Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Newbie to this]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

A serious question would be why you put no limits on how far back in history we go. Should those that walked out of Africa and took over neanderthal territory give it back and return to Africa? If not then there are questions over whether we can stop any human from stepping onto any land colonised by other humans no matter what colour their flag is. 

 

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

It is a bit like the woke brigade, who ignore current slavery or slavery before this country was involved. They select a period of history which suits their purpose. 

Same situation here. Mungler has argued his case on the present time - which I agree with, but some want to rewind a few years to put Russia in a better light. Whatever went on hundreds of years ago or 20 years ago, doesn't make Putin less of a warmonger than he is.

 

49 minutes ago, Mungler said:

 

Bang on.

 

So how long before we forgive Russia's transgressions.

Hypocrisy is hypocrisy.

West brings freedom, Russia brings death and destruction. News flash, so did the west.

What Russia is doing is abhorrent, but equally, so is what the west did, bringing freedom to those that never wished for it.

Anyway we have some referendums being held today so we shall see what the Ukrainians want, just like we saw what the Iraqis and Afgahns wanted, right.

I don't see a peaceful end to this conflict. I only see it ending if the Russian people end it, and I don't mean those in charge.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Newbie to this

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Newbie to this said:

 

 

So how long before we forgive Russia's transgressions.

Hypocrisy is hypocrisy.

West brings freedom, Russia brings death and destruction. News flash, so did the west.

What Russia is doing is abhorrent, but equally, so is what the west did, bringing freedom to those that never wished for it. You don't know that.

Anyway we have some referendums being held today so we shall see what the Ukrainians want, just like we saw what the Iraqis and Afgahns wanted, right. They might be called that by the Ruskies but they are not they are simply statements of how the Ruskies would like to see a referendum if ever one was organised.

I don't see a peaceful end to this conflict. I only see it ending if the Russian people end it, and I don't mean those in charge. Or Ukraine wears them down. Or the West Ends it.

 

[Newbie to this]

32 minutes ago, oowee said:

You don't know that.

And neither did the West know the opposite when they invaded, but it didn't stop the invasion, same as it didn't stop the Russians.

 

32 minutes ago, oowee said:

They might be called that by the Ruskies but they are not they are simply statements of how the Ruskies would like to see a referendum if ever one was organised.

Yes, hence the "right" at the end of the statement, the outcome will be what the Russians want, just like the outcome of the elections in Iraq and Afghanistan were rigged.

 

32 minutes ago, oowee said:

Or Ukraine wears them down.

And the Russians just regroup and begin again, or worse.

32 minutes ago, oowee said:

Or the West Ends it.

Never going to happen, unless you mean the West stops supplying the Ukrainians.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Newbie to this

[Mungler]

Raking over where the West went wrong over two decades ago in the Middle East - all interesting stuff to note but not determinative or a precedent on how we must approach the situation to hand.

Save for the risk of the world being turned to glass, it’s still heading in the right direction for Ukraine who have done a great deal more than anyone ever reckoned for, particularly Putin.

[Dave-G]

19 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Raking over where the West went wrong over two decades ago in the Middle East - all interesting stuff to note but not determinative or a precedent on how we must approach the situation to hand.

Save for the risk of the world being turned to glass, it’s still heading in the right direction for Ukraine who have done a great deal more than anyone ever reckoned for, particularly Putin.

Hmm, As much as Russia doesn't want NATO getting any closer - its fair to assume NATO won't stand for Russia getting closer to them either. I'm thinking its better for both to keep Ukraine between the bulk of NATO - even though Ukraine is US backed.

[Mungler]

57 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Hmm, As much as Russia doesn't want NATO getting any closer - its fair to assume NATO won't stand for Russia getting closer to them either. I'm thinking its better for both to keep Ukraine between the bulk of NATO - even though Ukraine is US backed.

