Legality of vaccine passports

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, timps said:

If those now in power wanted a one world government then why did they try so hard for Brexit?

They didnt though did they?  The majority forced the issue, and it took YEARS, but thats another story.

9 minutes ago, timps said:

As for the children they will fair just the same as all the other children that have survived all the other various pandemics that appeared from nowhere throughout history.

While rare, pandemics have happened before and governments will always try and subjugate its population so it’s nothing new.

Why would governments use a naturally occurring pandemic to 'subjugate' the population, surely governments are there to look after the best interests of the people ? 😄

You say its nothing new , yet , in this case , with advanced medicine and technology, no government worldwide (beside its origin country) seemed to know what to do  about it ?
You would think, that a virus , variants of which we have known about , and vaccinated for decades, wouldnt be such a problem ?
Yet it wasnt just a problem , its an issue that requires us to fundamentally change the way we live... for ever it seems.

19 minutes ago, timps said:

I’m off to the pub tonight and I don’t have to check in, show a passport or socially distance so that’s probably  why I’m not overly worried about the illuminati, lizard overlords or world domination theory’s.

I think you live in a great place, where you can go to the pub and not check in , YET .
Where you dont need to show a passport, YET.
Im pleased to hear you arent worried about the illuminati or lizard overlords, Im not either, and why you mentioned them seems a bit odd, as no one else has ?

We ARE talking about a real issue of the erosion of freedoms , which could be a precursor to something quite sinister, that doesnt have to involve world domination either.
If the people dont realise they are no longer free , why do they need dominating ?

A state of emergency is always a great way for the powers that be to push through things that would otherwise be completely unacceptable to the great unwashed.
So when such unpalatable things need to presented, you first need to create the emergency.

A state of emergency or emergency powers is a situation in which a government is empowered to be able to put through policies that it would normally not be permitted to do, for the safety and protection of their citizens. A government can declare such a state during a natural disaster, civil unrest, armed conflict, medical pandemic or epidemic or other biosecurity risk. Justitium is its equivalent in Roman law—a concept in which the Roman Senate could put forward a final decree (senatus consultum ultimum) that was not subject to dispute yet helped save lives in times of strife.

States of emergency can also be used as a rationale or pretext for suspending rights and freedoms guaranteed under a country's constitution or basic law, sometimes through martial law or revoking habeas corpus. The procedure for and legality of doing so vary by country.

[oowee]

Some would say that it's the start of a loss of freedom that we will be, are being, forced to accept. A recognition of the shift in power from the West to the East. 

Asia and the East, particularly China have demonstrated a better handling of the whole pandemic issue. The country's approach, of state supervision and management of its people has proven effective, compared to the blundering West. At the same time China's economic rise to superior power establishes a new status quo against which the West must compete. 

Furrther fagmentation of the west with, in fighting, a lack of clarity of purpose and we have all the ingredients to follow our new emerging leaders. 

 

[timps]

51 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

They didnt though did they?  The majority forced the issue, and it took YEARS, but thats another story.

Well the current PM campaigned for Brexit before he was elected so I took it that he might of wanted it. Regardless of if that was true or not why would he try and give all his power away now he has it regardless of whether he wanted it or not in the first place.
 

51 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Why would governments use a naturally occurring pandemic to 'subjugate' the population, surely governments are there to look after the best interests of the people ? 😄

I never said they were using a pandemic I said that government try to control the population. Governments do try to do the best for the population by controlling behaviour, by punishing what they see as bad or unhealthy behaviour (fines prison or tax) and rewarding good behaviour.

53 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

You say its nothing new , yet , in this case , with advanced medicine and technology, no government worldwide (beside its origin country) seemed to know what to do  about it ?
You would think, that a virus , variants of which we have known about , and vaccinated for decades, wouldnt be such a problem ?
Yet it wasnt just a problem , its an issue that requires us to fundamentally change the way we live... for ever it seems.

Well they all agreed on vaccination the only disagreement was how to control it until the vaccine was ready. The vaccine was developed very quickly (only the clinical trials which by their very nature take time held it up).

54 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Im pleased to hear you arent worried about the illuminati or lizard overlords, Im not either, and why you mentioned them seems a bit odd, as no one else has ?

You said you were donning your tin foil helmet and talking about a one world government. The tin foil helmet brigade often state the  illuminati or lizard overlords as being instigators of this, obviously it was a flippant comment. However, someone must be controlling this drive for a one world government as I have no idea who that would be I used the illuminati lizards as a comedic place holder but will gladly insert a group or name of your choice.

