Jamming cartridges

[PJ M]

Has anyone had a problem of jamming with Lyalvale express super light? It's happened to me on two occasions now. The lip on the base of the cartridge appears to have flipped under the extractor. 

[old'un]

the problem is more than likely the extractors on the gun and not the cartridges.

and welcome to PW.

[Scully]

I’d have to agree with Old’un. I’ve used many Lyalvale cartridges and found none to be a problem. Ejectors however, can and do wear. 

[Taileron]

25 minutes ago, Scully said:

I’d have to agree with Old’un. I’ve used many Lyalvale cartridges and found none to be a problem. Ejectors however, can and do wear. 

Agree with you there Scully until a couple of weeks ago. I have never had a problem with lyevale in any of my guns but within the last fortnight my pal and I have had 3 bad primers and 8-10 with the exact same problem as PJM has had. We were shooting power red/blue/English sporter and both guns failed to eject sporadically. The ejectors are not worn as both guns are only a year old.

[JohnfromUK]

It is a not uncommon problem.  My take would be that certain guns have a combination of generously sized chambers/worn ejectors/relatively small ejectors.  I have one gun where it always looks like it might happen (but never does), and others that look like it couldn't happen.  The ejector on an o/u only covers quite a small part of the overall rim - whereas on a s/s it covers perhaps 30% or more.

Photo 1 shows a Merkel o/u with the top barrel with a snap cap - and only a small percentage of the rim engaged with the ejector.

Photo 2 shows a Beretta o/u with the top barrel with a snap cap - a larger, but still not huge percentage of the rim engaged with the ejector.

Photo 3 shows an Atkin s/s with the right barrel with a snap cap - a larger nearer 40 percent of the rim engaged with the ejector.

 

All of these guns are quite old, about 55 years for the Merkel, 25 years for the Beretta and 110 years for the Atkin.

Edited July 16, 2021 by JohnfromUK

[Scully]

15 minutes ago, Taileron said:

Agree with you there Scully until a couple of weeks ago. I have never had a problem with lyevale in any of my guns but within the last fortnight my pal and I have had 3 bad primers and 8-10 with the exact same problem as PJM has had. We were shooting power red/blue/English sporter and both guns failed to eject sporadically. The ejectors are not worn as both guns are only a year old.

Well there you go then. Shows you how much I know. 🙂

[Centrepin]

Lyalvale Express super light are my choice of cartridges for clays, never had a problem with them. Best of the cheapest. 

My gun is 5 years old and had 1 new ejector around January time.

[old'un]

1 hour ago, Taileron said:

Agree with you there Scully until a couple of weeks ago. I have never had a problem with lyevale in any of my guns but within the last fortnight my pal and I have had 3 bad primers and 8-10 with the exact same problem as PJM has had. We were shooting power red/blue/English sporter and both guns failed to eject sporadically. The ejectors are not worn as both guns are only a year old.

To confirm there maybe a problem with the cartridge sizing why not measure the case diameter (the metal part) and case rim diameter and then compare it to another cartridge make.

[Taileron]

2 minutes ago, old'un said:

To confirm there maybe a problem with the cartridge sizing why not measure the case diameter (the metal part) and case rim diameter and then compare it to another cartridge make.

We tried that but they were so damaged it was near impossible. We did however examine another pack of power blues and 2 had dents in the case, tried them and they failed to eject. I can only surmise that this batch we currently have has been mishandled somewhere along the lines. The bad primers I’m unsure about, we have used lyevale for as long as I can remember and never had one before.

[old man]

Surely one for Lyalvale themselves?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

31 minutes ago, old man said:

Surely one for Lyalvale themselves?

Yes return some via the place that you purchased them from.

[Scully]

2 hours ago, Taileron said:

We tried that but they were so damaged it was near impossible. We did however examine another pack of power blues and 2 had dents in the case, tried them and they failed to eject. I can only surmise that this batch we currently have has been mishandled somewhere along the lines. The bad primers I’m unsure about, we have used lyevale for as long as I can remember and never had one before.

Yeah, I would say you need to contact the manufacturer. You never know, you may get a free slab!🙂

[London Best]

12 hours ago, Scully said:

Yeah, I would say you need to contact the manufacturer. You never know, you may get a free slab!🙂

I once had a squib-fire with a Lyalvale 20 bore which left a wad in the barrel. I returned the rest of the slab via the dealer and Lyalvale supplied a free slab.

[Scully]

26 minutes ago, London Best said:

I once had a squib-fire with a Lyalvale 20 bore which left a wad in the barrel. I returned the rest of the slab via the dealer and Lyalvale supplied a free slab.

I experienced a ‘squib’ with Gamebore White Gold ( dirty dirty cartridge ) many many moons ago which did the same. Never thought to return them. 😕

[London Best]

I suppose when you try to imagine the number of cartridges loaded around the World the occasional dud is to be expected. Remarkable how few show up really.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, London Best said:

I suppose when you try to imagine the number of cartridges loaded around the World the occasional dud is to be expected. Remarkable how few show up really.

I have had (that I can remember in 45 years shooting);

• Damp squib leaving wads in barrel - once that I can remember
• Damp squib leaving barrels clear - twice?
• Punctured primers - multiple from one batch of Eley Impax - years ago - new slab supplied by Eley who also paid for gunsmith to clean gun internals.  Very occasional others.
• Misfires - one batch quite recently.  About 5% fail to fire in two different (o/u) guns - whereas 100% OK in other guns (s/s).  Two guns involved 100% fine with other brands and other batches of same brand.  Gunsmith showed me that primers were slightly recessed on that batch.

