make sense), the issue is that we are not dealing with clear rational logic here, for some there is a burning feeling of injustice, lack of opportunity and discrimination burning and eating them up inside and waiting for an excuse to be released. And then certain areas of the media pour petrol on it. Perfect.

Also on QT last night they said about the numbers of black people in prison in Wales, I'm not sure if they said the number was 3 times higher than the percentage of white people,  I was shaking my head at this point.  Unless the coloured community in Wales is being unfairly targeted then if people brake the law and get caught and tried then they go to prison? This could be because of the areas I don't know, but ties in with what you say about communities and the economic hit.

I don't know either, but as I'm sure you'd agree, that doesn't make black people in Wales 3 times "badder" than white people - although some would happily interpret it that way.

Some of this comes back to how people react to a sense of injustice - some will use it to motivate themselves to do better - make a point etc., others will take the fall back position of being the victim and forever bear the grudge. Personally speaking, I have always tried to take the former path but I have a friend who repeatedly takes the defeatist victim position (well acknowledged in that circle of friends).

The thing is I can relate to a sense of injustice based on chance or whatever, an example being I got put in the lower set for computer studies in school (later suggested because I was last on the register due to my surname). I'm not sure how I'd react to an injustice served on me due to the colour of my skin, potentially differently. I can relate to a time Nairobi police tried to extort money out of me but that was a short term incident rather than a lasting action, if that makes sense.

Just now, Mice! said:

Sorry Raja missed this, there will always be topics that aren't taught, they were doing A level I think or higher, they were then saying that more should be taught about the history of minority groups in schools.

I don't see how there would be time in the curriculum, the various different histories could probably take most of the school term at the expense of something else,  for me learning about Great Britain. 

My wife worked in Blackburn years ago and off the top of my head there were 7 or 8 different nationalities at least in her class, you could never teach all those histories. 

 

But as far as I know that part of our history has never existed in any form of cirriculum in the UK. That's the key point for me. Happy to be proven wrong though.

[Rewulf]

57 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I'm following perfectly.

Good.

57 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I was referring to the Smart Mobility Living Labs in Greenwich and Stratford.

Which you compared to the 'Seattle safe zone ' which has chased the police out of their station, and installed a black rapper with a long criminal history as its leader/'warlord' who dishes out violence to those who dont follow the 'rules'
Incidentally , where is the MSN coverage of this event ?

 

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Yep, absolutely. But I suspect the mobs on the other end of the spectrum are much more nasty and dangerous, proven by history and we might get a reminder or just how despicable they are this weekend (hopefully not).

THEY are not burning buildings down and demanding statues be removed though are they?
In fact , where are they at all ?
They are very wisely keeping their heads down and letting BLM and antifa do all their work for them in recruitment.

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Whilst there may be far left, black supremacist undertones to BLM, I would imagine the vast majority of the people undertaking peaceful protest in the name of the BLM slogan in it's recent context are blissfully unaware. Similarly with the white rent a mob brigade - can't imagine they are openly supporting black supremacist anti white racist values.

The peaceful majority are irrelevant. History proves this time and time again.

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

The thing is, I'm quite sure that each and every one of the far right "protesters" on the streets of the UK knows exactly what the ideology and values they stand for are. The authorities know too, so if it does kick off with them I'd fully expect a very different response from the Police.

I dont think theyll show up, why would they confirm what the protesters are saying ?

45 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

The thing is there certainly appears to be major issues with Police brutality in the US, particularly with their City Police forces which look to be getting reformed in a big way. Whilst these criminals with a badge aren't necessarily racially motivated, the black community will see more victims than white because of circumstance. Not everybody is able to see the distinction.

And this is where the gnarly issue of black criminality rears its head, but we cant talk about that because its deemed racist..
You can blame poverty for black crime, or you can blame the cops for 'only' arresting black people, but neither is true.
Its a cultural thing, the way people are bought up, respect, for yourself and others.
Many people are bought up by good parents in abject poverty, and go on to be good people.
Others are bought up by bad parents in affluence, and go on to be criminals.

Being black doesnt automatically mean you will not do well in life, or even end up in jail.
But far too many have decided crime is their career path at a very early age, because 'thats what people of my colour do' 
Plus they are told 'The white man wont give you no opportunity to better yourself' 
Which is the racist chip on the shoulder that many of them carry throughout their lives.
Its a self fulfilling prophecy.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

Which you compared to the 'Seattle safe zone ' which has chased the police out of their station, and installed a black rapper with a long criminal history as its leader/'warlord' who dishes out violence to those who dont follow the 'rules'
Incidentally , where is the MSN coverage of this event ?

Nah, I didn't. What were you saying about not following?