If you look at all the countries that actually pay their NATO subs in full and more, they are the minor countries close to / on the borders with Russia all in fear of Russian expansion. Drawing a line with Ukraine maintains the NATO buffer and in the same way the Americans conducted a proxy war against Germany through Britain in WW2, running a proxy war through Ukraine to weaken Russia is a no brainer provided NATO does not directly invoke itself and risk turning the world to glass.

In other news it looks like the draft is going down a storm in Russia. Who knew, but it turns out no Russians want to go to Ukraine for no good reason and risk permanent injury or death. 

 

[mchughcb]

So referendums are held if people want to join Russia federation just like Brexit so be it.

What happens next, is NATO will continue to support a non NATO country fighting a state that decided to join a Russian federation.

 

[timps]

I don’t remember soldiers coming to my door asking me to verbally state my preference on brexit. Maybe the brexit  outcome would have been different if pro European troops had asked the British public at gunpoint.  
 

NATO will continue to support a sovereign nation that was invaded and wishes to fight the aggressor nothing more.
 

If you believe that it should be a civil war with no outside agitators then fair enough. However that means Russia must not be involved. If you believe outside agitators are allowed then why is NATO bad Russia good. Last time I looked there wasn’t any NATO troops on the ground however there are Russian ones.  If Russia had just supplied equipment like NATO then this would have been over by now. 
 

 

[mchughcb]

55 minutes ago, timps said:

I don’t remember soldiers coming to my door asking me to verbally state my preference on brexit. Maybe the brexit  outcome would have been different if pro European troops had asked the British public at gunpoint.  
 

NATO will continue to support a sovereign nation that was invaded and wishes to fight the aggressor nothing more.
 

If you believe that it should be a civil war with no outside agitators then fair enough. However that means Russia must not be involved. If you believe outside agitators are allowed then why is NATO bad Russia good. Last time I looked there wasn’t any NATO troops on the ground however there are Russian ones.  If Russia had just supplied equipment like NATO then this would have been over by now. 
 

 

Are you saying that soldiers are forcing people at gunpoint to vote in the referendum? Sounds a bit silly to me. I would just let them to stay at home at get the soldiers to fill out the forms themselves save time and money.

NATO has been supplying training and arms for 8 years to Ukraine in its civil war. 

I don't remember Russia conducting military exercises in Ukraine but I certainly certainly remember NATO conducting exercises in a non NATO country with troops on the ground last year. A country that was already engaged in a civil war.

 

 

 

[mchughcb]

1 hour ago, timps said:

NATO will continue to support a sovereign nation that was invaded and wishes to fight the aggressor nothing more.
 

 

Exactly, which is why NATO has been supporting Al Nusra (a declared terrorist organisation) against the Syrian Government in Syria because its okay when they do it.

If you need reminding it was the Russian's that broke 4 year siege of Aleppo with Al Nusra who was supported by NATO.

 

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, mchughcb said:

Are you saying that soldiers are forcing people at gunpoint to vote in the referendum? Sounds a bit silly to me. I would just let them to stay at home at get the soldiers to fill out the forms themselves save time and money.

NATO has been supplying training and arms for 8 years to Ukraine in its civil war. 

I don't remember Russia conducting military exercises in Ukraine but I certainly certainly remember NATO conducting exercises in a non NATO country with troops on the ground last year. A country that was already engaged in a civil war.

 

 

 

I don’t even know where to start. If you are saying that you believe these upcoming referendums will be free and fair, then you have just revealed yourself to be either deranged, a true Russian shill or both. 

As for NATO assistance to Ukraine, that country is free to seek and receive assistance and training from anywhere it wants. When Ukraine broke from the USSR, took independence to go it alone, well the only arrangement they will be kicking themselves over was giving up their nukes. Indeed, if they had their nukes no doubt Putin would have picked on an easier target like all bullies. That said, I think we can all agree that if Putin knew back in December what he knows now, he wouldn’t have bothered to invade and go to war with Ukraine eh? 

