National Game Dealers Association statement on lead free ammunition

[rbrowning2]

6 hours ago, Fellside said:

I am as dismayed and troubled by the creep towards non-lead as anyone else. However I thought I’d throw in a ‘positive’ here in amongst all the doom and gloom. That is to say the Danish and American experiences with steel have been reasonably good. They are still enjoying their shooting and have made all the necessary adjustments. Having said that, they mainly use semi-autos, so recoil with heavyish steel loads is not such a factor. Perhaps in time (and I’m not suggesting tomorrow) we will transition away from fine guns and embrace the semi-auto culture and safety practices. So ends my crystal ball gazing for now (??).....just food for thought. 

The Americans work to SAAMI not CIP like we do so they can obtain faster velocity with steel shot and steel need to be driven fast to make up for its lack of pellet mass. Yes you can go up two sizes in shot compared to lead but then you increase air friction so it loses velocity and energy quicker, so fast is better.

Denmark is mainly flat and they claim to shoot wildfowl within 25yards and other game within 30yards.

Then we are also wanting to use biodegradable wads.

think recoil also, the faster your say 32gm of shot leaves the muzzle the greater the momentum or recoil hence semi-auto culture.

it is important when comparing different countries experience with non toxic to compare like with like.

 

25 minutes ago, clangerman said:

the basc claim of 70% in favour was achieved by including the lead in WITH plastic care to explain that? 

+1 people will tell you what you want to hear on a survey, especially if you ask the wrong or badly thought out questions.

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by rbrowning2

[rbrowning2]

On 02/04/2021 at 19:49, JohnfromUK said:

Metal detectors detect lead perfectly well as well as steel.

Well lead shot is about £36 for 7 Kg (Henry Cranks prices) so £ 5.15 per kilo.  https://www.henrykrank.com/lead-shot-7kg-tub.html

and steel shot is about £14.50 for 5 Kg (Shotgun reloading) so £2.90 per kilo  https://shotgunreloading.co.uk/product/steel-shot-5kg-tub/

so I'm not sure what you are trying to say?  Steel shot is a little over half the price of lead.

Clay and game is better to compare with as kranks is expensive for lead shot.

c&g. Steel £3.60 per kg lead £3.75.   But that is retail, lead can be got for £3.40 per kg from other suppliers.

Steel will go up as demand goes up especially if not enough is made and is imported from China, lead is already made in sufficient quantity within the U.K. and EU.

 

 

 

 

[clangerman]

33 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Perhaps you could email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk and we can arrange to discuss the concerns you have raised on this and various other issues over the phone?

i prefer discussing this in the open for everybody to see thanks 

[rbrowning2]

Come July 2022 then the National Game Dealers Association ( NGDA) could go bust when they cannot buy what they want then.

[8 shot]

47 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Hopefully, you have had a chance to watch the TGS video posted by others above.

Conor have you watched "The Big Green Cartridge Test" all of the so called top brands had wad defects after getting wet you don't need to be a genis to work out that our climate is to varied, and having been witness to a barrel burst at a local clay shoot a few years ago though wadding getting stuck up a barrel it makes me shudder to think this could happen when shooting alone, The gentleman was lucky not to lose two fingers. It's safety first, second, and third for me thanks very much, not £££, it's completely irresponsible of any business or organisation to put anybody at risk without many years of testing to prove these products are 110% safe, but i guess you'll come back with using lead is putting people's lives at risk, which has yet to be proven 100%. So we'll beg to differ.

[Newbie to this]

56 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC has conducted many surveys of its membership on lead ammunition over the years and we continue to do so. In a recent BASC membership survey, 70% of respondents stated “phasing out the use of lead and plastic shotgun ammunition” as either very or somewhat important.

I think that had more to do with plastic than lead, why not try another survey and keep the 2 separate 

[Fellside]

3 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

The Americans work to SAAMI not CIP like we do so they can obtain faster velocity with steel shot and steel need to be driven fast to make up for its lack of pellet mass. Yes you can go up two sizes in shot compared to lead but then you increase air friction so it loses velocity and energy quicker, so fast is better.

Denmark is mainly flat and they claim to shoot wildfowl within 25yards and other game within 30yards.

Then we are also wanting to use biodegradable wads.

think recoil also, the faster your say 32gm of shot leaves the muzzle the greater the momentum or recoil hence semi-auto culture.

it is important when comparing different countries experience with non toxic to compare like with like.

 

+1 people will tell you what you want to hear on a survey, especially if you ask the wrong or badly thought out questions.

 

There are talks under way re CIP increasing steel shot velocity limits - so we may end up with similar ballistics to our American friends. For now the two shot size increase should suffice. 
 

Re your ‘like for like’ comment, my observations were not a scientific comparison. More hopeful thinking for a positive future. Strange that you didn’t pick up on the context. I can predict one thing with accuracy however: if we do end up using steel at 1500 ft per second, I will definitely buy a semi auto. 

