Eley eco steel

[wymberley]

10 hours ago, Maxus Hunter said:

Where r u getting those penetration figures from, steel penetrates better than lead because lead is meant to kill with energy so where r u getting ur data from ?

First off, what Stonepark says - thanks SP, for saving me the trouble - my wrists are killing me.

I only use a ballistic programme - Sierra Infinity Suite -  for energy/velocity figures, all else is calculated to suit, but I only play now out of interest as I won't be using NTS. I would not use the predicted figures as such though, but as a comparison and would input the information that I know works with lead and then look for the same level (penetration) as lead, but only if sensibly feasible (Ditchman has it nailed) with whatever NTS material or size I'm looking at.

There is no such thing, as energy is simply energy and has no density, but the phrase, 'energy density' was coined to suit our needs which it does. Have a look into it as it may just ease your pain.

[8 shot]

19 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

seen this argument like 1000 time now and the same things dont seem to get factored in. yes steel will kill  at the ranges lead will  if you go up your apropriate shot size, and yes steel  patterns tighter.

heres my main  belief why high birds shooters will be a thing of the past with steel and its not killing potential, its comfort followed by economics.

we all agree steel 1 will do what lead 4 will do however  for every ounce of lead 4 you get roughly 170 pellets  an ouce of steel 1s will get you rougly 100 so you get  bigger gaps or smaller overall pattern than a like for like lead. Options.

 

bigger gaps-- we all know why thats not good, moving on.

 

non toxic shot other than steel-- we all know the crack lets move on again

 

Tighter choke--could do but its pretty much blanket advice by the industry that its not a brilliant idea to go to tight even if you gun/choke combo will take it.  besides steel starts to open up again at range if you go to far. idk why but somone will im sure. has the same pros and cons as choke choice in lead. so that option is a bit of a non starter too.

 

heavier loads--  for the most part im sure their is exceptions somwhere but anything beyond 32g in steel is a 3" magnum  and lets not argue that a 36g  lead cart thumps just like a 36g steel, we know they dont. So realistically who is gona stand on the peg  and just go through box after box of 3" steel?.  its ok on the forshore where youve got loads of layers for warmth and a full box shot is an exceptionally good day.   people will try it and be battered and peformance will go out the window or they will throw light loads up. either way they will just increase the amount of pricked birds and misses until it becomes a lottery and shoots will ban it or it will be so frowned upon youll just stop doing it.

anyone who says folks wont get tired and yes they will fire SP steel all day .If extreme range kills are the goal, whats stopped them throwing 3" lead carts up this whole time and bring them down out of orbit?. regardless if its the recoil or the excessive damage to more reasonable ranged birds the same factors still apply with steel but probably more pronounced youre gona have to compromise somwhere    how long do you thing the whole thing will last if we use steel like lead?. its gona be loads of wounded  hight birds with 32g of steel 3s or loads of apsolutly smashed birds with  36g+  of magnum steel 1s or BBs

Exactly this.

[holloway]

Unless I have missed it ,nobody has mentioned the fact that an efficient steel load is launched at a greater speed than lead ,this is what evens out the pellet size variables hence the new powders specially designed to maintain high speed with low pressure the old powders were fine for lead but not perfect for steel .The launch speed difference mostly evens out the performance ,tweak pellet size a little and you can’t tell the difference.

 

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, holloway said:

Unless I have missed it ,nobody has mentioned the fact that an efficient steel load is launched at a greater speed than lead ,this is what evens out the pellet size variables hence the new powders specially designed to maintain high speed with low pressure the old powders were fine for lead but not perfect for steel .The launch speed difference mostly evens out the performance ,tweak pellet size a little and you can’t tell the difference.

 

Unfortunately the laws of physics apply even to steel shot, and hence steel pellets being less dense than lead and hence then two sizes larger will quickly lose any initial velocity advantage very much quicker than an equivalent smaller lead pellet. New powders are irrelevant in fact steel powders are just slow burning powders that were used for heavy lead shot payloads.
In the U.K. the maximum velocity of steel cartridges is set by CIP, where as for lead cartridges CIP set a maximum pressure rather than velocity.  Hence lead shot can always out perform steel. Likewise tungsten based heavy shot will always out perform lead.

Edited November 26, 2021 by rbrowning2

[holloway]

14 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Unfortunately the laws of physics apply even to steel shot, and hence steel pellets being less dense than lead and two sizes larger will quickly lose any initial velocity advantage very much quicker than an equivalent lead pellet. New powders are irrelevant in fact steel powders are just slow burning powders that were used for heavy lead shot payloads.
In the U.K. the maximum velocity of steel cartridges is set by CIP, where as for lead cartridges CIP set a maximum pressure rather than velocity.  Hence lead shot can always out perform steel.

