Demonstrations in london

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

But it's a classic example of what we are talking about, as in 'shady' organisations. 

Have you seen this? https://on.rt.com/ajam

Do you fancy a nice 'safe zone' down your way 😂

A shady organisation with a website that comes up high in the list of a google search on neo-illiberalism?

We already have two autonomous zones in london and they act as a seedbed for innovation, you can keep your type up norf thanks 😛 

[WalkedUp]

The shooting of Archduke Frank Ferdinand started the First World War. With BLM the tinderbox of inequality was set up and unfortunately police brutality was the match that lit it. I do not condone what happened, but can understand how it had happened. 

In reference to the post about how it started. 

[Jaymo]

12 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

One of my architects is unhappy that she has been furloughed without the additional employer contribution. 80% pay for zero work. Her fiancé is an architect too. They have a very good combined income and no children. At Christmas we gifted the office extra days holiday as a bonus. She complained that we only gifted 3 days and that didn’t fit in with her plans. Tempted to fire her just to help her learn a valuable life lesson 🤣 But sadly she’s too good to let go and also the head of HR would hang me out to dry. 

I’m not sure what her normal salary is? But being capped at £2500 means she could be actually receiving a lot less than 80% - not good if your prior commitments were greater than this ( plus, remember it’s subject to tax and NI)

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

I would still like someone to give me a logical reason Floyd being shot caused a race war, I saw nothing (yet) that points to his death being in any way racially motivated. The only racism I have seen so far, is towards anyone white, as it would appear, merely being born white is all that needs to happen to be accused of being a racist by certain individuals, some of whom are white themselves I must add.

The whole situation is ludicrous to me, what this has to do with the UK completely eludes me. I think the vast majority of people here, see what's going on here (UK) as nothing more than an excuse for a lawless element of society to run amok unabated.

Butterfly effect, a bit like the SARS-CoV-2.

Just now, WalkedUp said:

The shooting of Archduke Frank Ferdinand started the First World War. With BLM the tinderbox of inequality was set up and unfortunately police brutality was the match that lit it. I do not condone what happened, but can understand how it had happened. 

In reference to the post about how it started. 

Good analogy. 

[12gauge82]

3 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

The shooting of Archduke Frank Ferdinand started the First World War. With BLM the tinderbox of inequality was set up and unfortunately police brutality was the match that lit it. I do not condone what happened, but can understand how it had happened. 

In reference to the post about how it started. 

But police brutality is completely separate to police brutality based on race, particularly when it's in another country by a police force that is nothing to do with us. Unless your honestly suggesting that black people in the UK are being beaten up by the police for being black?

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

Good analogy. 

I don't see any similarity at all.

[JohnfromUK]

14 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

Tempted to fire her just to help her learn a valuable life lesson

One lesson is that it is often the 'better off' who are the greediest - which is very probably why they are better off.  My experience is that they are also among the least 'content' and always worried others may be getting 'more/a better deal' than they are.

It isn't a case of 'we are comfortable thanks' - and being happy, its a case of 'they are getting more than us' - and being disgruntled.

16 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I would still like someone to give me a logical reason Floyd being shot caused a race war

No one can do that ........... because there is none.

17 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

what this has to do with the UK completely eludes me

Correct, but there are a lot of 'agitators' for whom 'any excuse will do' - and they cannot keep their noses out of other peoples business.

 

18 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think the vast majority of people here, see what's going on here (UK) as nothing more than an excuse for a lawless element of society to run amok unabated.

Agreed.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

I don't see any similarity at all.

I'm not surprised.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

A shady organisation with a website that comes up high in the list of a google search on neo-illiberalism

I don't think you're following, open democracy has nothing to do with democracy or neo liberalism, its an alt left, ultra socialist wing of soros open society. 

They clearly state they want to bring down capitalism, but do they really? 

Chaos > profit 

7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

We already have two autonomous zones in london and they act as a seedbed for innovation, you can keep your type up norf thanks

You have zone's in London run by local drug dealers, where the police darent go, that's the closest I can think of to the Seattle  safe zone. 

 

6 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Butterfly effect, a bit like the SARS-CoV-2

So blm and antifa are like a disease 😂

[Mice!]

