Damage Cartridge

[Prospero]

Shot my .410 today for first time in ages. Cartridge came out like this?

[DUNKS]

Is your .410 three inch chambered?

[Prospero]

Yes. It says Magnum on the side and when I bought it around 8 years ago, it said on the description of the gun 3" chamber.

[old'un]

is that a 3 inch cartridge you are holding?

Edited July 6, 2020 by old'un

[Prospero]

Yes.

[old'un]

I would check the gun marking to make sure it is a 3 inch chambered gun, descriptions/labels have been known to-be wrong.

[rbrowning2]

I would guess fibre wad? Not uncommon occurrence, in the small gauges,  have seen that also with my 28gauge.

never done any harm still does the business if the shot is in the correct place.

 

[Old farrier]

It’s happened a lot 

common with eley and yes my gun is 3 inch and not worn out 

[Prospero]

Thanks guys, I really like this old .410 - didn't need it to be knackered.

[harkom]

Prospero - are the cartridges closed with RTO or crimp closure? How old are the cartridges ? Storage good -or high temperature possibly leading to plastic degradation?

I might be concerned about possible damage to the barrel if the complete end of cartridge were to go down the tube in company with the shot& wad in one mass.

[kenholland]

most of my eley 3inch magnums look like that once fired, nothing to worry about I shouldn't think ,you might get the odd one that looks like that one .

[London Best]

A mate of mine had this problem with 67mm cartridges in an old English 16 bore chambered 2 1/2 inch. A gun maker diagnosed the problem as being too abrupt forcing cones (virtually a step) at the end of the chamber. Proper 2 1/2 inch cases don’t do it. Poor ****** had 1500 of the 67 mm jobbies in stock.

[Old farrier]

21 minutes ago, London Best said:

A mate of mine had this problem with 67mm cartridges in an old English 16 bore chambered 2 1/2 inch. A gun maker diagnosed the problem as being too abrupt forcing cones (virtually a step) at the end of the chamber. Proper 2 1/2 inch cases don’t do it. Poor ****** had 1500 of the 67 mm jobbies in stock.

Or it could just be a bad batch of eley cartridges 

As said earlier there 3 inch cartridges and 3 inch chambers no step long forcing cones 

didn happen with fiochie or Winchester or hull 

in fact I’d go as far as to say it’s definitely poor quality case or bad loading by manufacturer and taking that eley haven’t responded to emails and the sending back a slab with the fired cases some considerably worse than pictured I shall take the lack of response as there fault 

[Prospero]

11 hours ago, harkom said:

I might be concerned about possible damage to the barrel if the complete end of cartridge were to go down the tube in company with the shot& wad in one mass.

Agreed, I also have a new hushpower 410 - I won't be putting any of these through it.

[lancer425]

It is a low pressure or too slow a powder issue, been two such cases on here in a week. Could be atmospheric but that is just a wild guess. But for sure its Low pressure / Fizling,  damaging case mouths. not uncommon in subsonic or reduced loads low recoil ammo / tame reloads etc.

[Old farrier]

7 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

It is a low pressure or too slow a powder issue, been two such cases on here in a week. Could be atmospheric but that is just a wild guess. But for sure its Low pressure / Fizling,  damaging case mouths. not uncommon in subsonic or reduced loads low recoil ammo / tame reloads etc.

There magnum cartridges (allegedly) 

[Walker570]

I put a thread on a year or more ago about similar in RC and Eley 410 cartridges.  Although my Fiocchi case homeloads do not burn as badly as those shown they do crinkle a bit round the edges preventing re use.    I have never had a Fiocchi factory case do that and I shoot a fair few 410 shells through a season/year as that is almost the only gauge I shoot these days.

My reloads are NOT low pressure and I would assume factory RC and Eley are up to the mark.  I purchased a slab of RC to try last year and almost all of them burned the ends as shown in the photo.   It did not appear to alter my kill to cartridge ratio.