56 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

We ARE talking about a real issue of the erosion of freedoms , which could be a precursor to something quite sinister, that doesnt have to involve world domination either.
If the people dont realise they are no longer free , why do they need dominating ?

You are quite right, but it doesn’t need a pandemic for that, every 5 years we stand the chance of a political landscape that could be completely bonkers and controlling. The erosion of freedom is a problem we both agree on, you can’t be trusted not to eat healthy so there is a sugar tax, you drive to much so a tax on petrol, watch too much porn you have to opt in to a ISP scheme to access adult age restricted material etc. As I said governments try to subjugate.

The bit I don’t agree is that  the pandemic was manufactured  to achieve this end.

 

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

It’s just a pandemic that has been handled…. well / best that could be expected  / dreadful … delete as appropriate to your experience.

Probably the only point which no-one can argue with. 😀

[serrac]

On 29/07/2021 at 21:06, Scully said:

Ah, with you, my apologies, I’m obviously getting my threads mixed up! 
To answer your question however, Ryan Air or your average club owner probably couldn’t care less about the NHS. Saying that, spreading the virus is obviously bad for business, and whether it’s our own government or foreign governments insisting you have a Covid passport, businesses like Ryan Air or your average nightclubs ( which have just reopened and were among the last hospitality businesses to do so ) will toe the line if they want to remain in business.

Well yes, businesses will respond to the coercion in whatever way allows them to continue to operate.  My inferred point is this:  You already established for us that the jab is not fit for purpose if the purpose is to prevent infection or tranmission.  Only a recent clear Covid test result is a (somewhat) reliable indicator that one is not infectious.  Therefore conditioning air travel or other activities on being double jabbed is not "following the science".  So one has to wonder why there seems to be a concerted drive worldwide to implement exactly that.

Actually....  Having read your reply to Vince above I think we're mostly coming from the same place - I'll shut up now 😄

[old man]

18 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The answer below is err , the answer to that very valid question...

 

FORCING someone to have a vaccine was always going to be a non starter.
Questions like 'What level of force?' Are we to hold them down and jab them ?

A better word for it , is coercion , we shall 'make' them have it , by making (normal) life as you know it impossible... 'Sorry Sir , no access to this area without your vax pass'
This is perfectly acceptable to some, it certainly isnt to me, as its the slippery downward slope to a society you wont like if you enjoy freedom.

Ill say this as I don my tin foil helmet, covid is a very convenient means to an end, if that end means a totalitarian (one world) government.
It may not be the endgame yet, but I rather see it as the test phase of a bigger pandemic, and a means of softening us up for what is to come ?

As udderly points out , the vax, and its associated consequences are an ID pass in disguise , dressed up as a necessity that never was, a convenient  answer to a disease that came from 'nowhere'
Im genuinely quite worried for how this may affect my childrens futures.

As you know we are already very, very far down the slope already?

This will never stop as it excites governments to subjugate on every possible front?

Freedoms are never bestowed nowadays, always removed?

The vaccine is meant to reduce the number of patients that block up the NHS, no doubt the printers are already running off fake forms somewhere?

Edited July 31, 2021 by old man

[Rewulf]

16 hours ago, timps said:

I never said they were using a pandemic I said that government try to control the population. Governments do try to do the best for the population by controlling behaviour, by punishing what they see as bad or unhealthy behaviour (fines prison or tax) and rewarding good behaviour.

18 hours ago, timps said:

While rare, pandemics have happened before and governments will always try and subjugate its population so it’s nothing new.

Sorry if I misunderstood, but it did seem like you said the UK have government HAVE used the pandemic, to 'subjugate' the populace, in your words 'because they always do'
You make it sound like its OK though , its not.
And. What you have just described is Chinas social credit system , you fancy a bit of China style government ?

16 hours ago, timps said:

Well they all agreed on vaccination the only disagreement was how to control it until the vaccine was ready. The vaccine was developed very quickly (only the clinical trials which by their very nature take time held it up).

What was it , 3 weeks to flatten the curve ? When no curve was even apparent at the time ?
I remember certain celebs and medical experts, telling us , before deaths were in double figures, that 'things would never be the same again'
The good professor Ferguson (lately returned after being booted for not following his own rules) telling us of half a million deaths in the UK , IF we locked down immediately.
Such clairvoyance , and then , mistake after (deliberate?) mistake ?

