Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Dave-G]

4 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

"Not an objective view point" 

Go on then, who put a gun to putins head and forced him to illegally invade Ukraine? 

I know its not addressed to me: nobody but call him Mr. Payback? Though it took 14 years or more of positioning himself in government, sulking, planning, arsenal building, and pretending to be the wests friendly bargain price gas supplier, pipe laying then lying about his military build up on the border.

I'm not saying its that simple or justified - but its about as good as I can figure given both sides have such huge propaganda personnel in overdrive - and on here too. The bit I can't get my head around is why its OK for Russia to send conventional bombs and missiles and troops to Ukraine but not for Ukraine to send anything to Russia.

That seems a bit like it being OK for my neighbour bully to throw bangers into my kitchen window but I'm not allowed to do it back because his dog is bigger than mine. I've got several friends with bigger dogs but I still have to only defend my property because he says he'll get nasty and blow my whole house up and my friends who don't want to risk him blowing theirs up too - all because big Tom down the road says turn the other cheek.

I get its potential Armageddon but the Russian bluff needs to be called because I doubt they will actually risk MAD, and I didn't think I'd be writing this a few months ago.

There's more to this than us mere plebs know about, maybe its a wait till US/NATO has something at least as nasty as Russia has that isn't being discussed anywhere public game.

[mchughcb]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

This isn’t about the UN.

This is about your insistence of an invasion and war being a special military operation.

If you want to consider every UN mission a war or an act of war, I don’t care, fill your boots.

What we have nonetheless arrived at is a war between Russia and Ukraine resulting from Russia’s invasion of the Ukraine.

Now we’ve highlighted the utter the ridiculousness of ‘special military operation’ and debunked that daft fiction I am intrigued to know why you maintained the use of ‘special military operation’. Is that just because the Kremlin told you to?

Did you read the link on US panama invasion or the declaration of war?

 

 

[Mungler]

19 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

Did you read the link on US panama invasion or the declaration of war?

 

 

No, I don’t need to. They are entirely irrelevant to the matters to hand.

 

 

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

There's more to this than us mere plebs know about

That is not necessarily so; it may well be that it is as every bit as simple as it looks.  Russia (well Putin as Russia's Head of State playing the hard man) being the bully and banking on the 'soft' West backing down.  It is alleged that having surrounded himself with 'yes men' (people who gave him bad news didn't get asked again), he was told his troops would be welcomed when they crossed the border and be in power in Kiev in days.  It didn't happen - because he was told what he wanted to hear, not the real situation.

There is an argument that in Russia, human life has a lower 'value' that in the West, so IF there was a mass threatening on human existence - the (softer) West would back down first.

There is also an argument that if Putin backs down, he will be deposed and disgraced and quite likely meet with an 'accident'. - therefore he (personally) has little to lose.

On the other hand, he can't really win; IF and it is a very big IF, he militarily 'conquered' the provinces he has claimed as Russian, there will be continual terrorist activity and it will be near impossible to have a decent 'peace' because too many residents are against it.  At the same time - Russia will suffer severe economic penalties causing unrest at home in Russia.  No more western 'luxuries' and no more easy use of western chips, technology etc.  Europe is no longer going to be dependent on Russian gas and oil - and he has played that card - and it looks like it was a weak card - we will know for sure after the winter.

[Mungler]

If we have a really really cold winter it could well be that all bets are off as the Germans (who idiotically allowed themselves to be manipulated into energy independence on Russia) start to cave in on the sanctions.

But Putin can’t win this war or occupy Ukraine long term and whatever he thought he would get out of it he’s already lost.

And yes, his downfall has been the inherent corruption in all things Russian and the inability of anyone to speak the truth let alone truth to power.

There we go. Talk about a weakened Russia on every level. Great job.

[Stonepark]

59 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

"Not an objective view point" 

Go on then, who put a gun to putins head and forced him to illegally invade Ukraine? 

No one put a gun to Putin's head, sometimes you just have to do the right thing from your point of view.

 

[Mungler]

7 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

No one put a gun to Putin's head, sometimes you just have to do the right thing from your point of view.

 

Yeah sack off discussion, negotiation or any peaceful / non military solution and go straight for invasion, that’s always going to be the right thing to do.

Well, I hope he’s enjoying what he started. I know the Yanks are.

[Stonepark]

58 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Yeah sack off discussion, negotiation or any peaceful / non military solution and go straight for invasion, that’s always going to be the right thing to do.

Well, I hope he’s enjoying what he started. I know the Yanks are.

So the Minsk 1 & 2 negotiations and agreements weren't a peaceful attempt to solve the issue... Remind us who decided not to implement them... Hint...It wasn't the seperarists of Donbass or the Russians that decided to back track on the agreements and keep shelling the Donbass as well as refusing to accept the self governing of the Donbass....

