Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

You remain free to think what you wish and support whoever you want, and I remain free to pour scorn and mock you accordingly 😉

You seem to spend more time doing that , than actually analysing or discussing the subject matter,
Quite often, I dont believe you even read the post or look at the links , before setting out on a pant wetting tirade of abuse.
Even when I agree with you , you still spit bile 

Its actually funny to watch, and I know its a form of confirmation bias for you, where YOU are always right, and the 'Putin sympathisers' are always wrong, even when some of your dodgy 'facts' dont stand up to scrutiny, you ignore it and just move on with your crusade.

There was an incident the other day where 'Russophobia' reared its head in good old blighty, you know the land of free speech ect ect.
A couple of people were flying various small flags during a protest, one of them unfortunately was Russian 🤪
Several wrongful arrests later, and they were set free.......

You would likely have shot them on the spot 

 

[Rewulf]

I know this will get rubbished, as they are obviously lizard believers, and flat earthers (They are actually , a fairly normal husband and wife journalistic team)
And professor Sachs is a high respected economist, but hey, what does that mean now days, if you dont follow the narrative, youre basically Russian 😆
Make sure you get to the bit where Bloomberg removes the Sachs interview from its archives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJAIzO8ShEk

 

[Mungler]

But where does it say that I or anyone need have a rational debate with someone who is demonstrably irrational.

You can fill the space with as many words and videos from the obscure corners of the internet as you like, but the red line is that if you can't or won't see Putin as having put a foot wrong in any of this mess, then I get to stop listening and will resume laughing and pointing.

People often say that they have a balanced view just to try and add credibility or establish a reasonable approach, but often that is window dressing for extreme and unbalanced views.  We've been picking at that scab for a hundred plus pages and it came off last night - seriously, how do you begin to debate or discuss any aspect of this with anyone who just can't find any criticism to make of Putin?

Fill you boots from here on in, as you say no one is listening. I am happy in the knowledge that the list of names in my echo chamber is longer and filled with less nutters than yours 😆

 

 

[timps]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

You seem to spend more time doing that , than actually analysing or discussing the subject matter,
Quite often, I dont believe you even read the post or look at the links , before setting out on a pant wetting tirade of abuse.

But to be fair to Mungler you have done the same in an earlier post to me “Its a red herring, no one believes the lizard thing (well unless youre certifiable)”

However, plenty of people do believe it (Lizard Lords), some (if reports are correct) 12 million Americans do and that doesn’t take into account of other countries and there are countless YouTube channels ‘proving it’. But you are quite happy to pour scorn on it and call them certifiable, that is only the same as Mungler is doing here.

You find it incredulous that people believe in Lizard Lords but cannot accept Mungler feels the same about some of your beliefs which was my whole original point you responded to.

[mchughcb]

29 minutes ago, Mungler said:

But where does it say that I or anyone need have a rational debate with someone who is demonstrably irrational.

You can fill the space with as many words and videos from the obscure corners of the internet as you like, but the red line is that if you can't or won't see Putin as having put a foot wrong in any of this mess, then I get to stop listening and will resume laughing and pointing.

People often say that they have a balanced view just to try and add credibility or establish a reasonable approach, but often that is window dressing for extreme and unbalanced views.  We've been picking at that scab for a hundred plus pages and it came off last night - seriously, how do you begin to debate or discuss any aspect of this with anyone who just can't find any criticism to make of Putin?

Fill you boots from here on in, as you say no one is listening. I am happy in the knowledge that the list of names in my echo chamber is longer and filled with less nutters than yours 😆

 

 

In the Soviet days people fled Russia to seek asylum from persecution. These days people like Snowdon flee the USA and get asylum in Russia.

How times have changed.

[Mungler]

4 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

In the Soviet days people fled Russia to seek asylum from persecution. These days people like Snowdon flee the USA and get asylum in Russia.

How times have changed.

 

It is either an isolated pariah state or the shining beacon of freedom.

I know which is more probable.

No one fled to Russia for asylum or to flee persecution. It's a big old world and if you needed to flee to Russia then you needed somewhere to hide with no questions.

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, timps said:

But to be fair to Mungler you have done the same in an earlier post to me “Its a red herring, no one believes the lizard thing (well unless youre certifiable)”

Thats merely a statement of my beliefs.....

