Fully vaccinated to dominate deaths - allegedly

[Dave-G]

8 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said:

So you'll engage with the questions, but not the answers? That is how conspiracies get so much traction. People refuse to listen to the answers they claim to be wanting. 

Like the crazies who refuse to admit Trump lost.

'FRAUD!' 'SHOW US THE FRAUD!!!'

'Look, here's the evidence there is no fraud.'
'...SHOW US THE FRAUD!!!'

I can't explain it any better without baring my soul even further Chris... which would only serve to derail the thread even more too. I've been thinking about leaving the forum because I can't express myself as well as I'd like and then get embarrassed at feeling a need to say why.

[12gauge82]

I'm certainly not anti vaccine at all. What concerns me however is that they have removed the ability to take legal action against the pharma company's in relation to the vaccines. If they're as safe as they're saying, why? 

[Jim Neal]

39 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

What concerns me however is that they have removed the ability to take legal action against the pharma company's in relation to the vaccines. If they're as safe as they're saying, why? 

Look at it from a different angle.

Let's say you run a pharmaceutical company.  You get the opportunity to produce what could be a ground-breaking new development in the field of immunisation.  The only catch is that the urgency to roll out this product means that the timescale of testing must be massively expedited, to meet the mission briefing.

In order to accept the challenge, you'd want to add a caveat wouldn't you?  You'd want to at least cover your backside to a certain degree?  After all, the number of participants in a trial is one thing but it's the pure length of time which is the missing factor in the testing.

I think, to oil the wheels, the government has written in this "no comeback" clause to get the pharma companies to take the plunge and do it, otherwise they'd all just sit on the safe side of the fence.

[12gauge82]

27 minutes ago, Jim Neal said:

Look at it from a different angle.

Let's say you run a pharmaceutical company.  You get the opportunity to produce what could be a ground-breaking new development in the field of immunisation.  The only catch is that the urgency to roll out this product means that the timescale of testing must be massively expedited, to meet the mission briefing.

In order to accept the challenge, you'd want to add a caveat wouldn't you?  You'd want to at least cover your backside to a certain degree?  After all, the number of participants in a trial is one thing but it's the pure length of time which is the missing factor in the testing.

I think, to oil the wheels, the government has written in this "no comeback" clause to get the pharma companies to take the plunge and do it, otherwise they'd all just sit on the safe side of the fence.

And it's exactly that which is of concern. 

If your a young, healthy, fit young person the liklihood of anything more than a bit of a cold from corona 19 is fairly low. The odds of any serious negative long term effects from one of the vaccines appears to be very low, but it isn't non exsistant or they wouldn't have a legal caveat. 

So someone under 50 might very well come to a logical conclusion that if they don't take a vaccine, there's no risk on that front. And the risks from corona is also minimal, that's if they even catch it at all as it might very well be under control by the time a vaccine is offered. 

Which depending how people view their own personal risk perception, could lead some to decide they're better off without the vaccine. 

[Jim Neal]

7 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

depending how people view their own personal risk perception, could lead some to decide they're better off without the vaccine. 

THEY might be better off.  THEY are risking no more than a few coughs and sneezes, isolation & inconvenience.... but after Aunt Betty came to visit and caught their Wu-Flu she was dead within a fortnight.  This is the whole point of it.

I think us common people massively under-appreciate the brilliance of the minds involved with immunology research.  They've been given a job..... they've done it, nailed it.  Is any vaccine risk-free?  Probably not?  I think just because the covid vaccines have been produced in a stupendously short time frame does not mean they're "unsafe" in the slightest.

[12gauge82]

12 minutes ago, Jim Neal said:

THEY might be better off.  THEY are risking no more than a few coughs and sneezes, isolation & inconvenience.... but after Aunt Betty came to visit and caught their Wu-Flu she was dead within a fortnight.  This is the whole point of it.

I think us common people massively under-appreciate the brilliance of the minds involved with immunology research.  They've been given a job..... they've done it, nailed it.  Is any vaccine risk-free?  Probably not?  I think just because the covid vaccines have been produced in a stupendously short time frame does not mean they're "unsafe" in the slightest.

Your of course right, the odds on vaccines being generally very safe is extremely high, but not 100%(is anything in life). 

Just looking at it logically I can understand some of the young being reluctant to take the vaccine, although the other side of that is by taking the vaccine your also protecting everyone else. 

[Scully]

6 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

And it's exactly that which is of concern. 

If your a young, healthy, fit young person the liklihood of anything more than a bit of a cold from corona 19 is fairly low. The odds of any serious negative long term effects from one of the vaccines appears to be very low, but it isn't non exsistant or they wouldn't have a legal caveat. 

So someone under 50 might very well come to a logical conclusion that if they don't take a vaccine, there's no risk on that front. And the risks from corona is also minimal, that's if they even catch it at all as it might very well be under control by the time a vaccine is offered. 