Nobody is disputing that lead will always outperform steel but loaded correctly steel has its advantages and is effective, Alliant steel is not an old lead powder if you study any basic reloading manual you will see that the pressures produced by some of the old lead magnum powders is far too high there is no way you can increase the speed without causing dangerously high pressures the laws of physics can’t change just because you call it a steel powder.

If you check through all reloading data you will see that specialist steel powders consistently have the highest speeds with the lowest and safest pressures .Having said all of that I have used blue dot and Hs6 to good effect but with them the pressures start to creep up.

 

[Sweet11-87]

22 hours ago, holloway said:

Unless I have missed it ,nobody has mentioned the fact that an efficient steel load is launched at a greater speed than lead ,this is what evens out the pellet size variables hence the new powders specially designed to maintain high speed with low pressure the old powders were fine for lead but not perfect for steel .The launch speed difference mostly evens out the performance ,tweak pellet size a little and you can’t tell the difference.

i honestly thought this was the case aswell but looking at load data, and claimed velocitys on manufacturers websites which always tends to be generous anyway theyre about the same as a 70mm game lead cartridge and wit 3 inch high performance being less than 100 fps faster. like others have said less density and bigger surface area they will slow down a fair bit quicker.

the science is all pointing one way but i must say whenever ive used steel ive done well with it and its impressed me. maybe its becasue im concious of its limitations and im  maybe not going for stuff that i may have had a go at with lead, even though its probably well capable. That actually may be the way to approch it. expect the worst and be pleasently suprised when its better than you though.

all the folks claming its can perform like lead with modern powders and tech are deluded. As if the industly just decided theyd reached a good point and stopped R&D into powders and wads like 20 years ago and kicked it back up again and made leaps and bounds since the anouncment of the faze out..... Be real,  if somone just figure out in under 2 years a chemical formula thats stable, can be mass producedand allowed you to throw heavier projectles faster and with less recoil, and maintain a pressure similar to what weve got now i think every major nation and its armed forces would be very intrested in having a chat with that person.

 

22 hours ago, holloway said:

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Sweet11-87

[holloway]

4 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

i honestly thought this was the case aswell but looking at load data, and claimed velocitys on manufacturers websites which always tends to be generous anyway theyre about the same as a 70mm game lead cartridge and wit 3 inch high performance being less than 100 fps faster. like others have said less density and bigger surface area they will slow down a fair bit quicker.

the science is all pointing one way but i must say whenever ive used steel ive done well with it and its impressed me. maybe its becasue im concious of its limitations and im  maybe not going for stuff that i may have had a go at with lead, even though its probably well capable. That actually may be the way to approch it. expect the worst and be pleasently suprised when its better than you though.

all the folks claming its can perform like lead with modern powders and tech are deluded. As if the industly just decided theyd reached a good point and stopped R&D into powders and wads like 20 years ago and kicked it back up again and made leaps and bounds since the anouncment of the faze out..... Be real,  if somone just figure out in under 2 years a chemical formula thats stable, can be mass producedand allowed you to throw heavier projectles faster and with less recoil, and maintain a pressure similar to what weve got now i think every major nation and its armed forces would be very intrested in having a chat with that person.

 

 

Ok

[Smudger687]

On 20/11/2021 at 19:19, 8 shot said:

I went beating a fortnight ago and two of the guns had a day in Wales where they were asked to shoot one drive with steel of there choise, both said that "extreme bird shooting is finished with steel, they just don't kill over 40 yrds 

The issue is less a problem with steel as a shot material, and more with CIP not allowing hotter cartridges to be produced, and many chokes being of such poor quality that anything tighter than modified can't be used with steel.

I'm also intrigued as to whether the switch to steel will cause a resurgence in the 10 gauge. If you want to see the long range capability of 10 gauge steel, look up some of Zeekupp's videos on youtube. 

[8 shot]

But will hotter cartridges make up for lack of pattern at decent ranges ? or is lack of pattern just poor quality chokes

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Smudger687 said:

The issue is less a problem with steel as a shot material, and more with CIP not allowing hotter cartridges to be produced, and many chokes being of such poor quality that anything tighter than modified can't be used with steel.

I'm also intrigued as to whether the switch to steel will cause a resurgence in the 10 gauge. If you want to see the long range capability of 10 gauge steel, look up some of Zeekupp's videos on youtube. 

I've always wondered why it is that you can't use more than 1/2 choke with steel shot. Thanks for clearing that up

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Smudger687 said:

……and many chokes being of such poor quality that anything tighter than modified can't be used with steel.