The Yanks are not happy... They thought Ukraine would be well within the NATO and EU umbrella by now... They are going to be even less happy shortly, now that Russia is ramping up into full war mode and not just a SMO.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Stonepark

[Mungler]

30 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

So the Minsk 1 & 2 negotiations and agreements weren't a peaceful attempt to solve the issue... Remind us who decided not to implement them... Hint...It wasn't the seperarists of Donbass or the Russians that decided to back track on the agreements and keep shelling the Donbass as well as refusing to accept the self governing of the Donbass....

The Yanks are not happy... They thought Ukraine would be well within the NATO and EU umbrella by now... They are going to be even less happy shortly, now that Russia is ramping up into full war mode and not just a SMO.

That’s right there was no other alternative but an invasion and war 🙄

We’ll see. The Putin apologists have got nothing right so far, and long may that continue.

[Stonepark]

13 minutes ago, Mungler said:

That’s right there was no other alternative but an invasion and war 🙄

We’ll see. The Putin apologists have got nothing right so far, and long may that continue.

The alternative was to stand aside as the Ukranian Government sent Nazi troops into the separatist regions to take them back by force and the genocide that would have went with it... I suppose that would have made you happy.....?

People can only make decisions based on information available, at the beginning of March people weren't able to forsee NATO supporting Ukraine to the extent they have, including ruining most of the European economies. Whilst those sacrifices have bought Ukraine 6 months, they are now no better off than they would have been without the additional heavy equipment with a lot more dead to get to the same point of capitulation.

As I have mentioned before, if Ukraine had not been resupplied with all the heavy weapon donations, it would have been defeated militarily already as it ran out of equipment.

 

[mchughcb]

3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

That is not necessarily so; it may well be that it is as every bit as simple as it looks.  Russia (well Putin as Russia's Head of State playing the hard man) being the bully and banking on the 'soft' West backing down.  It is alleged that having surrounded himself with 'yes men' (people who gave him bad news didn't get asked again), he was told his troops would be welcomed when they crossed the border and be in power in Kiev in days.  It didn't happen - because he was told what he wanted to hear, not the real situation.

There is an argument that in Russia, human life has a lower 'value' that in the West, so IF there was a mass threatening on human existence - the (softer) West would back down first.

There is also an argument that if Putin backs down, he will be deposed and disgraced and quite likely meet with an 'accident'. - therefore he (personally) has little to lose.

On the other hand, he can't really win; IF and it is a very big IF, he militarily 'conquered' the provinces he has claimed as Russian, there will be continual terrorist activity and it will be near impossible to have a decent 'peace' because too many residents are against it.  At the same time - Russia will suffer severe economic penalties causing unrest at home in Russia.  No more western 'luxuries' and no more easy use of western chips, technology etc.  Europe is no longer going to be dependent on Russian gas and oil - and he has played that card - and it looks like it was a weak card - we will know for sure after the winter.

Well history shows a different outcome about continued terrorist activity.

Crimea voted in a referendum and was at peace for 8 years. Chechnya has also been at peace for the last decade.

The referendums that were held showed the majority wanted to join Russian federation and they are handing out Russian passports giving greater opportunities to everyone. Very smart move. 

 

Was America offering passports to all Afghans or Iraqis? Nope. They just had to run for their lives as collaborators.

 

3 hours ago, Mungler said:

No, I don’t need to. They are entirely irrelevant to the matters to hand.

 

 

I thought you would want to educate yourself but I was wrong.

Edited October 12, 2022 by mchughcb

[mchughcb]

3 hours ago, Mungler said:

If we have a really really cold winter it could well be that all bets are off as the Germans (who idiotically allowed themselves to be manipulated into energy independence on Russia) start to cave in on the sanctions.

But Putin can’t win this war or occupy Ukraine long term and whatever he thought he would get out of it he’s already lost.

And yes, his downfall has been the inherent corruption in all things Russian and the inability of anyone to speak the truth let alone truth to power.

There we go. Talk about a weakened Russia on every level. Great job.

And they say there was almost a negotiated peace deal in March until Boris stepped in. Now Boris is gone, just like Cameron after Brexit with no idea to smooth out the mess they started. And here we are.

[Mungler]

You two don’t half spout a lot of nonsense.

I am amazed that you actually believe it.

They say a deal was nearly there but for Boris. Who says? Your Kremlin puppeteers?

If Ukraine had not been resupplied it would have been over? I don’t get how you can actually type those words out and not pause to think how bizarre they are. Straight off the Kremlin website. But now we see Russia being re-supplied as it runs out of bombs to randomly drop on civilians.