Yes the vaccine was developed quickly , seemingly separately by multiple pharma companies, all vying for the biggest payday in 50 years, and clinical trials ?
WE are the clinical trials .

17 hours ago, timps said:

You said you were donning your tin foil helmet and talking about a one world government.

You make it sound like a one world government is some far fetched idea ?
Its the dream of most international elites and billionaires, and a very real prospect.
Not one that will happen overnight , but something we are on that slippery slope to without a doubt.
Ill leave it up to you to decide the pros and cons of such a thing.

17 hours ago, timps said:

The tin foil helmet brigade often state the  illuminati or lizard overlords as being instigators of this, obviously it was a flippant comment.

The anti tin foil hat brigade often use these invented concepts to stifle and negate the idea that 'not all is as it seems in the world'
A sensible debate on the subject of , for example , the origins of covid, can be swiftly ended by accusing conspiracy theorists of being 'flat earthers' or 'lizard men believers' when all they have put forward is , that the virus was deliberately manufactured, which recent evidence points towards being the case.
When I put forward the observation that our government , at the very least, has taken advantage of the situation to push forward some agendas that it would never get away with in normal times, you reacted in the very predictable manner, albeit 'tongue in cheek' sort of.

17 hours ago, timps said:

The bit I don’t agree is that  the pandemic was manufactured  to achieve this end.

Why not , you seem comfortable in the knowledge that government will subjugate and control ?
They have created wars, caused famine and starvation, using a biological weapon on its own people a step too far for you ?

 

2 hours ago, old man said:

As you know we are already very, very far down the slope already?

This will never stop as it excites governments to subjugate on every possible front?

Freedoms are never bestowed nowadays, always removed?

Exactly.
Why wouldnt a government want a compliant population ?
They cost less, produce more, its just getting their compliance without the mob getting nasty.
The answer is , to achieve compliance , you need to create RELIANCE.

An easy social system (to start with) a reliance upon technology and comfort, cashless monetary system (abolishes black market, creates tax revenue, and an easy method of controlling dissent)
Couple this with a threat to safety, create an enemy , be it China, Russia , NK or a resurgent ISIS  or daesh, let a 'lethal' disease simmer in the background....Does it all sound a bit 'Hollywood' ?
The Mob wont want to play naughty if they are bombarded with reasons to behave, throw a snitchy reward system into the mix, and youve rolled the clock back to nazi/soviet era of fear.

Obviously , I hope none of this comes to pass, but we get very comfortable in our thinking that the good times will just roll and roll until we all live in Utopian harmony ?
Thats not what Im seeing in the news these days though.

[Gordon R]

The problem with the suggestion, that it is a global plan, is that you could never get one Government to agree with another. 

We can't get the Scottish or Welsh rulers to agree with Westminster. The EU can't agree with anyone. 

The UK Government would like a compliant population insofar as they are trying to do the best for the country and compliance would be the best solution. I would have to disagree with anyone who thought there was an ulterior motive.

[timps]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Sorry if I misunderstood, but it did seem like you said the UK have government HAVE used the pandemic, to 'subjugate' the populace, in your words 'because they always do'
You make it sound like its OK though , its not.
And. What you have just described is Chinas social credit system , you fancy a bit of China style government ?

Governments do control our behaviour though, it’s to what extent, you make it sound like we have ultimate freedom at the moment soon to be oppressed to the degree of China  because of a vaccine passport.
You just need to look at things that are now banned or taxed out of existence already to know our freedom is at the behest of our government.

Am I ok with it, well it’s the price of democracy, someone somewhere will try and ban a hobby / sport / pastime I like doing because it’s not to their liking or damages the environment. The trouble is there are laws and limits on other freedoms that I do agree with so I have to accept it’s the price of democracy.

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

What was it , 3 weeks to flatten the curve ? When no curve was even apparent at the time ?
I remember certain celebs and medical experts, telling us , before deaths were in double figures, that 'things would never be the same again'
The good professor Ferguson (lately returned after being booted for not following his own rules) telling us of half a million deaths in the UK , IF we locked down immediately.
Such clairvoyance , and then , mistake after (deliberate?) mistake ?