[Cannon]

Attitudes are changing because of lies and fear of going against the flow when it comes to anything relating to the environment. These surveys that supposedly highligh the issues caused by lead shot seem to be based on speculation and emotional responses rather than hard evidence. I'd be interested to know Conor just how many members the BASC has lost over the last couple of years? The shooting organisations have previously fought legislative change and anti propaganda, but they have opened a new battlefront with their own members recently.

I don't profess to know a lot about the ins and outs of politics surrounding shooting in this part of the world, but I do know the type of response I would like to see from our shooting organisations when ANY aspect of shooting sports gets threatened. Think Americans defending their second amendment rights kind of response. Burying heads in the sand and waiting to see how things pan out is no use to anyone. 

[matone]

7 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

I think that had more to do with plastic than lead, why not try another survey and keep the 2 separate 

That wouldn`t suit their agenda !!!!!!

[8 shot]

WOW... just listened to the Guns On Pegs Podcast with Mark James of Gamebore refreshingly honest i thought, probarbly the conversation the BASC etc. should have had first, what a complete slash up they've made of this. The BASC, NGO. etc. have shown they are way out of there depth on this. Proper in depth conversations and research was needed WITH knowledgeable people and businesses who actually know there business. The organisations have shown that they are ill informed and are probarbly not worth there place at the table of any further conversations on this, and I hate to say it any other big decisions that may impacts the future of your sport.

 

[wymberley]

13 hours ago, Fellside said:

There are talks under way re CIP increasing steel shot velocity limits - so we may end up with similar ballistics to our American friends. For now the two shot size increase should suffice. 
 

Re your ‘like for like’ comment, my observations were not a scientific comparison. More hopeful thinking for a positive future. Strange that you didn’t pick up on the context. I can predict one thing with accuracy however: if we do end up using steel at 1500 ft per second, I will definitely buy a semi auto. 

Is that up two or is it up three sizes from lead?

[JohnfromUK]

30 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Guns On Pegs Podcast with Mark James of Gamebore

Just a correction for anyone searching for it - It is Paul James of Gamebore

[Fellside]

18 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Is that up two or is it up three sizes from lead?

I have been advised (I’m far from being a steel shot expert) - that steel is already one size larger than UK shot, being Euro / USA sized. As its already one size bigger, the next size up from our lead should work ...... apparently (??). I intend to experiment and find out for myself - if pressed in to using  the stuff. 

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

I have been advised (I’m far from being a steel shot expert) - that steel is already one size larger than UK shot, being Euro / USA sized. As its already one size bigger, the next size up from our lead should work ...... apparently (??). I intend to experiment and find out for myself - if pressed in to using  the stuff. 

It's very easy to get to cross purposes here. It may well be unnecessary to match the performance of steel to that of lead on the grounds that you only need what you need. However, if you do need to match the figures for whatever reason, you'll find that you need to go up two sizes from the American sizing - three sizes from the English.

 

 

[Fellside]

26 minutes ago, wymberley said:

It's very easy to get to cross purposes here. It may well be unnecessary to match the performance of steel to that of lead on the grounds that you only need what you need. However, if you do need to match the figures for whatever reason, you'll find that you need to go up two sizes from the American sizing - three sizes from the English.

 

 

I see Wymberley, understand your logic there, and thanks for your contribution. I have to say I’m only taking on board the lessons of others and the various commentators. As mentioned I have little or no experiential learning re steel shot. Been putting it off as long as possible.

Did see an interesting video recently, where a chap switched from lead 5s to steel 4s (UK 3s) on a high pheasant day. He was achieving some impressive clean kills I have to say. Difficult to really appreciate the range on these videos however. Anyhow, I’m sure we’ll manage to continue shooting - if lead is prized out of our hands. Later rather than sooner preferably.....?!

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

I see Wymberley, understand your logic there, and thanks for your contribution. I have to say I’m only taking on board the lessons of others and the various commentators. As mentioned I have little or no experiential learning re steel shot. Been putting it off as long as possible.

Did see an interesting video recently, where a chap switched from lead 5s to steel 4s (UK 3s) on a high pheasant day. He was achieving some impressive clean kills I have to say. Difficult to really appreciate the range on these videos however. Anyhow, I’m sure we’ll manage to continue shooting - if lead is prized out of our hands. Later rather than sooner preferably.....?!

Good thinking. 

If you find your resolve weakening, in the example I gave I used UK 6s and steel 4s (UK 3s) and the steel carried slightly more energy. But two other figures which should put the lead back in your pencil - lead, 170 and the steel, 124. Look up Energy Density.

[Fellside]

2 hours ago, wymberley said:

Good thinking. 

If you find your resolve weakening, in the example I gave I used UK 6s and steel 4s (UK 3s) and the steel carried slightly more energy. But two other figures which should put the lead back in your pencil - lead, 170 and the steel, 124. Look up Energy Density.

Cheers Wymberley 👍 

[matone]

6 hours ago, 8 shot said:

WOW... just listened to the Guns On Pegs Podcast with Mark James of Gamebore refreshingly honest i thought, probarbly the conversation the BASC etc. should have had first, what a complete slash up they've made of this. The BASC, NGO. etc. have shown they are way out of there depth on this. Proper in depth conversations and research was needed WITH knowledgeable people and businesses who actually know there business. The organisations have shown that they are ill informed and are probarbly not worth there place at the table of any further conversations on this, and I hate to say it any other big decisions that may impacts the future of your sport.

