!7 HMR

[wymberley]

Unfortunately, it's possible that my body is letting me down although I may have overdone things over the passed few days - I'll have to wait and see. However, just in case it does not recover I'm having to review what guns I am able to shoot. Consequently, could anyone kindly tell me what is the maximum sensible range at which one would consider using the subject calibre against fox. I don't intend doing so, but am looking at a marginally heavier bullet but having similar diameter.

MTIA

[Benthejockey]

My hmr has accounted for many foxes. Shoot them in the head and they don't go anywhere. Chest shots are riskier because they will sometimes run. I shot one once and smashed both its shoulders and caught up with it 100yds later doing butterfly trying to make a swift exit. Saying that I've shot foxes with the 243 that were still alive after a solid hit but its much more incapacitating. The HMR is a super little round and knocking foxes over inside 150 yds is perfectly do able. 

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, Benthejockey said:

My hmr has accounted for many foxes. Shoot them in the head and they don't go anywhere. Chest shots are riskier because they will sometimes run. I shot one once and smashed both its shoulders and caught up with it 100yds later doing butterfly trying to make a swift exit. Saying that I've shot foxes with the 243 that were still alive after a solid hit but its much more incapacitating. The HMR is a super little round and knocking foxes over inside 150 yds is perfectly do able. 

Unless they twitch and you hit them in the jaw. Boiler room has far less room for error than a head shot with its smaller target. They may run on a little whilst the blood is pumping same as dear but are dead just the same. HMR will work well on fox but it's not ideal as a dedicated foxing round. In my view limited to 100m at night in anything other than perfect conditions.

[team tractor]

I’m not overly convinced with the hmr on fox . Yes it works but c/f all the way for me. 
I’ve heard of a red going down with a hmr in the head but I’ll never know why anyone would try that . 
ive only had fox up to 100 yards with mine and now only use cf 

[FOXHUNTER1]

If going out specifically for foxes c/f all day long but if out rabbitting and bump into a fox it's ok at sensible range.

[wymberley]

Many thanks, Guys.

I started off with 243, too much gun (although at the time I got it I was permitted the odd roe but then the estate took them in house). Went down to 223, too much gun Went down to 22 Hornet and all well. The biggest field on the farm is such that it's actually named after its size  - 16 Acres - which will give a clue as to what distance I shoot fox. Only 2 over 175 yards - 185 and 210 with sub 150 in the main. All in all, the answers given agree with my thoughts. Over the years I've come to the conclusion that for engine room kills (not too keen on head shots at night) 160 ft/lbs is the minimum acceptable (only really applies to the smaller calibres) to me taking all things into account - it's not just energy that kills. I might be forced to downsize again (weight) and I do have a WSM which I figured might be good for 175 yards maximum. It looks as though that's about right.

[Walker570]

I only use my 17HMR for small vermin and as said above use a centre fire for foxes, usually my 22BR but not averse to the 257 Wildcat or even the 7 -30 Waters. Dead is dead.

However if you keep to under 100 yrds and have a perect chest shot side to side then the 17HMR will do sufficent damamge to kill the fox.  In addition, as I will be tonight, in difficult places e.g farm yards, where a fox is causing problems and a safe background is available the 17HMR is perfect, it then becomes a precision tool.

 

If you have not already laid out for a 17HMR or have a facility to put another light recoiling rifle on your ticket, look at a 17 Remington, or even a 22 Hornet/ K Hornet.  The 17 Rem is a serious fox killer out to 250 yrds and like the HMR is very accurate. Downside you may have to reload your own.

[wymberley]

6 hours ago, Walker570 said:

I only use my 17HMR for small vermin and as said above use a centre fire for foxes, usually my 22BR but not averse to the 257 Wildcat or even the 7 -30 Waters. Dead is dead.

However if you keep to under 100 yrds and have a perect chest shot side to side then the 17HMR will do sufficent damamge to kill the fox.  In addition, as I will be tonight, in difficult places e.g farm yards, where a fox is causing problems and a safe background is available the 17HMR is perfect, it then becomes a precision tool.

