Tungsten shot

[Lloyd90]

3 hours ago, figgy said:

Same as using  other steel cartridges Lloyd.

If it contacts the mod it would damage it.

 

It's a non-starter then I assume. If lead contacts the mod on a 410 shotgun does it just bounce off because lead is softer? 

Still worth having a 410 for TSS on ducks and geese as they appear to effective.

 

Lad in my fowling club has a 3 shot OU (triple crown) in 28g, he is very impressed with it. 

[mchughcb]

I got the chiappa triple crown 20g and I'll be putting tss through it very soon

[figgy]

Think I'd rather have a 20bore semi auto or 28bore auto. The triples can feel numb and heavy unless you go for the short barrels.

Armsan or benelli 20 bore with 28bore wad inside of a 20bore wad for TSS loads, my reasoning the 20 bore can still shoot decent steel loads too.

[motty]

On 17/01/2021 at 14:59, Lloyd90 said:

Very seriously considering buying a 410 and some reloading gear. 

I wonder how a moderated 410 would work with TSS shot?  

I have put steel and heavy tungsten through my moderated 20. I don't think it has been damaged.

[mchughcb]

Got some #10 coming soon for testing. 10 yo 15 gram gram load for 40 yards should be close to ideal.

[mchughcb]

You can hurt your back not lifting this stuff correctly.

 

 

[swan40]

Can not wait to see your results . keep up the good work .

I think this could change how we think about shotguns

and thank you for sharing your hard work.

[bullet225ho]

TSS is a gamechanger for small bore shooting and No-Tox shot.

 

This is a 28ga pattern with 14gr 8.5TSS , 14gr 4 steel duplex (steel on top) patterned at 45yds. This is with an extended Cylinder choke, shot out of an Armsan Phenoma 28" barrell

 

 

What's not often understood is the lethality of this shot. Especially when comparing to steel shot.  In reality you can't compare it to steel shot as there is just too large of difference ballistically.

example.  10Tss(18g/cm3) driven at 1300fps is the equivalent of #5 (english)chilled lead and BB (english) steel shot.  So whatever the 12 bore fellows have shot with BB steel....10TSS is basically the same with a massive amount of pellets comparitavely.

Also.  T shot TSS at the same 1300fps is the equivalent of 0(SG)lead buckshot.  Where as an ounce of T has 22 pellets per ounce.  The 0(SG) has 9 pellets per ounce. 

Edited February 11, 2021 by bullet225ho

[Guest cookoff013]

1300fps mv of #9tss and #2lead are the same at 40yards.

[islandgun]

On 29/12/2020 at 16:51, Gas seal said:

Hi mchughcb you should use your loading data  , please don’t just change the shot in your commercial cartridges ,with steel wads then use packers and Mylar wraps to suit your loads .The wraps are good for adjusting the amount of space in the wad . 28grams of TSS shot will fill two thirds of a 28gauge TPS  wad and about half of a 20gauge Steel wad. . Hi island gun TSS is a game changer. The 28gauge keeps a tight pattern for a long way. The difference between 15 grams of steel and 18 grams of TSS or power shot is unbelievable. ITM shot will pattern better in 8gauge and 10gauge. TSS  and power shot will pattern better in 20 and 28gauge and the range will be as good or better than 12 gauge  . I never thought I would be able to use the 28gauge to match a magnum 12gauge. I will try 32 grams of TSS in 12gauge with the card shot cups and more open choke it could be a good load and the wads are biodegradable. The card cup wads aren’t made in small gauge because they wouldn’t hold enough shot, but would be a good wad  for 20 and 28gauge with TSS shot and they are biodegradable. It’s strange loading a 28gauge wad with more packing than shot after filling up a 10gauge wad with large size steel shot. 

Did you get chance to load any fibre cups yet ?

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, cookoff013 said:

1300fps mv of #9tss and #2lead are the same at 40yards.

Spot on for velocity, although the lead has an  Energy Density (ED) benefit of 290.4 against 267.2. The energy difference is considerable, but in view of the not great difference in ED the simple basic penetration into 20% ballistic gelatin is 4.58 against 4.32 inches in favour of the lead. Then it goes pear shaped. If you factor in the known parameters of boundary layer and threshold energy that mutates to 2.04 and 0.96 in favour of the lead again. Potentially, a dead goose and a wounded duck. The TSS 6,7 and 8 sizes are very good and it's just the 9s that don't seem to perform well.

This is not what we're hearing and I think that we need help from someone with no axe to grind. The efficacy of the tungsten is such that perhaps our previous and long held knowledge is no longer valid for this shot material. If our government is to force feed us NTS (if that is actually what tungsten is) and we're prepared to fork out for it - as is already obvious - then perhaps they can chip in and have a word with their (our) Defence Academy and see if they can come up with an unbiased assessment of its performance in order to give us a better idea of what's what that we can then take to the field and modify the findings as experience reflects.