Yes the vaccine was developed quickly , seemingly separately by multiple pharma companies, all vying for the biggest payday in 50 years, and clinical trials ?
WE are the clinical trials

As I said  the only disagreement was how to control it until the vaccine was ready which is what you’ve highlighted. In my other post I also said the media  was looking for profits of doom so gave them a platform, celebrities and medical experts are not the government so you can’t really blame the government for their views however misguided.

Incompetence is not a conspiracy as I previously said how the government has done on this pandemic ranges from good to bad depending on your point of view.

Regarding big Pharma the Astra Zeneca vaccine is at cost, the others well they are companies and companies do try and tun a profit.

The clinical trials were held before approval are you saying they weren’t or would you have liked them to be longer so it could have played into your narrative that they didn’t know what they were doing and taking to long?

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

You make it sound like a one world government is some far fetched idea ?
Its the dream of most international elites and billionaires, and a very real prospect.
Not one that will happen overnight , but something we are on that slippery slope to without a doubt.
Ill leave it up to you to decide the pros and cons of such a thing.

Dreams and reality are two different things, is it possible, yes,  is it likely no I don’t think it is. What you have described is the concept of the Illuminati a secret society of elites and billionaires that have the power to control every country in the world.

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

The anti tin foil hat brigade often use these invented concepts to stifle and negate the idea that 'not all is as it seems in the world'
A sensible debate on the subject of , for example , the origins of covid, can be swiftly ended by accusing conspiracy theorists of being 'flat earthers' or 'lizard men believers' when all they have put forward is , that the virus was deliberately manufactured, which recent evidence points towards being the case.
When I put forward the observation that our government , at the very least, has taken advantage of the situation to push forward some agendas that it would never get away with in normal times, you reacted in the very predictable manner, albeit 'tongue in cheek' sort of

I’ve never said the virus didn’t escape from a lab, that could well be true I  genuinely don’t know one way or another. However, I have said the virus was not intentionally realised from a lab to create a one world government by the power of a vaccine passport.

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Why not , you seem comfortable in the knowledge that government will subjugate and control ?
They have created wars, caused famine and starvation, using a biological weapon on its own people a step too far for you ?

No but what is a step too far is that China manufactures a virus, releases it on the world just so Boris can bring in a vaccine passport with the end goal to bring in identity cards via the back door. These identity cards once issued will immediately bring the onset of a one world government somehow. Then Boris and the Chinese government once achieving their goal are now no longer in power and are answerable to this one world government.

The virus was either a mistake release from a lab or it jumped from bats not a world wide conspiracy to bring in identity cards.

Edited July 31, 2021 by timps

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

The problem with the suggestion, that it is a global plan, is that you could never get one Government to agree with another. 

We can't get the Scottish or Welsh rulers to agree with Westminster. The EU can't agree with anyone. 

Youre partly correct in that assumption Gordon, but the EU is a classic case in point of an amalgamation of countries into a bloc , first touted as a trade agreement, morphing itself into a political and sovereign entity.
NATO, another example , touted as a 'necessity' to combat Warsaw pact 'aggression' , yet ,the Warsaw pact came several years after NATO was formed.
To some extent , the WHO , stepped up to the plate to help us fight covid, again a multi national body, also a complete waste of time and resources.
There are many other examples, but the main point Im making is, over time , these smaller blocs , tend to join other blocs, and before long, there is only one ?
Its not a definite, and I think its extremely unlikely in our lifetime, but elements within upper society are striving towards this goal.

1 hour ago, timps said:

Governments do control our behaviour though, it’s to what extent,

OK , to what extent are you happy to be controlled 'for your own good' ?
Today a sugar tax , and a covid passport, maybe rewarded with some kind of social credit system.

Tomorrow , a tax on what mileage you are 'allowed' to do per year, in the form of carbon credits ?

Maybe a child tax , on how many children you can have / afford ?

A shooting tax , where only the very wealthy could afford shooting sports ?

A tax on meat and imported food, not a ban , just ,make it so its uneconomical for ordinary people ?

The list could go on ad nauseum , but the crux is , gradual erosion of basic freedoms... so slowly you barely notice, and all with good reasons, like war , disease, or 'climate' change.
Its already happening, and has been happening since the late 80s, but just lately it seems to be accelerating.

A good example is the commitment to stop producing diesel/petrol engine cars by xxxx year , do you not think that will make motoring for normal waged people more expensive, and less accessible , as fuel prices steadily climb ?
Electric cars , extremely expensive , and very finite global lithium sources , controlled by ....