Which depending how people view their own personal risk perception, could lead some to decide they're better off without the vaccine. 

They won’t always be under 50. I’ll admit that by the time they’re of a vulnerable age, the efficacy of the vaccine may have improved tremendously, but we may also have multiple variants of the vaccine to cope with by then also. 🤷‍♂️
The risks will always be there; just have a look at the list of possible side effects which comes with every packet of Ibuprofen or Paracetamol. Thoroughly researched and tested, but there’s still that risk. 

[Mungler]

Did anyone look at the main webby where the anti Covid vaccine doctors’ letter came from?

https://doctors4covidethics.medium.com

It is seriously mouth frothing anti Covid vaccine stuff - zero balance and a very distinctive and strong whiff of ‘nuts’.

So, I also looked at the list of names on the letter that was sent - not as impressive as the titles may suggest. Signed by an osteopath for example.

Bottom line, who cares? It’s irrelevant now - the UK alone has rolled out 40 million jabs and so that horse has long since bolted. Also if you read their musings, what sort of level of danger / real world effect are we talking about? A 5% issue would be 2,000,000 on the door step of their GP / A&E department and that of course hasn’t happened or maybe it has but the media have been controlled into not reporting it etc etc 

[oscarsdad]

42 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Did anyone look at the main webby where the anti Covid vaccine doctors’ letter came from?

https://doctors4covidethics.medium.com

It is seriously mouth frothing anti Covid vaccine stuff - zero balance and a very distinctive and strong whiff of ‘nuts’.

So, I also looked at the list of names on the letter that was sent - not as impressive as the titles may suggest. Signed by an osteopath for example.

Bottom line, who cares? It’s irrelevant now - the UK alone has rolled out 40 million jabs and so that horse has long since bolted. Also if you read their musings, what sort of level of danger / real world effect are we talking about? A 5% issue would be 2,000,000 on the door step of their GP / A&E department and that of course hasn’t happened or maybe it has but the media have been controlled into not reporting it etc etc 

Don’t get my started on osteopaths - made up nonsense without medical training and very often have links to anti-vax / “alternative medicine” / absolute nonsense with no scientific basis and people are daft enough to pay them to perform their rituals. 

[serrac]

12 hours ago, chrisjpainter said:

What aspersions have I cast on his character? I've shown him to be unreliable in his convictions. I've shown that he's made obvious mistakes in predictions, and how his claims have not been backed up by empirical evidence. I've not gone into his character at all. I've made hypotheses about the reasons for his wildly contrasting opinions, but I've also expressed sympathy for his apparent pharmaceutical downfall.

What's your response to the obvious contradictions and shortcomings in his statements? 

Well, there's "He may just be incredibly bitter. "
So he's willing to warn people away from the vaccines to the risk of their lives because he has a grudge against Pfizer?

There have been numerous contradictions and shortcomings in the statements coming from official sources yet it seems we are expected to accept them without question.

Personally I'm willing to consider what anyone has to say and let it stand on it's own merits - gaslighting notwithstanding.

10 hours ago, chrisjpainter said:

 

COVID-19 vaccines questions (europa.eu) 

Is the response available on Doctors for Covid Ethics' website? I looked and couldn't find it, which is why I got it straight from the European Medicines Agency

 

Well the response to the response is there:
https://home.solari.com/rebuttal-letter-to-european-medicines-agency-ema-from-doctors-for-covid-ethics/

[Mungler]

That’s proper frothy nutty stuff - they’re accusing the medical authorities of genocide.

It must be the case that there’s a global conspiracy to suppress reporting adverse vaccine effects because with probably near a billion shots deployed globally one would expect to be seeing the bodies from the genocide by now.

 

[serrac]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Did anyone look at the main webby where the anti Covid vaccine doctors’ letter came from?

https://doctors4covidethics.medium.com

It is seriously mouth frothing anti Covid vaccine stuff - zero balance and a very distinctive and strong whiff of ‘nuts’.

So, I also looked at the list of names on the letter that was sent - not as impressive as the titles may suggest. Signed by an osteopath for example.

Gasllighting...

The website makes no bones about their position - what "balance" would you expect them to provide?
Why don't you provide some examples of scientifically incorrect information on there for our education?

 

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Bottom line, who cares? It’s irrelevant now - the UK alone has rolled out 40 million jabs and so that horse has long since bolted. Also if you read their musings, what sort of level of danger / real world effect are we talking about? A 5% issue would be 2,000,000 on the door step of their GP / A&E department and that of course hasn’t happened or maybe it has but the media have been controlled into not reporting it etc etc 

I care...

My daughter developed epilepsy a few months after receiving the Gardisil Vaccine.
Was that the cause?  I guess we'll never know but you can be sure the official position is "of course not - don't be silly".