Fortunately, I don't have to hold my breath as I'm well stocked with lead.

[rbrowning2]

As I think you may be hinting at, reports suggest tungsten is one of the Carcinogens, more science needs to be done on the various non toxic shot available to confirm the risks are really lower than using lead for both humans and wildlife.

 

[islandgun]

As I understand it, TSS is a mixture of several metals/alloys so not pure Tungsten also importantly it is approved by the USFWS as NT

[rbrowning2]

9 minutes ago, islandgun said:

As I understand it, TSS is a mixture of several metals/alloys so not pure Tungsten also importantly it is approved by the USFWS as NT

Thank you, google was useful

https://www.fws.gov/birds/bird-enthusiasts/hunting/nontoxic.php

Definition of NTS, but nothing about being harmless to humans 😊

Nontoxic shot is defined as any shot type that does not cause sickness and death when ingested by migratory birds.

 

[islandgun]

15 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Thank you, google was useful

https://www.fws.gov/birds/bird-enthusiasts/hunting/nontoxic.php

Definition of NTS, but nothing about being harmless to humans 😊

Nontoxic shot is defined as any shot type that does not cause sickness and death when ingested by migratory birds.

 

Indeed, Its hard to imagine that ingesting any metal is good for you.  Looking through the document it seems cats pose the biggest threat to birds..😉

[Gas seal]

Hi island gun yes I have loaded 12gauge with fibre shot cups and 4mm waxed over powder card. I cut the wad to 10mm from the base. The wads are very strong I have loaded bb steel in the 10gauge wad with no problem.  I have a few different cartridges to test. If I have them proofed this summer  I will send you the data. If you unroll one of your wads you will see it’s about 12 inch in length. I’ve made a few enquiries into 28gauge bio wads l will let you know if I have any luck.  Hi wymberley tss shot is very effective and difficult to compare to lead or steel. It seems to do the opposite of the rules of loading and shooting shotguns. Wild fowling would be large bore guns large shot and tight chokes to keep a pattern as far as possible. In 28gauge with no choke 2.4mm pellets it will pattern to 60 yards or more and will kill the largest breed of Canada geese. Bullet225ho is using duplex loads to open the pattern at 40 yards with lead or steel he would be trying to tighten the pattern. Ballistic gel is good for comparing the same size and type of pellets ,but a large steel pellet or a small heavy pellet hitting a Canada goose the smaller heavy pellets will penetrate a lot further. I think mchughbc is loading to kill fox ,it would be bb lead for fox. I don’t think tss can be compared to the way lead performs in shotguns. 

[mchughcb]

This weekend I loaded up BB and F shot in the 20 bore and tested the patterns at 50m and 70m. I also compared the patterns against a 12 bore shooting 3" 00 buck. The winner in the patterning right out to 70m was 26 grams of BB.

Unfortunately the penetration test was a washout because it got too dark and there was not enough pellets to hit the small test medium. I will try to test again at a closer range with more light.

I have no idea what the end game is but if I look at the performance of BB for animals larger than a fox or larger at 70m I think I'm there.

 

 

[Gas seal]

Hi mchughcb I’ve never seen the large shot size used. It may pattern better in cylinder chokes. The 5.5 mm will have limited pattern range the 4.5 would be better. When using large shot it’s recommended to use a cartridge length to match the chamber of the gun. This is to protect the forcing cone. The load l use is 18 grams of 2.4 at 1280 FPS . I have other loads to test. I should ask my friend to make a film when we have better weather for it. 

[wymberley]

15 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi island gun yes I have loaded 12gauge with fibre shot cups and 4mm waxed over powder card. I cut the wad to 10mm from the base. The wads are very strong I have loaded bb steel in the 10gauge wad with no problem.  I have a few different cartridges to test. If I have them proofed this summer  I will send you the data. If you unroll one of your wads you will see it’s about 12 inch in length. I’ve made a few enquiries into 28gauge bio wads l will let you know if I have any luck.  Hi wymberley tss shot is very effective and difficult to compare to lead or steel. It seems to do the opposite of the rules of loading and shooting shotguns. Wild fowling would be large bore guns large shot and tight chokes to keep a pattern as far as possible. In 28gauge with no choke 2.4mm pellets it will pattern to 60 yards or more and will kill the largest breed of Canada geese. Bullet225ho is using duplex loads to open the pattern at 40 yards with lead or steel he would be trying to tighten the pattern. Ballistic gel is good for comparing the same size and type of pellets ,but a large steel pellet or a small heavy pellet hitting a Canada goose the smaller heavy pellets will penetrate a lot further. I think mchughbc is loading to kill fox ,it would be bb lead for fox. I don’t think tss can be compared to the way lead performs in shotguns. 