THEY are not burning buildings down and demanding statues be removed though are they?
In fact , where are they at all ?
They are very wisely keeping their heads down and letting BLM and antifa do all their work for them in recruitment.

So, where do you stand on this? I'm pretty central so neither side stands a chance of recruiting me.

The peaceful majority are irrelevant. History proves this time and time again.

That'd be the people standing up against racial inequality and discrimination?

I dont think theyll show up, why would they confirm what the protesters are saying ?

I suspect some of them can't help themselves, they were even present in small number at the Hyde Park gathering. There's been a few clips shown throughout the week too.

And this is where the gnarly issue of black criminality rears its head, but we cant talk about that because its deemed racist..
You can blame poverty for black crime, or you can blame the cops for 'only' arresting black people, but neither is true.
Its a cultural thing, the way people are bought up, respect, for yourself and others.
Many people are bought up by good parents in abject poverty, and go on to be good people.
Others are bought up by bad parents in affluence, and go on to be criminals.

I agree with this, so far. I'd add if anyone tries to evaluate / reason about this on a binary basis they'll fail.

Being black doesnt automatically mean you will not do well in life, or even end up in jail.
But far too many have decided crime is their career path at a very early age, because 'thats what people of my colour do' 
Plus they are told 'The white man wont give you no opportunity to better yourself' 
Which is the racist chip on the shoulder that many of them carry throughout their lives.
Its a self fulfilling prophecy.

For some yes, but it's not because they are black, it's because that is human nature (for them).

 

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Nah, I didn't. What were you saying about not following?

  2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

But it's a classic example of what we are talking about, as in 'shady' organisations. 

Have you seen this? https://on.rt.com/ajam

Do you fancy a nice 'safe zone' down your way 😂

A shady organisation with a website that comes up high in the list of a google search on neo-illiberalism?

We already have two autonomous zones in london and they act as a seedbed for innovation, you can keep your type up norf thanks 😛 

 

What were you saying there then ? 

[old'un]

11 hours ago, ditchman said:

it has now being reported that "they"...want to take down the 2 statues of Nelson down in Norfolk...and the Britania monument in yarmouth..............well i can tell you now .."over my dead body"...Norfolk is Nelsons county and always will be...and its my county...its my home and my history and my blood........next it will be all the Nelson pubs ....Nelson roads...etc...etc...etc....

so get stuffed.......all this is just going too far..........i want to know who is really behind this and under what banner.........if they continue with this milarkee...there is going to be a very very serious backlash at election time....and some seriously nasty people will get into power....

You ditchman should no longer have the right to influence policy in the UK, you should not have a vote after the age of 65 as you no longer contribute anything to society, you have had your time and moulded a society that has caused all these problems, it is now the time for the young generation to have their voices heard, well that’s all according to one of my nieces (20 years old) she supports the protesters and was also against Brexit, she thinks the older generation have ruined hers and other young peoples future.

According to my niece, you and I are long over due our ride on the carousel. 

[Rewulf]

There you go all sorted, the voice of the people has been heard.
Now for the next offensive item to be removed from public view.

Far right thugs (scouts~) protecting the racist statue of Baden Powell

Edited June 12, 2020 by Rewulf

[ditchman]

4 minutes ago, old'un said:

You ditchman should no longer have the right to influence policy in the UK, you should not have a vote after the age of 65 as you no longer contribute anything to society, you have had your time and moulded a society that has caused all these problems, it is now the time for the young generation to have their voices heard, well that’s all according to one of my nieces (20 years old) she supports the protesters and was also against Brexit, she thinks the older generation have ruined hers and other young peoples future.

According to my niece, you and I are long over due our ride on the carousel. 

tell her im going to book myself into a carehome.....and then a day trip to Dignitas    in Switzerland...(one way ticket)

[grrclark]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Genuinely interested, if you'd care to enlighten me. I'm not being clever, I really am trying to put myself in the protesters shoes and all I can come up with for the people smashing stuff up, is they're criminals, fair enough those peacefully protesting, I still don't understand their point, other than it looks very likely Floyd was unlawfully killed in a very inhumane way, I see no evidence to date it would have been any different what colour he was.

Jumping back in the thread a bit.  If you have time read Malcom Gladwell's book Tipping Point.  It isn't about politics or identity or race or anything specific to the demonstrations and disturbances we are seeing now, it is about the often untangible, non specific things that act as a catalyst for change.

There are loads of areas where there is simmering discontent just now (I daresay there always is) and all of these come together in a way that whatever creates a spark ignites a far bigger fire than could have been predicted.

You're right that what we are witnessing globally isn't really to do with GF, just that was the spark that we can see and identify right now.

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, grrclark said:

You're right that what we are witnessing globally isn't really to do with GF, just that was the spark that we can see and identify right now.