1 hour ago, timps said:

Dreams and reality are two different things, is it possible, yes,  is it likely no I don’t think it is. What you have described is the concept of the Illuminati a secret society of elites and billionaires that have the power to control every country in the world.

Leave the illuminati part of it out the equation, if they did exist, its unlikely anyone would know who they were , or what they were called.
But the concept of industrial billionaires shaping government and global policy sounds implausible to you ?

1 hour ago, timps said:

The virus was either a mistake release from a lab or it jumped from bats not a world wide conspiracy to bring in identity cards.

Now I didnt really say that did I  ?
IF , it was a deliberate release, there are certain issues...

1. Its an act of war,  biological warfare , by China against pretty much the rest of the world, which wouldnt be too clever on Chinas part.

2 . Its made to LOOK like China released it, this gives the west carte blanche to use this as a pretext for virtually any measures against China , up to and including war.
This is my favoured theory.

3. The virus 'escaped' from the lab, by accident, yet barely affected Chinas economy , spread and mutated round the world , killing millions , wrecking economies, and fundamentally changed western ways of life , perhaps permanently.
The only reason China will not come clean and admit this is because it fears paying any sort of reparations ?

4. It came from a bat, which may have bitten a pangolin, which was then eaten and transferred to humans , which directly mirrors the plot of a 10 year old Hollywood film.
Its also been debunked as a theory of late , as there is literally no genetic evidence to support it.

Please feel free to add any other theories, but also be aware that covid 19 has been found in samples taken in Europe and the US in Summer 2019, many months before the theoretical patient zero found in October 19.

[timps]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

OK , to what extent are you happy to be controlled 'for your own good' ?
Today a sugar tax , and a covid passport, maybe rewarded with some kind of social credit system.

Tomorrow , a tax on what mileage you are 'allowed' to do per year, in the form of carbon credits ?

Maybe a child tax , on how many children you can have / afford ?

A shooting tax , where only the very wealthy could afford shooting sports ?

A tax on meat and imported food, not a ban , just ,make it so its uneconomical for ordinary people ?

The list could go on ad nauseum , but the crux is , gradual erosion of basic freedoms... so slowly you barely notice, and all with good reasons, like war , disease, or 'climate' change.
Its already happening, and has been happening since the late 80s, but just lately it seems to be accelerating.

A good example is the commitment to stop producing diesel/petrol engine cars by xxxx year , do you not think that will make motoring for normal waged people more expensive, and less accessible , as fuel prices steadily climb ?
Electric cars , extremely expensive , and very finite global lithium sources , controlled by ....

You have just taken my original examples added to them and reinforced my whole point so I’m not too sure what you are trying to say different to me here.

I understood your point to be that the pandemic was planned so the government could enact legislation via a state of emergency to form a one world government.

Governments give us the freedoms and unfortunately governments take some away, that has been happening since parliament was first formed. We certainly have more rights than we did 100 years ago so to say it’s the gradual erosion of basic freedoms is not quite right. If we stick to the late 80’s then we have more freedom in some areas and less in others.

To what extent am I happy, I’m not,  but the only alternatives are complete lawlessness and no taxes or we have some form of control which ultimately restricts freedoms some good some bad.

To ask you the same question what extent would you be happy?

A government that allowed everyone to do what they wanted no matter what the consequence to others?

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Leave the illuminati part of it out the equation, if they did exist, its unlikely anyone would know who they were , or what they were called.
But the concept of industrial billionaires shaping government and global policy sounds implausible to you ?

No it doesn’t but on a world wide scale in league with other billionaires to form one world government yes that does sound implausible. Billionaires tend to shape policies that affect their businesses ability to earn in their country of business or political favours in their country of residence. But them joining together to form a one world government or releasing a pandemic is something I do struggle with.

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Now I didnt really say that did I  ?
IF , it was a deliberate release, there are certain issues...

Well the thread is about vaccine passports so the next logical step was identity cards and so on to the ultimate end of what the protagonists who started the pandemic want to achieve.

Going to war against China is something no one wants to do even if your equipment and soldiers are 10 times better you are still vastly outnumbered. 

Releasing a virus that decimates your own economy just so you can pin it on China to start a war or be able to add sanctions is crazy theory.

The west has been able to sanction China on human rights / national security or an all out trade war without the need of an elaborate pandemic plan.