 

[old'un]

Is this a good idea at this time?..https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/11/nato-chief-says-long-planned-nuclear-exercises-to-go-ahead

[welsh1]

20 minutes ago, old'un said:

Is this a good idea at this time?..https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/11/nato-chief-says-long-planned-nuclear-exercises-to-go-ahead

Would you rather they didn't train and lost their edge?

These are yearly exercises ,and are even more relevant given putins threats, it sends a message that Nato are at a state of rediness and well trained.

[Mice!]

Well I've just skipped 5 pages, as it's just the usual merry-go-round of the same comments, Russia should leave, not NATO fault for supplying the Ukraine,  there is or isn't a deal?

Russia won't need to occupy areas they've flattened,  Ukraine is likely to end up looking like Syria,  but that's OK so long as the West stands up to the Russian bully.

When, not if Germany start buying Russian gas, what is the West going to do about that??

The only thing that is going to come from thus is more destruction in the Ukraine,  while other countries look on moving pieces around the board.

[old'un]

27 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Would you rather they didn't train and lost their edge?

These are yearly exercises ,and are even more relevant given putins threats, it sends a message that Nato are at a state of rediness and well trained.

I hardly think the west is showing a weakness, but is this a case of poking the dog.

[ShootingEgg]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

Well I've just skipped 5 pages, as it's just the usual merry-go-round of the same comments, Russia should leave, not NATO fault for supplying the Ukraine,  there is or isn't a deal?

Russia won't need to occupy areas they've flattened,  Ukraine is likely to end up looking like Syria,  but that's OK so long as the West stands up to the Russian bully.

When, not if Germany start buying Russian gas, what is the West going to do about that??

The only thing that is going to come from thus is more destruction in the Ukraine,  while other countries look on moving pieces around the board.

A very sad but fair assesment of the situation.. posturing at its best at the moment. The only thing that will stop Russia is Putin actually being very sick and passing away and then the people around him changing their position..

[mchughcb]

Looks like the US wants russian aluminium off the menu.

Well is there anything left to sanction?

[welsh1]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

Well I've just skipped 5 pages, as it's just the usual merry-go-round of the same comments, Russia should leave, not NATO fault for supplying the Ukraine,  there is or isn't a deal?

Russia won't need to occupy areas they've flattened,  Ukraine is likely to end up looking like Syria,  but that's OK so long as the West stands up to the Russian bully.

When, not if Germany start buying Russian gas, what is the West going to do about that??

The only thing that is going to come from thus is more destruction in the Ukraine,  while other countries look on moving pieces around the board.

So should other countries do nothing, watch ukraine citizens get slaughtered and let russia take control of ukraine?

Do we then do nothing if russia decides to invade hungary, slovakia,romania etc because he knows that other countries will not oppose him?

Where is the line in the sand?

[mchughcb]

Just now, ShootingEgg said:

A very sad but fair assesment of the situation.. posturing at its best at the moment. The only thing that will stop Russia is Putin actually being very sick and passing away and then the people around him changing their position..

Lol, how long did Mugabe live, 95?

2 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

So should other countries do nothing, watch ukraine citizens get slaughtered and let russia take control of ukraine?

Do we then do nothing if russia decides to invade hungary, slovakia,romania etc because he knows that other countries will not oppose him?

Where is the line in the sand?

Mehhh. If they are so concerned why don't they declare war on Russia and put boots on the ground.

[ShootingEgg]

Just now, mchughcb said:

Lol, how long did Mugabe live, 95?

I know, but realistically who has the nuts to drop a payload into Russia... Anything the 'west' do he will retaliate and three fold... It's a proper stinker of a situation.. with no real definitive answer

[welsh1]

51 minutes ago, old'un said:

I hardly think the west is showing a weakness, but is this a case of poking the dog.

More a case of warning putin that there will be severe consequences should he decide on the stupid option.

[mchughcb]

Just now, ShootingEgg said:

I know, but realistically who has the nuts to drop a payload into Russia... Anything the 'west' do he will retaliate and three fold... It's a proper stinker of a situation.. with no real definitive answer

Plenty of Brits came back to the UK because of Mugabe. Maybe NATO should have declared war on him with all the killiings? Instead the place just turned into a corrupted basket case. I used to have a billion dollar note that I pinned to my office wall. 

[Mice!]

5 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

So should other countries do nothing, watch ukraine citizens get slaughtered and let russia take control of ukraine?

Do we then do nothing if russia decides to invade hungary, slovakia,romania etc because he knows that other countries will not oppose him?

Where is the line in the sand?

I'd say that's exactly what's going on,  except the Ukraine are being given weapons and aid, meanwhile the Ukraine continues to suffer, while the world watches on.

Everyone seems pretty sure Putin won't invade a NATO country, why would he?