 

If you have not already laid out for a 17HMR or have a facility to put another light recoiling rifle on your ticket, look at a 17 Remington, or even a 22 Hornet/ K Hornet.  The 17 Rem is a serious fox killer out to 250 yrds and like the HMR is very accurate. Downside you may have to reload your own.

Prefer the 22 Hornet. The 50g bullet when home loaded gives just a couple of ft/lbs below the 17 Remington.

[WalkedUp]

Happily accounted for many head shot foxes with the .17hmr. If you are going out foxing then it is not the best round but it is capable when needed to 100m, assuming the marksman can put it on the money. 

[Walker570]

As above, the 17HMR got the problem fox in the farm yard last night,  where precision and absolute care was taken as the area contained over 200 cattle.  Great little cartridge for these situations.

Agree , the Hornet, whether standard or the K version are excellent cartridges and will do the job.

[Benthejockey]

Have you thought WMR? Heavier 22 bullet compared to the 17hmr but winging along. "old fashioned" so cheap to buy and feed. And you've got the option of semi auto if you feel so inclined. But still a rim fire so no significant recoil. I've never shot one but one day will probably get one just because....oh that's not good reason, I'll have to think of one 😂

[wymberley]

55 minutes ago, Benthejockey said:

Have you thought WMR? Heavier 22 bullet compared to the 17hmr but winging along. "old fashioned" so cheap to buy and feed. And you've got the option of semi auto if you feel so inclined. But still a rim fire so no significant recoil. I've never shot one but one day will probably get one just because....oh that's not good reason, I'll have to think of one 😂

Yep, Anschutz and Ruger back in the day when the RWS 40g ran at 2020 and the 50g Federal  1650 ft/sec. Recoil is not a problem, never has been. My problem is the pain from the rheumatoid arthritis. I can pick up the 12lb Hornet and put it down. Handling to clean it is often agony. As already said my range requirement is limited and at the time I got it, the Hornet was possibly the best choice for the distances involved. Then came the WSM and I got one, little did I (not to mention everyone else) realise or expect  the problem with lack of ammo choice. The AUW of the WSM is 10lbs and is more compact (the Hornet barrel is 26") and I can handle it without too much trouble. I'm going to give it another go in a couple of days. I got it for rabbit as well but they're few and far between at the moment so no problem. Consequently, I just need it to be good enough for engine room shots at 150 yards to 180 max. The problem that I had when I first tried it was that every so often - too often - the dashed Hornady ammo would produce a couple of fliers from what would have been an acceptable group for rabbit and I didn't't consider it purely for fox at that time.

Yep, I know the velocities given above are now 1952 and 1530 respectively.

[oowee]

How do you get on with the WSM, I am thinking accuracy and the rifle. It looks a cracking round but I tried one of the Savage rifles and was not taken with it particularly the bolt action. That said the round looks to be a perfect intermediate calibre. 

[Vince Green]

I first encountered the HMR in America shooting coyotes and it had serious shortcomings for that A "hummer" bullet is its weak link, its almost frangible, it just goes to pieces on bigger bones so a chest shot from the side is in danger of hitting the leg /shoulder area. It causes a nasty surface wound but with no penetration.

L

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Vince Green

[London Best]

Wymberley, why are you punishing yourself with ten and twelve pound rifles? My .22 Hornet weighs 5 3/4 pounds plus a 6x42 Leupold and will group handloads under half inch all day. It has killed hundreds of foxes for me.

[Vince Green]

2 minutes ago, London Best said:

Wymberley, why are you punishing yourself with ten and twelve pound rifles? My .22 Hornet weighs 5 3/4 pounds plus a 6x42 Leupold and will group handloads under half inch all day. It has killed hundreds of foxes for me.

Yes I agree, a stripped out hornet with a stainless barrel you can squirt bore foam down if cleaning is the problem sounds way better than a HMR, you still have to clean a HMR or a WSM they foul up too.

The problem of choice with HMR and WSM ammo is a British thing. Go into a gunshop in US and there is a whole row of choices. Plus mail order.