As to my theory, as I said, it wasn’t a premeditated thing so I am open to all versions that don’t include a premeditated action by person or persons unknown to release a pandemic on the world for political or some other gain.

[Rewulf]

On 30/07/2021 at 14:58, Rewulf said:

I'll say this as I don my tin foil helmet, covid is a very convenient means to an end, if that end means a totalitarian (one world) government.
It may not be the endgame yet, but I rather see it as the test phase of a bigger pandemic, and a means of softening us up for what is to come ?

This is what I said originally. 

 

1 hour ago, timps said:

I understood your point to be that the pandemic was planned so the government could enact legislation via a state of emergency to form a one world government

You appear to have extrapolated to something completely different. 

Notice the ? on the end? 

It's a theory, which is borne out by the evidence of what happened before, during and presently. 

The stage is also set for variant X, which could well be a more lethal version, with a ramp up of the fear factor, thus enabling a vaccine dependent populace to take whatever measures its government throws at it, France at this moment being a good example 

China.

Again, I didn't say we ARE going to war with China, but the sabres are certainly rattling, and have been for some time. 

Whether China will continue to accept sanctions and taxes is unknown, an armed conflict is certainly not a remote possibility, especially when they threaten to nuke a NATO member like they did last week. 

 

[timps]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

You appear to have extrapolated to something completely different. 

Notice the ? on the end? 

Yes I saw the ? Hence I answered, but you did say “but I rather see it as the test phase of a bigger pandemic”

That is not a question, that is a statement as you see it, hence I assumed it was your view.

So what are they testing ?

From your post it certainly seems you were intimating a one world government was the end game and this pandemic was part of it, albeit a first test.

But if it’s a test someone must have instigated it and have future plans, that’s what I don’t buy into regardless of whatever the end game actually is.

 

So I wouldn’t call it something completely different.

 

Even if we take the one world government out of it, your favoured theory is that persons unknown released the virus to frame China on the  pretext for virtually any measures against China up to and including war.

Like I said country’s don’t need a pandemic to do that and who are these people trying to frame China and for what ultimate goal?

 

How is the pandemic going to help them achieve this goal?

I just don’t buy that this virus was purposely released for some nefarious purpose.

I also don’t buy into all the governments of the world being simultaneously complicit in the controlling of their population through the use of this virus.

 

So that leads me to believe it’s an accidental outbreak from a lab or occurred in nature naturally.

[Gordon R]

Quote

So that leads me to believe it’s an accidental outbreak from a lab or occurred in nature naturally.

The whole thing in one sentence.

[old man]

A few random thoughts here.

The main feature about viruses is their constant mutation, hence the difficulty we face?

This could also answer the cases of this particular strain having been identified elsewhere prior to the main event as each individual case has the ability to evolve independently?

Another problem with this current one may lie in the fact of it coming via the Zoonotic route, as possibly no base immunity in the herd causes greater losses?

Covid will be here for the foreseeable future providing government with countless opportunities to restrict freedoms further because that's what they do? A cashless society gives control, promotion of fear gives control, the list is virtually endless, no opportunity will be missed in the race to subjugate?

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, old man said:

Covid will be here for the foreseeable future providing government with countless opportunities to restrict freedoms further because that's what they do? A cashless society gives control, promotion of fear gives control, the list is virtually endless, no opportunity will be missed in the race to subjugate?

Good post.

You only have to look at the world and in particular the States following 9/11 and the war on terror. I still scratch my head over that - granted we need protecting from religious crackpots but the subsequent wading in (and now out) of the Middle East and the mess that’s followed. Knowing what we know now, who wouldn’t turn the clock back on that? The senseless loss of life and maiming of our military personnel. We also have the militarisation of the police and a widespread reduction in civil liberties. 

It does make you wonder where this is all heading and what the history books will make of it all.

.

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Mungler

[Scully]

On 31/07/2021 at 08:44, serrac said:

 My inferred point is this:  You already established for us that the jab is not fit for purpose if the purpose is to prevent infection or tranmission. 

To be fair, the jab IS fit for purpose, from a UK citizen perspective, because it’s purpose was to prevent the virus from hitting the populace so hard the amount of hospitalisations requiring intensive care threatened to overwhelm the NHS again, which appears to be working. 
 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Scully

[serrac]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

To be fair, the jab IS fit for purpose, from a UK citizen perspective, because it’s purpose was to prevent the virus from hitting the populace so hard the amount of hospitalisations requiring intensive care threatened to overwhelm the NHS again, which appears to be working. 
 