Will the covid vaccine exacerbate her epilepsy?
Will it make her infertile?
Of course not - don't be silly...

[Mungler]

A billion jabs out the door already.

Time will tell.

[serrac]

7 minutes ago, Mungler said:

That’s proper frothy nutty stuff

More gaslighting
Ever consider why so many

 

10 minutes ago, Mungler said:

It must be the case that there’s a global conspiracy to suppress reporting adverse vaccine effects because with probably near a billion shots deployed globally one would expect to be seeing the bodies from the genocide by now.

You wouldn't expect them to shout it from the rooftops would you?
After all - every vaccine ever produced is 100% safe and effective...

On the other hand there are a number of reports of a significant increase in "covid" deaths following the rollout of the vaccine in various locations around the world.

[Mungler]

My acme nutty-anti-vaxer-o’meter has just hit a strong 9.

You have a great day sir 😆

Edited May 20, 2021 by Mungler

[chrisjpainter]

6 hours ago, serrac said:

Well, there's "He may just be incredibly bitter. "
So he's willing to warn people away from the vaccines to the risk of their lives because he has a grudge against Pfizer?

There have been numerous contradictions and shortcomings in the statements coming from official sources yet it seems we are expected to accept them without question.

Personally I'm willing to consider what anyone has to say and let it stand on it's own merits - gaslighting notwithstanding.

Well the response to the response is there:
https://home.solari.com/rebuttal-letter-to-european-medicines-agency-ema-from-doctors-for-covid-ethics/

I didn't say he was, I said he might be - and gave evidence as to why. Character assassination is a direct assault on the person's character; my attack is on his  apparently contradictory statements and the timing of them.  Bitterness as a by-product is a reasonable hypothesis to make because it's based on fact. He left Pfizer, and started up something new, only to see a potential career defining moment ignominiously fall flat (to the tune of $485m), only to see Pfizer succeed where he'd failed. That's a fairly good reason as to why someone might be bitter. That coincides with his rather bizarre opinion change and his sudden full retirement.

All the information they've asked for is there as well as the clinical research of the vaccines. They're at the bottom in the links. They've done exactly as I alluded to with Trump's followers asking for the evidence of fraud.

SHOW US THE EVIDENCE!!!
'Here. mRNA's taken up at the injection site, it doesn't pass into the endothelial cells, so isn't passed around the body. The immune system isn't compromised and the data are available.'

'...SHOW US THE EVIDENCE!!!'

Usual Twisty-turny conspiracy theorist plan. Refuse to listen, then demand drastic action, then say refusal to is killing people/abuse of human rights...

Or they do what you've done which is twist the narrative so it looks like the other side is the manipulator:

'After all - every vaccine ever produced is 100% safe and effective...' Don't be one of those people; it's boring:
Vaccine Safety: Are Vaccines Safe? | Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (chop.edu)

U.S. Vaccine Safety - Overview, History, and How It Works | CDC

Efficacy and effectiveness | Immunisation Advisory Centre (immune.org.nz)

Top 20 Questions about Vaccination | History of Vaccines

I could go on and on and on showing how it's not claimed they're 100% safe. All of the above specifically use that description. Vaccines are safe within all reasonable parameters - and are for the vast VAST majority far better than catching the disease against which it's fighting. 

 

 

6 hours ago, Mungler said:

My acne nutty-anti-vaxer-o’meter has just hit a strong 9.

You have a great day sir 😆

How high does it go? Stick around, we may yet get it all the way up to 11

Edited May 20, 2021 by chrisjpainter

[12gauge82]

7 hours ago, Scully said:

They won’t always be under 50. I’ll admit that by the time they’re of a vulnerable age, the efficacy of the vaccine may have improved tremendously, but we may also have multiple variants of the vaccine to cope with by then also. 🤷‍♂️
The risks will always be there; just have a look at the list of possible side effects which comes with every packet of Ibuprofen or Paracetamol. Thoroughly researched and tested, but there’s still that risk. 

All good points. 

On a tangent, if someone had told me a couple of years ago we'd all soon be in lock down while the whole world got vaccinated to fight a global pandemic, I'd definitely have called them nuts 😂

[mel b3]

33 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

All good points. 

On a tangent, if someone had told me a couple of years ago we'd all soon be in lock down while the whole world got vaccinated to fight a global pandemic, I'd definitely have called them nuts 😂

Ain't that the truth . Nobody saw this one coming .

[Dave-G]

9 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

Ain't that the truth . Nobody saw this one coming .

And little wonder there's been so many theories about it, mainly I think due to Chinese secrecy.

[chrisjpainter]

Just now, Dave-G said:

And little wonder there's been so many theories about it, mainly I think due to Chinese secrecy.

Indeed so. And If people think there's a knowledge or fact gap that someone is constantly refusing to fill, others will do the filling for them and that's when it gets sticky!