 

19 minutes ago, timps said:

However, plenty of people do believe it (Lizard Lords), some (if reports are correct) 12 million Americans do and that doesn’t take into account of other countries and there are countless YouTube channels ‘proving it’. But you are quite happy to pour scorn on it and call them certifiable, that is only the same as Mungler is doing here.

Im sorry what ? If they want to believe in lizards thats their problem , and their right.
Half the world believe in sky fairies, and gardens of paradise with 72 'perpetual' virgins, but I  dont pour scorn on them or call them nutters do I ?

 

22 minutes ago, timps said:

You find it incredulous that people believe in Lizard Lords but cannot accept Mungler feels the same about some of your beliefs which was my whole original point you responded to.

Where did I find it incredulous ?
Mungler is perfectly entitled to find my observations abhorrent if he chooses, but he has set himself at purpose of weeding out the Russian agents on PW , who are trying to subvert the good people on here 😆

He has lost sight of the bigger picture, which is sad , as his contributions on other subjects have made enjoyable reading

[timps]

18 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Im sorry what ? If they want to believe in lizards thats their problem , and their right.
Half the world believe in sky fairies, and gardens of paradise with 72 'perpetual' virgins, but I  dont pour scorn on them or call them nutters do I ?

I have no idea on your views of sky fairies etc.  but I do know your views on those who believe in lizard lords, which according to your beliefs are 'certifiable' which means that you are calling them nutters.  

Therefore, if you are calling them 'certifiable' then you must find their views incredulous (unwilling to admit or accept what is offered as true).

Either way you have taken the same stance as Mungler just on a different subject, however you criticise Mungler for taking this stance on Russia.  

My point being, there are subjects that you dismiss as being 'certifiable' for believing so surely others can have that view on subjects that maybe you believe in ?

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by timps

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, timps said:

I have no idea on your views of sky fairies etc.  but I do know your views on those who believe in lizard lords, which according to your beliefs are 'certifiable' which means that you are calling them nutters.  

Therefore, if you are calling them 'certifiable' then you must find their views incredulous (unwilling to admit or accept what is offered as true).

Either way you have taken the same stance as Mungler just on a different subject, however you criticise Mungler for taking this stance on Russia.  

Are you seriously comparing the belief that the world is run by a cabal of 'lizard lords' to the belief that the Ukraine war is being manipulated by the US/NATO for strategic and economic gains ?

One of these has some clear evidence of possibility , the other has none , and is a manufactured conspiracy , designed to paint those who have genuine concerns and questions about real events, with a broad brush of being a deranged conspiracy theorist.
Hence the red herring comment.
The fact that some genuinely believe it to be true, as well as flat earthers and chem trails, is testament to their mental abilities.

Its an interesting conundrum , that during the covid years, Mungler was an active poster (as was I as you know ) of how the governmental responses verged on conspiracy, whilst the flat earther monicker was often used on such 'non believers'
Yet here he is , using it as  a fall back on people he disagrees with about Ukraine.
The irony.

[ditchman]

really.................to be frank ...if you have just listened to Lizz Truss at the conferance.............i think the flat earthers and the lizard lords and sky fairies should form a co-olition  to stand at the next general election

they have my vote...and i dont think they would take 12 years to sort this country and all the self abusers out

Edited October 5, 2022 by ditchman

[timps]

24 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Are you seriously comparing the belief that the world is run by a cabal of 'lizard lords' to the belief that the Ukraine war is being manipulated by the US/NATO for strategic and economic gains ?

I’m dismissive of both, you are dismissive of just one, why can’t I dismiss both with the same argument?

Whatever answer you give then plays into the hands of Lizard  Lords.

24 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

One of these has some clear evidence of possibility , the other has none...

Well not according to those that believe in Lizard Lords, they do offer YouTube proof which does seem to be the normal way of proving your view is correct for this thread.

To some on here your clear evidence of possibility on NATO is also a non-starter and neither you or I can prove the Lizard Lords don’t exist. Just like I can’t prove the world elite aren’t in some form of cabal to control the world with COVID or giving Ukraine weapons support but I don't believe a world elite cabal exists.

The serious point is, we are all dismissive in a derogatory sort of way for things we find hard to believe, you can’t criticize that stance from others when you also take that stance yourself.    

[Rewulf]

31 minutes ago, timps said:

I’m dismissive of both, you are dismissive of just one, why can’t I dismiss both with the same argument?