To be fair, I qualified my statement with "the jab is not fit for purpose if the purpose is to prevent infection or transmission".

What I was trying to get across is that if the Jab cannot be proven to prevent infection or transmission then it is hard to see a valid rationale for Covid Passports to reference whether someone has been jabbed or not.  Only a recent test using an accurate method could indicate whether someone is currently carrying a viral load likely to be a threat to others or might develop symptoms likely to require medical intervention on foreign soil.

Much of the rhetoric around the unvaxxed is that they are selfish people who pose an extraordinary threat to others, which seems to be based on the false belief that the Jab is somehow an obstacle to transmission.

[Yellow Bear]

25 minutes ago, serrac said:

Much of the rhetoric around the unvaxxed is that they are selfish people who pose an extraordinary threat to others, which seems to be based on the false belief that the Jab is somehow an obstacle to transmission.

Having just checked the figures on the WHO site.

Most vaccines reduce chance of infection by 85% to  95% so in round figures you are only a 10th  likely to get infected

 Most vaccines reduce chance of onward transmitting by 40% to  60% so in round figures you are only then half as likely to pass it on.

So again the unvaxxed are 20 times more likely to catch and pass it on  -  YOU tell me whether this is selfish or not regardless of the passport situation.

[Gordon R]

Yellow Bear - decent post.

[serrac]

4 hours ago, Yellow Bear said:

Having just checked the figures on the WHO site.

Most vaccines reduce chance of infection by 85% to  95% so in round figures you are only a 10th  likely to get infected

 Most vaccines reduce chance of onward transmitting by 40% to  60% so in round figures you are only then half as likely to pass it on.

So again the unvaxxed are 20 times more likely to catch and pass it on  -  YOU tell me whether this is selfish or not regardless of the passport situation.

Hi, could you post the links to your references on the WHO site please?

The pre emergency approval testing of the pfizer and moderna vaccines claimed ~90% relative risk reduction but this was against the likelihood of developing moderate to severe symptoms - it was not claimed they reduced the risk of  infection by that amount.  If this is now the claim I would like to see the data supporting that claim.

Again I'd like to see the data supporting the claim the current crop of vaccines reduces the chance of onward transmission by 40% to 60%.

If the vaxxed are 20 times more likely to catch and pass on the virus why do cases appear to be surging most in the more highly vaccinated countries?

 

[timps]

Depends who you ask 🤷‍♂️

[Scully]

14 hours ago, serrac said:

To be fair, I qualified my statement with "the jab is not fit for purpose if the purpose is to prevent infection or transmission".

What I was trying to get across is that if the Jab cannot be proven to prevent infection or transmission then it is hard to see a valid rationale for Covid Passports to reference whether someone has been jabbed or not.  Only a recent test using an accurate method could indicate whether someone is currently carrying a viral load likely to be a threat to others or might develop symptoms likely to require medical intervention on foreign soil.

Much of the rhetoric around the unvaxxed is that they are selfish people who pose an extraordinary threat to others, which seems to be based on the false belief that the Jab is somehow an obstacle to transmission.

And I’m merely pointing out that it was NEVER intended that the purpose of the jab was to prevent infection or transmission. There was nothing for me to ‘establish’, as it was never the case. 

[serrac]

9 hours ago, timps said:

Depends who you ask 🤷‍♂️

Or the timeframe you examine. 

What we are looking at in your graphic is likely the drop off in infections as the Delta wave passes its peak.  For this to be meaningful you'd need to show the curves for the low vaccination rate regions as well.

[serrac]

43 minutes ago, Scully said:

And I’m merely pointing out that it was NEVER intended that the purpose of the jab was to prevent infection or transmission. There was nothing for me to ‘establish’, as it was never the case. 

I suspect it was very much the intention of the Jab designers that it would prevent infection and transmission, however since testing did not show this to be the case the next best selling point was it appeared to show a reduction in the severity of Covid symptoms in the Jabbed test cohort.

And you may be clear on the point - others not so much 😄

"Most vaccines reduce chance of infection by 85% to  95% so in round figures you are only a 10th  likely to get infected

 Most vaccines reduce chance of onward transmitting by 40% to  60% so in round figures you are only then half as likely to pass it on."