 

Yep,exposed for what they are not....

[Jim Neal]

18 hours ago, Cannon said:

I'd be interested to know Conor just how many members the BASC has lost over the last couple of years?

I phoned up and cancelled my membership with immediate effect when the lead shot debacle happened last year.  I feel utterly betrayed and disgusted by them.

[stagboy]

11 hours ago, matone said:

Yep,exposed for what they are not....

This is the same Gamebore Cartridge Company Ltd, company number 01181347, whose "strategic report" filed with its accounts at Companies House for the year ending December 31, 2018, highlights the legislative risks to lead and stated: "Gamebore has been at the forefront for the past 25 years in alternative non-toxic/biodegradeable products, and we remain committed to investing in the future to continue the business success the company has reported. This report was approved by the board of director and signed on 3 September 2019 and signed on behalf of the board by: PD James,  Director." Remember, that was for the year ending December 2018.

The strategic report in Gamebore's most recently filed accounts, for 2019 (signed off on 21 September 2020) repeats much the same forward-looking sentiments about the company's investment in non-toxic alternatives, and burbles about the  new Bio Wad and Quad Seal components.  (Oh - and the profit before tax was £2.3 million, slightly higher than the year before.) 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, stagboy said:

This is the same Gamebore Cartridge Company Ltd, company number 01181347, whose "strategic report" filed with its accounts .......

To be fair - much of that is repeated in the recording - but it is also made clear that the transition is not an easy one.  The difficulty with the wad being the biggest challenge.  They believe they have fairly good solutions with steel and plastic wads, but not fibre, not 2 1/2 inch, not extreme 'high bird' and not fully bio degradeable. 

Among the problems;

• Leaving traditional plastic for the cup wad and replacing it with
• something that can be stored for long periods, but will decay harmlessly after use
• Making/moulding these in vast quantities
• Steel being lighter needs higher velocity - so more pressure, so cannot readily be achieved within CIP proof rules
• Tungsten and bismuth are inherently expensive materials

It is fair that they have developed steel loads and bio degradables - but (not yet anyway) to suit all users and all guns.  The transition from the present quite limited use of steel to the vast majority using steel is a massive change.  I can't say that Gamebore are the leader, but that have not been idle (and I am not actually a Gamebore user).

[matone]

25 minutes ago, stagboy said:

This is the same Gamebore Cartridge Company Ltd, company number 01181347, whose "strategic report" filed with its accounts at Companies House for the year ending December 31, 2018, highlights the legislative risks to lead and stated: "Gamebore has been at the forefront for the past 25 years in alternative non-toxic/biodegradeable products, and we remain committed to investing in the future to continue the business success the company has reported. This report was approved by the board of director and signed on 3 September 2019 and signed on behalf of the board by: PD James,  Director." Remember, that was for the year ending December 2018.

The strategic report in Gamebore's most recently filed accounts, for 2019 (signed off on 21 September 2020) repeats much the same forward-looking sentiments about the company's investment in non-toxic alternatives, and burbles about the  new Bio Wad and Quad Seal components.  (Oh - and the profit before tax was £2.3 million, slightly higher than the year before.) 

 

 

 

 

 

I wasn`t referring to Gamebore !! The Orgs .........

[matone]

13 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

To be fair - much of that is repeated in the recording - but it is also made clear that the transition is not an easy one.  The difficulty with the wad being the biggest challenge.  They believe they have fairly good solutions with steel and plastic wads, but not fibre, not 2 1/2 inch, not extreme 'high bird' and not fully bio degradeable. 

Among the problems;

• Leaving traditional plastic for the cup wad and replacing it with
• something that can be stored for long periods, but will decay harmlessly after use
• Making/moulding these in vast quantities
• Steel being lighter needs higher velocity - so more pressure, so cannot readily be achieved within CIP proof rules
• Tungsten and bismuth are inherently expensive materials

It is fair that they have developed steel loads and bio degradables - but (not yet anyway) to suit all users and all guns.  The transition from the present quite limited use of steel to the vast majority using steel is a massive change.  I can't say that Gamebore are the leader, but that have not been idle (and I am not actually a Gamebore user).

I hope that we get the chance to try the loads exhibited by Ettiene Vouzelaud in his video on The World Gunmakers Virtual Event in the UK. They look the answer for many of us who want to shoot traditional  and classic guns using steel or other hard shot in future.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, matone said:

I hope that we get the chance to try the loads exhibited by Ettiene Vouzelaud in his video on The World Gunmakers Virtual Event in the UK. They look the answer for many of us who want to shoot traditional  and classic guns using steel or other hard shot in future.

I haven't seen those.  I remain hopeful that something suitable will emerge.  I have no need for an 'extreme high bird' cartridge and would happily reign in my expectations for range from say 40 yards to 35 yards (under which the vast majority of my shots are anyway) to continue with my nice old guns.

[matone]

Google the video ,its most interesting!!