[enfieldspares]

Yes, classic case mouth erosion. Usually more often seen on old English true 65mm chamber guns when used with 67.5mm cartridges. As others say the case end gets "chopped" as it were by the wad as it, the wad, transitions from chamber to bore. Cosmetic but does ruin the cartridges for reloading and, of course, doesn't look at all reassuring. Paper cases also do it if they dry out. It's usually not a safety issue even though it looks as if it would be.

Edited July 7, 2020 by enfieldspares

[rbrowning2]

In my experience it occurs with fibre wads, my guess is that several factors are at work; the small internal diameter of the case and the strength of the plastic used for the case, the internal friction of the wad against the case wall, the 850bar pressure and heat.
Best guess is the wad friction has suffice grip of the case and energy behind it, such that it generates sufficient shear force to fracture the plastic.
Now I bet you will prove me wrong and say they are plastic wads.

[hawkfanz]

nothing wrong with them at all,eley 3in do it on a regular basis,i send em thro a mossy hushy all the time,i just av to trim cases down for reloading,

[lancer425]

14 hours ago, Walker570 said:

I put a thread on a year or more ago about similar in RC and Eley 410 cartridges.  Although my Fiocchi case homeloads do not burn as badly as those shown they do crinkle a bit round the edges preventing re use.    I have never had a Fiocchi factory case do that and I shoot a fair few 410 shells through a season/year as that is almost the only gauge I shoot these days.

My reloads are NOT low pressure and I would assume factory RC and Eley are up to the mark.  I purchased a slab of RC to try last year and almost all of them burned the ends as shown in the photo.   It did not appear to alter my kill to cartridge ratio.

It can be a powder thats a little slow, or ignition too. if your case mouths are slightly on the turn,  switching to a hotter powder even if you have to reduce the powder charge ever so slightly. this could bring about a cleaner burn and even give you a few more FPS and improve consistency.   Ball powders like HS7 / Win 571 can benefit from hotter primers, could be  slow ball powder in the .410 even though the charge is small might benefit like the 10 and 12 loads used to.

one other thing, me not being a.410 expert. Do the lower pressure cases like chedites have more charing than say the very similar Presure/ volume fiocchis? . Or is it the fiocchis showing more sore mouth sign.? Interested to know because the 686 is slightly lower briscance than the typical cx2000s . My thoughts are they should more or less equal out as the fiocchi is slightly smaller volume AFAIK.

Another point, are the eroded mouths from hushpower or silenced .410s . the porting up the bores could be effecting the overall burn some how. ?

Edited July 7, 2020 by lancer425

[enfieldspares]

Barrel length shouldn't matter. I've shot enough plastic 3" Eley .410" cartridges through back in the mid-1980s one of these in the past on my register as an RFD to know that barrel length is not a factor. And yes it was 3" and yes it killed pigeons out to thirty yards.

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by enfieldspares

[snarepeg]

They are fine, just not reloadable.

down to cheap cases or poor quality material.

[Walker570]

21 minutes ago, snarepeg said:

They are fine, just not reloadable.

down to cheap cases or poor quality material.

I also believe it is the case quality as all the ones I have which blow the ends off are red cases and certainly the Eley and the RC appeared to be of the same manufacture. Both the factory Fiochis and any reloads in their cases do not burn in the same way.  The edges do curl a bit but are reloadable.  I have never noticed any failure in performance in the field, things still seem to fall out of the sky.

[rbrowning2]

Interesting, lots of different views on the cause but a consensus that they are safe to use.

dont think it will be due to cheap or poor quality cases as their are only cases, the manufactures will not opt to use poor quality material, just not commercially sensible to do so, they do not offer them in different grades, plus I think only two EU manufactures of .410 cases, cheddite and Fiocchi.

 Eley look to use Fiocchi as their was a batch of eley .410 cartridges being sold with Fiocchi head stamp.
 Fiocchi will be 614, 615 or 616 primers, cheddite cx50, cx1000 or cx2000. Unlike lancer425 I find cheddite have lower volume than Fiocchi. As to powder very little choice of EU powder types suitable for .410 with a 3inch magnum pay load and what mechanism is at work if it is due to burn rate.
looks like nobody really knows the cause, my view is still wad friction, together with possible chamber dimension at the maximum or minimum , but only if they are all fibre wad cartridges.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by rbrowning2