I have had the spent cartridge get behind the ejector - but as far as I can remember - only once and I can't remember the exact circumstances.  I have seen it quite frequently with other people (as I have misfires).  I have seen one 'hangfire' - though it was not clear if this was cartridge or gun related (an auto and owner didn't hear a strike, but someone else thought they did).  No drama as gun was in a safe direction all of the time.

I have also had a 'light strike' issue where one barrel gave occasional misfires - traced to partially broken spring in gun.

[London Best]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

I have had (that I can remember in 45 years shooting);

• Damp squib leaving wads in barrel - once that I can remember
• Damp squib leaving barrels clear - twice?
• Punctured primers - multiple from one batch of Eley Impax - years ago - new slab supplied by Eley who also paid for gunsmith to clean gun internals.  Very occasional others.
• Misfires - one batch quite recently.  About 5% fail to fire in two different (o/u) guns - whereas 100% OK in other guns (s/s).  Two guns involved 100% fine with other brands and other batches of same brand.  Gunsmith showed me that primers were slightly recessed on that batch.

I have had the spent cartridge get behind the ejector - but as far as I can remember - only once and I can't remember the exact circumstances.  I have seen it quite frequently with other people (as I have misfires).  I have seen one 'hangfire' - though it was not clear if this was cartridge or gun related (an auto and owner didn't hear a strike, but someone else thought they did).  No drama as gun was in a safe direction all of the time.

I have also had a 'light strike' issue where one barrel gave occasional misfires - traced to partially broken spring in gun.

Quite a few of those instances sound more like gun problems.

I have not had a misfire with a shotgun cartridge since.......who knows when?  The mainsprings did become weak on my workaday Spanish LIG after the first 40 years and caused a couple of misfires but I resolved that with new springs and cannot blame the cartridges in any way. I think I have had 3 squib fires in total over 60 years, one each in 12, 20 and .410. Notable that you say stuff misfires in some O/U’s but ok in other guns. I believe there is an issue with striker angles in some O/U’s but don’t know to which, if any, particular type it applies. I have never had a punctured primer to my knowledge.
Having said all that, Eley subs misfire about 20% of the time in my BRNO .22, but all other ammo seems fine so I don’t buy Eley subs.

Edited July 17, 2021 by London Best

[Taileron]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

I suppose when you try to imagine the number of cartridges loaded around the World the occasional dud is to be expected. Remarkable how few show up really.

Solid point, it must be millions sold per year so I suppose it’s just a spin of the dice as to when it’s “your turn” to get a dud. The place where I buy the cartridges from is an agri shop, they are not particularly known for the smooth handling of items and I suspect the slabs have simply been dropped at some point. 

[JohnfromUK]

35 minutes ago, London Best said:

Quite a few of those instances sound more like gun problems.

You are right - bullets 1 and 2 could have been either. - though as isolated instances, the gun seemed OK.  The wads in the barrel was an SO Beretta, I can't remember what the others were. 

Bullet 3 was accepted by the cartridge manufacturer after my gunsmith advised them of the issue.

Bullet 4 was an odd one.  The guns concerned would fire any other cartridge, and those cartridges would fire in other guns (that we were able to try).  The primers were a bit 'low' under a straight edge across the base.  I didn't try any claim, just used them up elsewhere.

I can also recall at least two instances of having a cartridge out of the box with no primer fitted.  These are however rare instances and I must have handled upwards of 100.000 cartridges over the time.

[London Best]

This is not to play highest up the wall:

For twelve seasons I was a loader on a very serious shoot which did 90/100 days/season. Most days were double gunning with bags from five hundred to obscene numbers. If we just say I perhaps loaded on a minimum of fifty days/season, five drives/day. A light drive for a man single gunning was about eighty shots, so four hundred/day. A more typical drive, double gunning, was about 140/150 shots, with many instances of me praying for the end of the drive because my bag of 250 was down to the dregs, sometimes only one or two left. I would guess the typical guest fired five hundred/day. Five hundred times fifty days would be 25,000/season. Multiply that by the twelve years I was there and I handled a lot of cartridges.

My point being that in all that time I cannot recall a single misfire!

[PJ M]

Thank you all for your comments. I think I'll try a different brand of cartridge and see if the problem reoccurs. If it does then I'll get the extractor checked out. The gun I'm using is a Rizzini o/u. It's about twenty years old. 

[pigeon controller]

I’ve been using Lyalvale steel 5s,6s and 7s after fifty shots they start to jam, if I force it the ejector passes the rim of the cartridge. That was with my Beretta Silver Pigeon. I’m now using a Gold E and have the same problem. If I shoot corvids with Proper Cartridges lead no jams. On the Silver Pigeon I replaced the ejector and springs no change , I even increased the surface area that contacts the cartridge lip no change, polished the chamber no change . If I dry fire the spent cartridge it will eject. Over to the Boffins????

 

[London Best]

To me, the puzzling bit is why after fifty shots, unless it’s rapid fire and the gun gets hot?

[pigeon controller]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

To me, the puzzling bit is why after fifty shots, unless it’s rapid fire and the gun gets hot?

Not sure but heat could expand the chamber, also the increased pressure with the powder for steel and cheap steel for cartridge cases .

The common denominator is the steel cartridge.

[Old farrier]

10 hours ago, pigeon controller said:

Not sure but heat could expand the chamber, also the increased pressure with the powder for steel and cheap steel for cartridge cases .

The common denominator is the steel cartridge.

There was a similar problem a few years ago with 20 bore cartridges not ejecting 

not sure but think the cases were expanding to much and sticking in the chamber causing the extractor to go passed the head