Because its completely illogical, they are 2 completely separate arguments !

 

32 minutes ago, timps said:

Whatever answer you give then plays into the hands of Lizard  Lords.

Only if you give their existence any credence , which no one within this thread has done, so its not only irrelevant, its a distraction from the subject.

The only person who bought up lizards is Mungler, who bought them up to strengthen his argument that he was right, and anyone who disagreed with him was wrong, literally by claiming that whoever disagreed with his conviction and assessment of the Ukraine war 'Probably believed in lizards ruling the world'

37 minutes ago, timps said:

Well not according to those that believe in Lizard Lords, they do offer YouTube proof which does seem to be the normal way of proving your view is correct for this thread.

I take it you have watched these videos , how do they prove the existence of illuminati style lizards 
They simply cannot, anymore than they can 'prove' the earth is flat.

 

40 minutes ago, timps said:

To some on here your clear evidence of possibility on NATO is also a non-starter and neither you or I can prove the Lizard Lords don’t exist. Just like I can’t prove the world elite aren’t in some form of cabal to control the world with COVID or giving Ukraine weapons support but I don't believe a world elite cabal exists.

The serious point is, we are all dismissive in a derogatory sort of way for things we find hard to believe, you can’t criticize that stance from others when you also take that stance yourself.    

You see, I chose my words very carefully there.
'Clear evidence of possibility', are you saying that isnt present ?
When evidence is submitted , one of the defining factors is motive, are we saying that NATO who despite saying publicly, that they are not involved with the Ukraine war, have no interest in damaging Russia ?
An organisation designed to fight Russian interests for over 70 years ? Who have consistently supplied weapons , training and intel to any proxy who would fight against the Bear ?
They have motive in spades.
Even so , and despite the continuation and escalation , driven by the US/NATO in Ukraine, of arms and intel, you will say there is no PROOF, that this is a deliberate attempt to damage Russia , yet despite various US politicos saying publicly that they want the war to continue as long as possible, as this will damage Russia more, this never gets used as proof of anything more than the west 'helping ' Ukraine.
I would say for my own part, the best evidence, is the simple fact that long before the invasion , not a single western party did anything meaningful to avert it.
And once it did start, NOTHING to end it , this is an ongoing fact, of which we should hang our heads in shame.

56 minutes ago, timps said:

neither you or I can prove the Lizard Lords don’t exist

Im not going to try and prove God doesnt exist either, there are far more important things in life.

Doh ! 😆

[timps]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Because its completely illogical, they are 2 completely separate arguments !

Not to me, they are the same type of argument, there have been some very outlandish wild and crazy claims made on this thread.

One of them being NATO is controlled by a Western Elite cabal and Prime Ministers and Presidents etc. have absolutely no say in it, they have to follow this cabal or lose their seat.

This war was started at the cabal behest solely to financially benefit the cabal’s members.

None of these ousted prime ministers or presidents have ever alluded to this cabal’s existence but I’m told it exists without proof. That to me is bonkers, so surely, I can say its bonkers just like a Lizard Lord is?

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

I take it you have watched these videos , how do they prove the existence of illuminati style lizards 
They simply cannot, anymore than they can 'prove' the earth is flat.

I don’t need to as neither do the countless YouTube videos posted on this thread prove the views posted on here, but the posters aver that it’s some form of proof. Are you now saying YouTube doesn’t offer proof? Then if so, we agree which was kind of my point.

 

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

You see, I chose my words very carefully there.
'Clear evidence of possibility', are you saying that isnt present ?

I’ve seen no evidence at all, only conjecture, there are countless motives from countless entities so that in itself is not proof. Are you saying NATO provoked Russia to invade so they could somehow get some economic gain from the ensuing conflict for their Western Elite (non-Lizard type accepted) overlords, if so that’s bonkers to me.

I think Russia invaded for a land grab and NATO is helping Ukraine because of fear that failure to do so might cause issues to NATO members with borders close to the conflict at some future date.

[Raja Clavata]

Meanwhile the early reports of 15000 ruskies ready to surrender sounds interesting, unlike most of the stuff posted on this thread lately 😆

[Rewulf]

16 minutes ago, timps said:

Not to me, they are the same type of argument, there have been some very outlandish wild and crazy claims made on this thread.