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

Nobody saw this one coming .

In fact, there has been a long standing concern of an epidemic/pandemic - and no one quite knew what form it would take, or when it would come.  Before I retired we had a 'Business Continuity' panel in the company for whom I worked.  The idea of this was to look at the risks to the business and have plans in place to continue to support customers and staff in the event of a disaster happening.  It is a common practice and we were a part of a large American corporation and had to submit this to our masters in New York annually.  Typical events included;

• Fire
• Flood
• Storm/Tornado
• Earthquake (it was a worldwide company!)
• Power/Utility failures (Electricity, Water, Drainage, Gas)
• Epidemic
• Data loss/corruption

We had contingency plans in place and the epidemic was considered one of the more 'probable' occurrences, based on a virus similar to Spanish Flu.

In fact, in my time there, the only major one we had was a prolonged water supply failure (pumping station out locally) and we had portaloos and bottled drinking water in place within 24 hours (about 300 employees).

Epidemic plans (if I remember right) included widespread working from home and disinfection/isolation procedures - plus a NO VISITOR policy.

I think most major businesses have similar plans in place.

 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

All good points. 

On a tangent, if someone had told me a couple of years ago we'd all soon be in lock down while the whole world got vaccinated to fight a global pandemic, I'd definitely have called them nuts 😂

Weird isn’t it? Whenever there is the notion of a virus of some sort spreading around the world, my first reaction has always been...’No, couldn’t happen in this day and age, with all the science and tech’ we have.’ 
When it first appeared in the news I just thought it would peter out like all the others, and never amount to anything too serious. Never thought for a second we’d be where we are now. 

[mel b3]

30 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

In fact, there has been a long standing concern of an epidemic/pandemic - and no one quite knew what form it would take, or when it would come.  Before I retired we had a 'Business Continuity' panel in the company for whom I worked.  The idea of this was to look at the risks to the business and have plans in place to continue to support customers and staff in the event of a disaster happening.  It is a common practice and we were a part of a large American corporation and had to submit this to our masters in New York annually.  Typical events included;

• Fire
• Flood
• Storm/Tornado
• Earthquake (it was a worldwide company!)
• Power/Utility failures (Electricity, Water, Drainage, Gas)
• Epidemic
• Data loss/corruption

We had contingency plans in place and the epidemic was considered one of the more 'probable' occurrences, based on a virus similar to Spanish Flu.

In fact, in my time there, the only major one we had was a prolonged water supply failure (pumping station out locally) and we had portaloos and bottled drinking water in place within 24 hours (about 300 employees).

Epidemic plans (if I remember right) included widespread working from home and disinfection/isolation procedures - plus a NO VISITOR policy.

I think most major businesses have similar plans in place.

 

In a previous life , i worked for a large American automotive company . we had a plan for everything , from a spilled cup of coffee in the canteen , and a named person that was responsible for cleaning the mess up , to Armageddon. 

i now work for a local authority , that gets information fed directly from government . we have a contingency plan for every eventuality . the plan is ,  whatever the eventuality , you put your blinkers on , put your fingers in your ears , and carry on like nothings changed .

10 minutes ago, Scully said:

Weird isn’t it? Whenever there is the notion of a virus of some sort spreading around the world, my first reaction has always been...’No, couldn’t happen in this day and age, with all the science and tech’ we have.’ 
When it first appeared in the news I just thought it would peter out like all the others, and never amount to anything too serious. Never thought for a second we’d be where we are now. 

this .

i watched events unfold in china , content that our government would never allow it to happen in this country . i knew that our borders would be tightly sealed before even a whiff of the disease reached our shores .

it all proves one thing . my knowledge of the world , and a fiver , wouldnt be enough to buy a haircut . 

[12gauge82]

5 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

In a previous life , i worked for a large American automotive company . we had a plan for everything , from a spilled cup of coffee in the canteen , and a named person that was responsible for cleaning the mess up , to Armageddon. 

i now work for a local authority , that gets information fed directly from government . we have a contingency plan for every eventuality . the plan is ,  whatever the eventuality , you put your blinkers on , put your fingers in your ears , and carry on like nothings changed .

😂😂😂

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, mel b3 said:

we had a plan for everything , from a spilled cup of coffee in the canteen , and a named person that was responsible for cleaning the mess up , to Armageddon. 

That's the sort of stuff!

I was sceptical when we were told to do it - and remained so until 2008 - when local floods (which didn't directly flood the works) caused a pumping station failure and consequent water loss - for about 3 weeks I think it was.  The plan actually worked well - and we only lost a very small number of hours.  Many other local businesses who were less well prepared had a tougher time.

Epidemic was definitely one of the subjects covered - but I tended to visualise it as large scale personnel absence due to a flu type illness sweeping through all of the staff.