21 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

whole situation is ludicrous to me, what this has to do with the UK completely eludes me. I think the vast majority of people here, see what's going on here (UK) as nothing more than an excuse for a lawless element of society to run amok unabated

Have you noticed these things only ever happen during good weather,  and its 26° in the loony south Saturday. 

I watched a bit of question time last night and had to turn it off, mixed race or non white individuals in government jobs complaining that there aren't the same opportunities still for everyone??

And still saying that statues need to come down??

One fella made a good point about history lessons saying the history he was reading with his son wasn't right,  he knew this but his son wouldn't without being told.

[12gauge82]

5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I'm not surprised.

Genuinely interested, if you'd care to enlighten me. I'm not being clever, I really am trying to put myself in the protesters shoes and all I can come up with for the people smashing stuff up, is they're criminals, fair enough those peacefully protesting, I still don't understand their point, other than it looks very likely Floyd was unlawfully killed in a very inhumane way, I see no evidence to date it would have been any different what colour he was.

[JohnfromUK]

8 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

not good if your prior commitments were greater than this

One of life's puzzles to me as someone who is now retired, but had a reasonable (i.e. a little above average) salary for most of my working life ........... is how some reasonably well paid people spend up to (and often a bit beyond) their salaries.  I have known people on the same sort of salary as me who have had several credit cards 'maxed out' and struggle to get to the end of the month.  And yet as well as maxed out cards - on which they are paying high interest, they have kitchens, double glazing, car, furniture etc. all on 'pay by the month' ......... and still 'go out and have a meal/show/drinks session' most weekends, many 'weekend breaks', holidays, skiing .......... and absolutely no savings.  Apparently they enjoy their llves (or so they kept telling me - "you should go out more and enjoy yourself was the saying").

Frankly - if I was like that - I would hate it due to the worry of being in permanent debt and having to 'savings in reserve'.

Perhaps I'm just an old miser!

[Mice!]

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Frankly - if I was like that - I would hate it due to the worry of being in permanent debt and having to 'savings in reserve'.

Perhaps I'm just an old miser!

I doubt they have savings in reserve, many people just don't want to save for things, so should they end up unemployed for a spell living beyond your means will bring the world crashing down on them.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

I don't think you're following, open democracy has nothing to do with democracy or neo liberalism, its an alt left, ultra socialist wing of soros open society. 

They clearly state they want to bring down capitalism, but do they really? 

Chaos > profit 

I'm following perfectly.

You have zone's in London run by local drug dealers, where the police darent go, that's the closest I can think of to the Seattle  safe zone. 

I was referring to the Smart Mobility Living Labs in Greenwich and Stratford.

So blm and antifa are like a disease 😂

Yep, absolutely. But I suspect the mobs on the other end of the spectrum are much more nasty and dangerous, proven by history and we might get a reminder or just how despicable they are this weekend (hopefully not).

Whilst there may be far left, black supremacist undertones to BLM, I would imagine the vast majority of the people undertaking peaceful protest in the name of the BLM slogan in it's recent context are blissfully unaware. Similarly with the white rent a mob brigade - can't imagine they are openly supporting black supremacist anti white racist values.

The thing is, I'm quite sure that each and every one of the far right "protesters" on the streets of the UK knows exactly what the ideology and values they stand for are. The authorities know too, so if it does kick off with them I'd fully expect a very different response from the Police.

Cue the binary thinkers, come Monday morning, moaning about the injustice of the different ways the two sides get treated by the police.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

One of life's puzzles to me as someone who is now retired, but had a reasonable (i.e. a little above average) salary for most of my working life ........... is how some reasonably well paid people spend up to (and often a bit beyond) their salaries.  I have known people on the same sort of salary as me who have had several credit cards 'maxed out' and struggle to get to the end of the month.  And yet as well as maxed out cards - on which they are paying high interest, they have kitchens, double glazing, car, furniture etc. all on 'pay by the month' ......... and still 'go out and have a meal/show/drinks session' most weekends, many 'weekend breaks', holidays, skiing .......... and absolutely no savings.  Apparently they enjoy their llves (or so they kept telling me - "you should go out more and enjoy yourself was the saying").