I cant be responsible for Munglers statements , sorry.

 

17 minutes ago, timps said:

One of them being NATO is controlled by a Western Elite cabal and Prime Ministers and Presidents etc. have absolutely no say in it, they have to follow this cabal or lose their seat.

So who controls NATO , simple question.?
It appears to be a far simpler question to ask who controls Russia, many would say Putin has dictatorial control over every aspect , the dark lord hypothesis.
Do you believe that to be true ?

Equally does sleepy Joe control the US , or indeed, his bodily functions ?

24 minutes ago, timps said:

This war was started at the cabal behest solely to financially benefit the cabal’s members.

None of these ousted prime ministers or presidents have ever alluded to this cabal’s existence but I’m told it exists without proof. That to me is bonkers, so surely, I can say its bonkers just like a Lizard Lord is?

If there is a cabal of elites, and they do control things, what use is money to them ?
Indeed, if there was proof of their existence, and more importantly, their intentions , what good would they be ?
I dont think their is any doubt that there are elites, we know some of them very well, multi billionaire dynasties that will continue to grow in wealth , but more importantly in power, influence, and control,   they dont necessarily have to all be James Bond villains, but is it unreasonable to think a few of them could ?

Can you see the wind ?
Of course not , but do you doubt its existence , or its power ?

 

32 minutes ago, timps said:

I don’t need to as neither do the countless YouTube videos posted on this thread prove the views posted on here, but the posters aver that it’s some form of proof. Are you now saying YouTube doesn’t offer proof? Then if so, we agree which was kind of my point.

I think you are confusing a view/opinion as proof.
Both sides of the argument post videos, not a single one offers proof of anything, not a shred of analysis offers any evidence that cant be countered.
Its just that one side believes their moral high ground guarantees they are in the right.

Ive said several times , these are my opinions , I am entitled to them , and if Im wrong , I shall eat humble pie, or be sent to gulag by Mungler for re education.

40 minutes ago, timps said:

I’ve seen no evidence at all, only conjecture, there are countless motives from countless entities so that in itself is not proof. Are you saying NATO provoked Russia to invade so they could somehow get some economic gain from the ensuing conflict for their Western Elite (non-Lizard type accepted) overlords, if so that’s bonkers to me.

I think Russia invaded for a land grab and NATO is helping Ukraine because of fear that failure to do so might cause issues to NATO members with borders close to the conflict at some future date.

OK , first off conjecture seems to work only one way , the evidence would suggest that Russia had ample opportunity to invade and take the country in 2014, Ukraine had little western assistance, and very poor mobilisation.
Crimea accepted , why didnt they occupy the Donbass then ?
Did the west provoke Russia ? The easy answer is yes, Maidan was a coup, with extensive US assistance, the actions of the US in the last year has confirmed that for me , as I was a little unsure.
I think once that cart was rolling down the hill, the unexpected effectiveness of the plan was a shock to many, Russia was slow to react though.
The land grab hypothesis doesnt really work, as that land was always going to be difficult to hold, personally I dont think there was a real intention to invade , it was bluster , to test the water and gauge western reaction.
There simply werent enough troops and logistics to cover a 3 front campaign, but something happened to make Russia go ahead with it , I wont speculate, but once committed, they had to continue.

This is really old ground though, we need to examine where this ends , as we cannot agree where it started.
Like I said , look at the west , who are in a perfect position to broker some kind of peace, even if its a ceasefire , and a phased withdrawal of Russian troops .
Yet the silence is deafening, and all we hear is more weapons getting sent.
These are not the actions of a blameless party , who just want to help Ukraine.

[timps]

46 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

So who controls NATO , simple question.?

The governments of the NATO members

46 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

If there is a cabal of elites, and they do control things, what use is money to them ?

I have no idea, I just took your statement that US /NATO want it for economic gain and the US and NATO are controlled by these elites.

49 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Can you see the wind ?
Of course not , but do you doubt its existence , or its power ?

Of course I don’t doubt it as wind can be proven to exist.

50 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I think you are confusing a view/opinion as proof.

Not at all but isn’t Lizard Lords a view/opinion ?

But that is dismissed by you as certifiable, I agree that it is, however you wont accept that people can think the same of some of your views and opinions.  

47 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

OK , first off conjecture seems to work only one way

Not at all I can prove Russia invaded Ukraine you can’t prove NATO controlled by some unelected elite’s controlling it on a worldwide scale made them do it.