A spark usually requires some one fanning the flames to get the fire going properly.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

  2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

But it's a classic example of what we are talking about, as in 'shady' organisations. 

Have you seen this? https://on.rt.com/ajam

Do you fancy a nice 'safe zone' down your way 😂

A shady organisation with a website that comes up high in the list of a google search on neo-illiberalism?

We already have two autonomous zones in london and they act as a seedbed for innovation, you can keep your type up norf thanks 😛 

 

What were you saying there then ? 

I was referring to the 5G infrastructure and autonomous vehicle testing capabilities 😛 

I'd assumed you weren't being serious and replied in kind 🙂 

Just now, Rewulf said:

There you go all sorted, the voice of the people has been heard.
Now for the next offensive item to be removed from public view.

A sensible precaution, must have been the local council and not the government

Far right thugs (scouts~) protecting the racist statue of Baden Powell

Good choice of tent, although you are actually supposed to sit in them

 

The other pic is a bit extreme really...

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

I'd assumed you weren't being serious and replied in kind

Im always serious 😏

But joking apart, if that can happen in Seattle , I could easily see it happening in a lefty area of London, especially with little sadiqs new found 'powers'
Policing by consent in this country , could mean 'we dont consent, and will police ourselves' 
That could be interesting....

[Mice!]

@Rewulf

I hoped that your picture was a joke, I can't believe they are having to cover up these monuments!! 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

Im always serious 😏

But joking apart, if that can happen in Seattle , I could easily see it happening in a lefty area of London, especially with little sadiqs new found 'powers'
Policing by consent in this country , could mean 'we dont consent, and will police ourselves' 
That could be interesting....

And if it does, the government you told in such high esteem will be to blame. I'm no supporter of Sadiq but this won't be of his doing.

That said, I really can't see it happening.

You mentioned no go areas for the Met Police in London, where are they and is it opinion or fact - I suspect I may have ridden through such areas about this time last year on an organised overnight ride around / through London...

[old'un]

33 minutes ago, ditchman said:

tell her im going to book myself into a carehome.....and then a day trip to Dignitas    in Switzerland...(one way ticket)

No need for a trip to Switzerland, this C-19 virus will take care of us old’uns if we become infected, and its more than likely spreading among the protesters which by and large seem to-be youngsters, now there’s a thought, a virus that is more likely to kill the old and sick but youngsters are likely to get away with just the sniffles, tell me, the release of this virus was an accident, wasn’t it?     

[grrclark]

25 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

A spark usually requires some one fanning the flames to get the fire going properly.

To continue with the rather naff idioms, not when that spark is in an explosive atmosphere.

[Rewulf]

14 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

And if it does, the government you told in such high esteem will be to blame. I'm no supporter of Sadiq but this won't be of his doing.

Is that the same as knife and violent street crime is not his doing either ?
The man has  a tenuous grip on the wheel, his ambitions far outweigh his skill.
Thats the sort of man who would allow it to happen.

 

16 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

You mentioned no go areas for the Met Police in London, where are they and is it opinion or fact

Just go on the Met website, theyll tell you all the areas they dont go to, they have absolutely no problem admitting it , or sharing this information 

Like I said , dont subscribe to the notion of 'If it aint on a google search , it never happened' school of thought.
You live in the place, ask people who live in some of the more 'diverse' areas.

1 minute ago, grrclark said:

To continue with the rather naff idioms, not when that spark is in an explosive atmosphere.

Was it really though ?
We could bat this one back and forth all day, but I truly believe that mans death was hijacked by a lefty/democrat movement in the US to make sure theres enough ammo in the can , to make sure Trump isnt re elected.
Tin foil time ? I really dont think so.

If the fall out can bring Boris and the tories / Brexit down too , all well and good.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

Is that the same as knife and violent street crime is not his doing either ?
The man has  a tenuous grip on the wheel, his ambitions far outweigh his skill.
Thats the sort of man who would allow it to happen.

Are you suggesting he is directly responsible for knife and violent crime in London? 

Look at his predecessors - Ken & Boris, hardly a hall of fame is it, him being the worst of all three, if indeed he is, doesn't exactly make the other two exemplary, does it....

Just go on the Met website, theyll tell you all the areas they dont go to, they have absolutely no problem admitting it , or sharing this information 

I'll take a look

Like I said , dont subscribe to the notion of 'If it aint on a google search , it never happened' school of thought.

What like the same school of thought whereby a white person concludes there is no racism because they've not witnessed it.
You live in the place, ask people who live in some of the more 'diverse' areas.

 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

Are you suggesting he is directly responsible for knife and violent crime in London? 

No.

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

Look at his predecessors - Ken & Boris, hardly a hall of fame is it, him being the worst of all three, if indeed he is, doesn't exactly make the other two exemplary, does it....