 

Really? Where have you got this information from? How does this apply to fixed choke guns of tighter constriction? 

[Fellside]

On 20/11/2021 at 17:28, Dave at kelton said:

So thought I would buy some eco steel in 12 and 20 bore to try this season. I know steel can do the job on the foreshore but on pheasants? Had a day on our small shoot today. Birds are generally standard stuff around 25 yds with anything over 30 yds a high, or long bird. I took the 20 bore out and choked it imp cyl and quarter. Was using 24 gm no 4 shot. Firstly there was almost no felt recoil in a gun weighing around 6lb 12oz, a really sweet cartridge. As to performance it was brilliant with only one exception, six first barrel kills on a variety of birds through the imp cyl barrel. The last bird was dead on the second barrel a good way out at 30 yds. On returning home I cleaned the gun. Quite a lot of powder and general residue so needed a good scrub through, probably more than with my usual VIP load. The barrels though came up fine with not a mark.

In conclusion these shells are a hit for me and I will carry on using them. Not sure what they will perform like on taller birds but will see when I get that opportunity.

These ‘real world’ experiences are valuable. Thanks for sharing. 

[Smudger687]

@Scully Usually the reason that is given for half choke maximum with steel is that going any tighter would "blow the pattern" and/or that damage to the chokes can occur, particularly with steel >4.0mm.

I simply do not believe this - the .720 and .705 SRM terror chokes for 10 gauge are equivalent to an extra full and super full choke (.720 being as tight as IC in 12 bore, and .705 being as tight as a modified in 12 bore), and they throw extremely tight patterns even with F sized steel, far tighter than patterns you typically see with a modified, and definitely not "blown patterns".

Likewise, the UFO choke offered by Muller for 12 gauge has ~43 thou constriction - tighter than full choke, yet throws tight, even patterns with no restrictions on shot size or shot material. 

This would suggest that, in fact, there is not some universal law saying "anything tighter than half with steel is bad", but rather certain chokes not being built to withstand it.

[Dave at kelton]

10 minutes ago, Fellside said:

These ‘real world’ experiences are valuable. Thanks for sharing. 

This is exactly what I intended whereas the thread seems to be dominated by technical argument for, or against, steel shot.

[Fellside]

Just now, Dave at kelton said:

This is exactly what I intended whereas the thread seems to be dominated by technical argument for, or against, steel shot.

I know, it sometimes gets ranty, let it roll. 

[Dave at kelton]

8 hours ago, Fellside said:

I know, it sometimes gets ranty, let it roll. 

I have😂😂😂😂

[Scully]

18 hours ago, Smudger687 said:

@Scully Usually the reason that is given for half choke maximum with steel is that going any tighter would "blow the pattern" and/or that damage to the chokes can occur, particularly with steel >4.0mm.

I simply do not believe this - the .720 and .705 SRM terror chokes for 10 gauge are equivalent to an extra full and super full choke (.720 being as tight as IC in 12 bore, and .705 being as tight as a modified in 12 bore), and they throw extremely tight patterns even with F sized steel, far tighter than patterns you typically see with a modified, and definitely not "blown patterns".

Likewise, the UFO choke offered by Muller for 12 gauge has ~43 thou constriction - tighter than full choke, yet throws tight, even patterns with no restrictions on shot size or shot material. 

This would suggest that, in fact, there is not some universal law saying "anything tighter than half with steel is bad", but rather certain chokes not being built to withstand it.

I don’t know who comes up with some of the guff passed around regarding the do’s and don’ts about shooting, and particular that regarding the use of steel, I really don’t. 
I have used Gamebore Super steel 3’s a lot, initially putting them through an old 101 with original Winchokes, and Teague chokes, admittedly no tighter than half as that was the tightest I had at the time, but I’ve also put the same load through a 3/4 fixed choke Browning 2000.

No ducks ever reported back to say the pattern was full of holes, and the pattern on rabbits were simply devastating, even at range. 
If tight fixed choke guns aren’t up to the job, then perhaps our shooting representatives need to be considering a buy back scheme if they want us to use steel.
It’s plainly obvious why they have proposed a ‘voluntary phase out’ as opposed to an outright ban, isn’t it! ‘Push for a voluntary phase out then no one can point at us when the legislators ban it outright.’ Sorted. 
 

[Rimfireboy]

So, which is better, lead or steel ? 🙄

 

😂😂😂

[Aled]

Interesting comments all. 

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Aled

[Scully]

15 hours ago, Rimfireboy said:

So, which is better, lead or steel ? 🙄

 

😂😂😂

😂😂