Frankly - if I was like that - I would hate it due to the worry of being in permanent debt and having to 'savings in reserve'.

Perhaps I'm just an old miser!

No, I think you may well be an old realist!

[12gauge82]

2 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Have you noticed these things only ever happen during good weather,  and its 26° in the loony south Saturday. 

I watched a bit of question time last night and had to turn it off, mixed race or non white individuals in government jobs complaining that there aren't the same opportunities still for everyone??

And still saying that statues need to come down??

One fella made a good point about history lessons saying the history he was reading with his son wasn't right,  he knew this but his son wouldn't without being told.

Some good points raised, particularly about history, I do agree there's alot of bad people who also had capacity for good who are held up as angles, right through history and of course this has always happened, there's an old saying, "history is written by the victor" but many have fallen to this of all races.

The slave trade was vile, I've never met a person outside of a prison who would disagree with that statement, but it's history, there's no one alive today who is responsible and to blame people for it based on colour is racist in itself.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

Genuinely interested, if you'd care to enlighten me. I'm not being clever, I really am trying to put myself in the protesters shoes and all I can come up with for the people smashing stuff up, is they're criminals, fair enough those peacefully protesting, I still don't understand their point, other than it looks very likely Floyd was unlawfully killed in a very inhumane way, I see no evidence to date it would have been any different what colour he was.

I presume you are white. You've stated that the only racism you see is directed at people of your skin colour. I am therefore not surprised that you don't get this. Nothing sinister, not being nasty or funny, I believe you. It doesn't make you racist either.

There is no evidence to suggest that the FG death was racially motivated, even the black people I am close to accept that. Some even go as far as accepting there would have been much better people to hang this recent BLM gig on. I think it's about timing. Communities depressed over COVID, the BAME community taking a bigger hit than the rest of us, run down communities feeling the economic hit earlier and harder than the rest of us, etc. - this is why I cited the butterfly effect and agreed on the catalyst / run-away analogy of the Arch Duke.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Mice! said:

I doubt they have savings in reserve, many people just don't want to save for things, so should they end up unemployed for a spell living beyond your means will bring the world crashing down on them.

I could never be happy and relaxed if that was the case for me.  Money may not bring happiness, matieial goods may briefly, but security and lack of worry does (for me anyway).

Key in this (and it brings us nicely back on topic) - is to look at how you are situated .......... not keep looking over the fence at how others are doing.  Just looking at the UK, we have good anti discrimination rules, we have a very diverse government (local and national), cabinet, and in many cases high flyers in the various careers they have chosen.  I believe there is pretty much 'equal opportunity'.

Of course there are a few 'rotten apples', but things aren't generally bad overall -  and have improved year on year and continue to do so.

[12gauge82]

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Whilst there may be far left, black supremacist undertones to BLM, I would imagine the vast majority of the people undertaking peaceful protest in the name of the BLM slogan in it's recent context are blissfully unaware. Similarly with the white rent a mob brigade - can't imagine they are openly supporting black supremacist anti white racist values.

The thing is, I'm quite sure that each and every one of the far right "protesters" on the streets of the UK knows exactly what the ideology and values they stand for are. The authorities know too, so if it does kick off with them I'd fully expect a very different response from the Police.

Cue the binary thinkers, come Monday morning, moaning about the injustice of the different ways the two sides get treated by the police.

You've a good point with the far right lot, they're every bit as bad as the other side with their own vile agenda.

But this is why I don't understand the ideology behind this movement, they are igniting a war based on race, where one didn't exist, by blaming anyone white for issues they took no part in, the knuckle draggers and thickos will unite, using the likes of BLM and their behaviour as an excuse to show their racist tendancies, it's utter madness and counter to their goals, unless their goal is to do cause this rift and then play the victim using their extra protection under the law of protected characteristic.

[SpringDon]

5 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Some good points raised, particularly about history, I do agree there's alot of bad people who also had capacity for good who are held up as angles, right through history and of course this has always happened, there's an old saying, "history is written by the victor" but many have fallen to this of all races.

The slave trade was vile, I've never met a person outside of a prison who would disagree with that statement, but it's history, there's no one alive today who is responsible and to blame people for it based on colour is racist in itself.