No.

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

I'll take a look

Go for it 

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

What like the same school of thought whereby a white person concludes there is no racism because they've not witnessed it.

I dont agree with that statement.
I witnessed it , Ive been a victim of racial violence, to conclude it doesnt exist isnt credible.
But we have to understand that its not just a white problem.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

No.

No.

Go for it 

I dont agree with that statement.
I witnessed it , Ive been a victim of racial violence, to conclude it doesnt exist isnt credible.
But we have to understand that its not just a white problem.

Sorry to hear about that. The closest we've been affected, at least recently, was my son being relieved of his mobile on his commute home for work.

It certainly is not just a white problem. What we need to do to move forward is thrift out those who really want it put to bed vs. those who just use it as a front to have a platform, voice, agenda or whatever...

[henry d]

20 hours ago, Mice! said:

Trinity more or less said what the msg I've been sent says, I have deleted part of it, I've had it from friends and family,  I've seen it online and I'm sure others have as well. It started as a rant at a comedy club in 2006 and has been adapted since to suit.

############

True this.

 

I have been wondering about why whites are racists, and no other race is? 

There are British Africans, British Chinese, British Asian, British Turks, etc, etc, etc. Really? You really believe this?

And then there are just British. You know what I mean, plain ole English people that were born here. You can include the Welsh, the Scottish and the people who live off our shores of Great Britain. (How very nice...)

You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you. So why are the ghettos the most dangerous places to live? Ghettos????

<<snipped for brevity>>

 

This is where the numbers come in I feel Henry.

 

Yeah, @TRINITY `s numbers game, he still hasn`t got back with the numbers has he? Here`s a back of a fag packet calculation using ONS stats.

67 M people in the UK, (87%) 58,290,000 white British (WB), (6.92%) 4,636,400 Asian

Natural change (births minus deaths) /1000 is 1.7, call it 2 for ease of numbers and rather than mess about lets say that the natural change for WB is 0.5 and Asian is 1.5 there is a mathematical error there but go along with me as it favours your belief.

Therefore next year 58290 x .5 = 29145 more WB are alive in the UK and 6954.6 Asians which as a quick calculation, there will be around 4 times as many WB per year.

So 58,319,145 and 4,643,354.6 next year

29,159.6 and 6,965.1 added the next year so again there will be around 4 times as many WB per year a total of 58,348,304.6 and 4,650,319.7, so do I need to go on?

The first thing someone will do to try to defend the position is to say “they” have loads of kids compared to “us” however that is not wholly true, Asian immigrants quickly naturalise to the country they arrive in and second and third generations have similar birth rates to the rest of the country.

[grrclark]

9 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Was it really though ?

We could bat this one back and forth all day, but I truly believe that mans death was hijacked by a lefty/democrat movement in the US to make sure theres enough ammo in the can , to make sure Trump isnt re elected.
Tin foil time ? I really dont think so.

If the fall out can bring Boris and the tories / Brexit down too , all well and good.

It may well be that the prevailing atmosphere amongst the left leaning populice of America is so febrile just now because of Trump that this was the spark they wanted.

The point is that the atmosphere still exists, Trump is monstrously divisive and whatever side of the fence for him you may reside it doesn't take away from the fact that there is an explosive atmosphere of discontent.  Trump being elected is precisely because of that discontent so hardly surprising that the other side wish to rally against that.

Remember the majority of American voters did not vote for Trump, but the electoral system gave him the gig.  Is it surprising or even bad that the democrat movement want rid of him?  Surely that is the natural order of things.

Likewise Brexit is hugely divisive as is BoJo, i'm a tory and I think he is a tool and I think the current government are a shambles, so no surprise if those who are not tories feel even stronger.

In our case of course the majority of those who voted in the referendum did vote for Brexit, but by a slight margin such that there is still a massively disaffected community around that, so again no surprise if the general discontent bubbles to the surface.  Those that already feel left behind think they are going to be even further disadvantaged, it would be naive in the extreme not to think there will be protest.

Extinction Rebellion is the same, part of that movement harbours radical idealists who want to take down the government and capitalism, but broadly it is a vessel for a massive amount of people who feel strongly about the aligned cause and jump on the bandwagon.

The point of all this being is that where there is an explosive atmosphere caused by discontent, whether it is real or imagined, then any spark can ignite that.

[henry d]

1 hour ago, grrclark said:

If you have time read Malcom Gladwell's book Tipping Point. 

 

1 minute ago, grrclark said:

The point of all this being is that where there is an explosive atmosphere caused by discontent, whether it is real or imagined, then any spark can ignite that.

I just had a quick look at his book, it seems to have similar principles to complexity theory, but is aimed at the specifics of social contexts, do you know if there are updates of his theses or similar ideas?