To be honest this as always becomes pointless so I'm off to the pub for a beer 👍

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, timps said:

be honest this as always becomes pointless so I'm off to the pub for a beer

You're right, it was. 

Anyway, I need to get the covert wireless set out from the cellar, and make my report to the Kremlin. 

[Mungler]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I need to get the covert wireless set out from the cellar, and make my report to the Kremlin. 

McHughCB has it and has spent today (like everyday) listening to nothing other than Kremlin ‘news’ interspersed with some screeching peoples party ‘news’ from North Korea.

You will have to pick it up on your way home together with the topless photo of Vlad riding a horse, but you’ll probably have to wrestle him for it.

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, Mungler said:

You will have to pick it up on your way home together with the topless photo of Vlad riding a horse, but you’ll probably have to wrestle him for it.

We Russians wrestle for everything, and brush our teeth with vodka, so it won't be a problem comrade 😉

[mchughcb]

11 hours ago, Mungler said:

McHughCB has it and has spent today (like everyday) listening to nothing other than Kremlin ‘news’ interspersed with some screeching peoples party ‘news’ from North Korea.

You will have to pick it up on your way home together with the topless photo of Vlad riding a horse, but you’ll probably have to wrestle him for it.

No moobs is okay with me. 

[islandgun]

Im getting suspicious of the retreats of russian military, hope hes not preparing for the big bang !

[old'un]

16 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Im getting suspicious of the retreats of russian military, hope hes not preparing for the big bang !

That was also my thinking.

[ShootingEgg]

40 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Im getting suspicious of the retreats of russian military, hope hes not preparing for the big bang !

A very scary but possible outcome, if what he has been saying is more than mindless threats

[Mungler]

24 minutes ago, old'un said:

That was also my thinking.

They do rather look like they are clearing out to drop a tactical nuke.

Inside Russia the biggest thugs are scrambling for the top table, the head of Wagner being out in front.

Putin needs a deeper bunker and a longer table.

 

 

5 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

A very scary but possible outcome, if what he has been saying is more than mindless threats

Aside from giving the bully all that he wants (and at the same time the world might as well throw in Finland and Poland) Russia has always had a big stock of nukes, AK47’s and cannon fodder, it’s just that Vlad has painted himself into a corner and it’s go big or go home time.

He remains a master tactician at all times of course 🙄

[mchughcb]

Russia has enough FOAB to drop with a 300m kill zone. They can bring in their strategic bombers and wipe out huge sections if they need to.

With respect to Whataboutery from Mungler, Westmoreland was going to use tactical nukes in Khe Sanh but in the end just with B72 dropping within 500m of the base because of McNamara.

 

 

Nine days before the Tet Offensive broke out, the PAVN opened the battle of Khe Sanh and attacked the US forces just south of the DMZ. Declassified documents show that in response, Westmoreland considered using nuclear weapons. In 1970, the Office of Air Force History published a then "top secret", but now declassified, 106-page report, titled The Air Force in Southeast Asia: Toward a Bombing Halt, 1968. Journalist Richard Ehrlich writes that according to the report, "in late January, General Westmoreland had warned that if the situation near the DMZ and at Khe Sanh worsened drastically, nuclear or chemical weapons might have to be used." The report continues to state, "this prompted Air Force chief of staff, General John McConnell, to press, although unsuccessfully, for JCS (Joint Chiefs of Staff) authority to request Pacific Command to prepare a plan for using low-yield nuclear weapons to prevent a catastrophic loss of the U.S. Marine base."^[70]

Nevertheless, ultimately the nuclear option was discounted by military planners. A secret memorandum reported by US Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, sent to US President Lyndon B. Johnson on 19 February 1968, was declassified in 2005. It reveals that the nuclear option was discounted because of terrain considerations that were unique to South Vietnam, which would have reduced the effectiveness of tactical nuclear weapons. McNamara wrote: "because of terrain and other conditions peculiar to our operations in South Vietnam, it is inconceivable that the use of nuclear weapons would be recommended there against either Viet Cong or North Vietnamese forces". McNamara's thinking may have also been affected by his aide David Morrisroe, whose brother Michael Morrisroe was serving at the base.^[71]

 

 

Battle of Khe Sanh - Wikipedia