I don't actually know, but do believe that you're absolutely right. Fortunately, I'm not affected but just wanted to give my step-son a steer and have concluded that he needs either the 8 or 8&1/2. By the time I'd sorted him out and had a quick number crunch just out of interest, my brain was well addled. Because of what Bullet 225 said about #10, 5 lead and steel BB all being the same I ran them at the 600 ft/sec  using the figures for 20% gelatin but with no adjustments and got TSS 3.32 " at 49 yards, lead 5 3.13" at 47 yards and steel BB 3.46" at 69 yards. Ran again using the recognised boundary layer and as on the face of it these were a potential duck load, the 0.4 ftlb threshold figure which then gave 0.99, 1.6 and 2.1 respectively. This put paid to the TSS. Just to wrap it up I then guessed figuring that the TSS may not carry the full boundary figure so dropped it down to one third and also halved the threshold figure which changed things to 2.14". That's me now done with it and I'm going for a lie down in a darkened room.

[Guest cookoff013]

6 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi mchughcb I’ve never seen the large shot size used. It may pattern better in cylinder chokes. The 5.5 mm will have limited pattern range the 4.5 would be better. When using large shot it’s recommended to use a cartridge length to match the chamber of the gun. This is to protect the forcing cone. The load l use is 18 grams of 2.4 at 1280 FPS . I have other loads to test. I should ask my friend to make a film when we have better weather for it. 

Guys in the states managed to get buckshot 00. Silly stuff.

[mchughcb]

No problem getting 00 buck but its not optimal for my 20G but I could start using in my 12G I suppose. 

10 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi mchughcb I’ve never seen the large shot size used. It may pattern better in cylinder chokes. The 5.5 mm will have limited pattern range the 4.5 would be better. When using large shot it’s recommended to use a cartridge length to match the chamber of the gun. This is to protect the forcing cone. The load l use is 18 grams of 2.4 at 1280 FPS . I have other loads to test. I should ask my friend to make a film when we have better weather for it. 

Well I suppose it depends. I'm only mucking about for curiosity. The 5.5mm TSS experiment is still getting more pellets in the 30" circle at 50m than the 00buckshot x 15 pellets with a lot less kick.

[islandgun]

On 13/02/2021 at 22:51, Gas seal said:

Hi island gun yes I have loaded 12gauge with fibre shot cups and 4mm waxed over powder card. I cut the wad to 10mm from the base. The wads are very strong I have loaded bb steel in the 10gauge wad with no problem.  I have a few different cartridges to test. If I have them proofed this summer  I will send you the data. If you unroll one of your wads you will see it’s about 12 inch in length. I’ve made a few enquiries into 28gauge bio wads l will let you know if I have any luck.  Hi wymberley tss shot is very effective and difficult to compare to lead or steel. It seems to do the opposite of the rules of loading and shooting shotguns. Wild fowling would be large bore guns large shot and tight chokes to keep a pattern as far as possible. In 28gauge with no choke 2.4mm pellets it will pattern to 60 yards or more and will kill the largest breed of Canada geese. Bullet225ho is using duplex loads to open the pattern at 40 yards with lead or steel he would be trying to tighten the pattern. Ballistic gel is good for comparing the same size and type of pellets ,but a large steel pellet or a small heavy pellet hitting a Canada goose the smaller heavy pellets will penetrate a lot further. I think mchughbc is loading to kill fox ,it would be bb lead for fox. I don’t think tss can be compared to the way lead performs in shotguns. 

Thanks for the info, please keep us up dated on any results you get, yes i would appreciate any data..👍

[roughshooter]

I did some testing many years ago when TSS first came along.

it was 4mm but only 15 rather than 18. I loaded some up in Remington 10ga cases with the brown precision TUPRW wads along with a Mylar wrap.

The loads were 2oz with packers and buffer. A mate patterned them at 85 yards and the pattern was still tight. The scary part was that the pellets all penetrated the one inch board that the paper plate was attached to.....

I have since bought some TSS18 7’s but not done anything with them yet. 
I will proof a few loads over the summer

[bullet225ho]

roughshooter,

Those HW-15 4mm shot where packing a punch to say the least.  if you where getting 1300fps out of the load they had just over 3.5inches of gel penetration at 85yrds.  This would be the equivalent of 5.33mm lead shot at the same distance.

Just for giggles.  The #7 TSS I'm assuming 2.31mm   If pushed at 1300fps will get you 2.52in of gel penetration at 50yds.

Which is equivalent to 3.81mm lead or 5.33mm steel (American TT)  

All from KPY ballistics.

 

 

[Gas seal]

Hi the early tss type shot was heavy shot and power shot. I’m still loading the last of it. The 4mm in 10gauge  is good. I still use some 3.5mm in 20gauge. The shot in the photo is power shot on the left and hevi shot on the right. In the 80s or 90s l was out shooting crows and a elderly man came across and gave me boxes of Russian cartridges AAA shot. They were very powerful. I patterned them on the side of a old trailer at the back of the farm, it was about a two foot pattern at about 40 yards. My brother took some on a fowling trip, the geese he shot were not good for the table.