I can agree with that. The most unpleasant thing to me about the protests (and this thread I think) is that modern slavery exists and not a single person mentions it when interviewed.

[JohnfromUK]

8 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

No, I think you may well be an old realist!

Old realist lives matter ORLM.

I get an urge to go and pull something down when I hear that.

[12gauge82]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I presume you are white. You've stated that the only racism you see is directed at people of your skin colour. I am therefore not surprised that you don't get this. Nothing sinister, not being nasty or funny, I believe you. It doesn't make you racist either.

There is no evidence to suggest that the FG death was racially motivated, even the black people I am close to accept that. Some even go as far as accepting there would have been much better people to hang this recent BLM gig on. I think it's about timing. Communities depressed over COVID, the BAME community taking a bigger hit than the rest of us, run down communities feeling the economic hit earlier and harder than the rest of us, etc. - this is why I cited the butterfly effect and agreed on the catalyst / run-away analogy of the Arch Duke.

I see and that does make sense, except for it being about race, what you've described is a poverty issue and poverty is colour blind.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

One of life's puzzles to me as someone who is now retired, but had a reasonable (i.e. a little above average) salary for most of my working life ........... is how some reasonably well paid people spend up to (and often a bit beyond) their salaries.  I have known people on the same sort of salary as me who have had several credit cards 'maxed out' and struggle to get to the end of the month.  And yet as well as maxed out cards - on which they are paying high interest, they have kitchens, double glazing, car, furniture etc. all on 'pay by the month' ......... and still 'go out and have a meal/show/drinks session' most weekends, many 'weekend breaks', holidays, skiing .......... and absolutely no savings.  Apparently they enjoy their llves (or so they kept telling me - "you should go out more and enjoy yourself was the saying").

Frankly - if I was like that - I would hate it due to the worry of being in permanent debt and having to 'savings in reserve'.

Perhaps I'm just an old miser!

I think it's all about choices and consequences John. My parents lived like you and my father dropped dead suddenly at 51. My brother is just like them and I'm a bit more of a risk taker. Each to their own I say. Whatever path we take we should just be mindful that we must not look back in regret later on...

1 minute ago, Mice! said:

One fella made a good point about history lessons saying the history he was reading with his son wasn't right,  he knew this but his son wouldn't without being told.

For me this is absolutely one of the key points, possible the key point.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

You've a good point with the far right lot, they're every bit as bad as the other side with their own vile agenda.

But this is why I don't understand the ideology behind this movement, they are igniting a war based on race, where one didn't exist, by blaming anyone white for issues they took no part in, the knuckle draggers and thickos will unite, using the likes of BLM and their behaviour as an excuse to show their racist tendancies, it's utter madness and counter to their goals, unless their goal is to do cause this rift and then play the victim using their extra protection under the law of protected characteristic.

And this is why I suggested engaging with the leaders / spokes people around the table.

The thing is there certainly appears to be major issues with Police brutality in the US, particularly with their City Police forces which look to be getting reformed in a big way. Whilst these criminals with a badge aren't necessarily racially motivated, the black community will see more victims than white because of circumstance. Not everybody is able to see the distinction.

There are undoubtedly elements on both sides that wish to see the divisions and discrimination continue. Sorry, this is incomplete but I need to do some work...

[Mice!]

3 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

slave trade was vile, I've never met a person outside of a prison who would disagree with that statement, but it's history, there's no one alive today who is responsible and to blame people for it based on colour is racist in itself.

You could argue that the USA prison system is slave labour, I saw something on it a while ago and it's a massive industry,  more working in there prison service than our armed forces,  but then the country is huge.

Something on the news this morning said a black man is 3 times more likely to be stopped on the street than a white man I think??

That means absolutely nothing,  it doesn't take in to account area for a start, where I live you only see the police occasionally,  the reason being they aren't needed, but sat on the phone this week during a 45 minute call outside my digs there were police everywhere, busy crossroad and 7 or 8 cars and Van's flying around. 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

I see and that does make sense, except for it being about race, what you've described is a poverty issue and poverty is colour blind.

But statistically affects more of the black communities in the US & UK than white. It's a complex cause and effect tree (or maybe circular track analogy would be better).