[London Best]

Stainless???

My Hornet is an old BRNO made in 1958!

[Walker570]

The 17HMR is a surgical instrument for relatively close encounters on small varmints. It certainly is not a coyote killer, they are big strong animals and deserve better. On fox here in the UK as I said previously, personally I only use it for those difficult locations as last night where I had to shoot a fox which was coming right into the centre of a large dairy farm and I had a very small area where I could shoot safely. The frangible nature of the bullet is perfect here with acres of concrete about. I planned and set up the ambush last night and right on cue the fox appeared at 20yrds in the perfect position, no time for fancy head shots, I put one right through the motor room and it ran about 20yrds and piled up at the bottom of the yard.  That is where this little round shines. If you want more then go purchase one of the centre fire 22s or a 25 calibre rifle BUT I certainly would not have used my 22Bench Rest on that fox last night, far to dangerous.  Horses for courses, tools for the job.

[wymberley]

11 hours ago, London Best said:

Wymberley, why are you punishing yourself with ten and twelve pound rifles? My .22 Hornet weighs 5 3/4 pounds plus a 6x42 Leupold and will group handloads under half inch all day. It has killed hundreds of foxes for me.

Good question with 2 answers.

In general terms, unlike a shotgun, I prefer a heavier rifle as it makes for a stable platform.

Specifically, the rifle is old and the arthritis is new and I'm having a little trouble coming to terms with it just at the moment. It. Your rifle sounds just like the one my oppo had before he got his Anschutz. As the weight - up until now has never been a problem, just an advantage, I have made use of the 26" barrel, the lack of any restriction in CoL caused by the presence of a magazine, the ability to stabilise a 50g bullet via its 1 in 14 twist rate and deliver same at 852 ft/lbs. Can yours do that? Now, I appreciate that you may not want it to, but I prefer the advantage that the ability to do so gives.

 

[London Best]

32 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Good question with 2 answers.

In general terms, unlike a shotgun, I prefer a heavier rifle as it makes for a stable platform.

Specifically, the rifle is old and the arthritis is new and I'm having a little trouble coming to terms with it just at the moment. It. Your rifle sounds just like the one my oppo had before he got his Anschutz. As the weight - up until now has never been a problem, just an advantage, I have made use of the 26" barrel, the lack of any restriction in CoL caused by the presence of a magazine, the ability to stabilise a 50g bullet via its 1 in 14 twist rate and deliver same at 852 ft/lbs. Can yours do that? Now, I appreciate that you may not want it to, but I prefer the advantage that the ability to do so gives.

 

Good comprehensive answer from you.  
Dunno is my simple answer. I have never tried a 50gr bullet. I loaded 45 and sometimes 40gr for many years until somebody suggested I try Lil’gun powder with a 35gr V-max. Groups tightened from 3/4 - 1 inch down to under 1/2 inch, velocity is 3000 FPS and I have yet to have one exit a fox. Works for me.

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

Good comprehensive answer from you.  
Dunno is my simple answer. I have never tried a 50gr bullet. I loaded 45 and sometimes 40gr for many years until somebody suggested I try Lil’gun powder with a 35gr V-max. Groups tightened from 3/4 - 1 inch down to under 1/2 inch, velocity is 3000 FPS and I have yet to have one exit a fox. Works for me.

If it's working for you then that's the end of it really. You could though search for Kent (now banned) and the 22 Hornet and the 35g V max with whom I agree 100% on this one. The starting point has to be its BC.

[wymberley]

13 hours ago, oowee said:

How do you get on with the WSM, I am thinking accuracy and the rifle. It looks a cracking round but I tried one of the Savage rifles and was not taken with it particularly the bolt action. That said the round looks to be a perfect intermediate calibre. 

Spotted this. Unfortunately, Belgium is doing what Belgians do best - nothing and slowly - but will update the WSM thread on this sub-forum when I get a reply about the poor stock of Winchester ammo in the UK. Just don't hold your breath, though.

[Old farrier]

Surprised that no one has suggested the 204 

maybe worth considering