 

 

[mchughcb]

Derangement = Russian Shrill.

Ok, I seem to have got that bit.

 

[Mungler]

10 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

Derangement = Russian Shrill.

Ok, I seem to have got that bit.

 

If you think there’s going to be a free and open vote run by Russia (and without external monitoring), well, that’s like trying to argue with a flat earther - where to start? Why even bother? Too far gone down the rabbit hole for anything other than pro Russian propaganda.

[mchughcb]

3 minutes ago, Mungler said:

If you think there’s going to be a free and open vote run by Russia (and without external monitoring), well, that’s like trying to argue with a flat earther - where to start? Why even bother? Too far gone down the rabbit hole for anything other than pro Russian propaganda.

Whilst you might find this hard to believe, people who live in those oblasts, in particularly Lugansk and Donetsk may actually want to become part of the Russian federation. If they want to go I say let them.  If you say, no they should be bombed back into the stone age because Ukraine, backed by with NATO weapons said so, then that sounds entirely reasonable too.

 

[mchughcb]

People out to vote for their future.

 

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, mchughcb said:

People out to vote for their future.

Or move.

[henry d]

4 hours ago, mchughcb said:

*error * something went wrong *Henry d*

12 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Hypocrisy is hypocrisy

Absolutely, but you are comparing different things. If the UK had annexed a country then we would be able to make comparisons. If you want all aggression and war to stop, then we are on the same page, but unfortunately someone has to be mummy when the kids start fighting and someone gets a smacked bottom.

4 hours ago, mchughcb said:

...gunpoint to vote in the referendum?

Not gunpoint but they are going door to door which is intimidating at the least. Free and fair election?

34 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

Whilst you might find this hard to believe, people who live in those oblasts, in particularly Lugansk and Donetsk may actually want to become part of the Russian federation. If they want to go I say let them.  If you say, no they should be bombed back into the stone age because Ukraine, backed by with NATO weapons said so, then that sounds entirely reasonable too.

 

I think you are putting words in people's mouths, in such circumstances where the referendums have come out of nowhere and are of such importance you need to question why they didn't happen before the special operation began, why now, and why can't there be observers in place?

Edited September 24, 2022 by henry d

[oowee]

12 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

People out to vote for their future.

 

Interesting video. There are no men to vote as they are all fighting. Millions have already left in fear. 

More lies than a Brexit vote 

[henry d]

It looks like the reports of soldiers going door to door are correct however what is also worrying in the same report is the wording and what languages the referendum papers are in and the report of queues at the Russian-Georgian border. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63013356

[mchughcb]

3 minutes ago, henry d said:

It looks like the reports of soldiers going door to door are correct however what is also worrying in the same report is the wording and what languages the referendum papers are in and the report of queues at the Russian-Georgian border. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63013356

Yes, probably because people are too old, maybe they have lost power in their apartments and can't get the news. So the pictures they show are soldiers voting, and the ballot boxes are under armed guard. The places where to vote have been are not widely publicised except locally because it would make them a target for shelling. Far enough.

This inference that people are being forced at gun point to vote in the referendum to join the Russian Federation is right up there with the BS that Russia was shelling it the nuclear powerplant it had security in every day as a false flag. The western media couldn't just be honest and say the shells were coming across the river by the Ukrainians and if they want to keep shelling the powerstation fair enough but to put a spin on it that Russians would keep shelling the powerplant day after day with their security forces in there shows how stupid people really are to believe such BS.

[mchughcb]

22 minutes ago, oowee said:

Interesting video. There are no men to vote as they are all fighting. Millions have already left in fear. 

More lies than a Brexit vote 

There are men in the line, he's just focusing on the women. Maybe the men didn't want to talk on camera. The post Henry D put up has pictures of militia going into vote.

Here's plenty of men voting. Seems quite organized.

 

Seem

[mchughcb]

34 minutes ago, henry d said:

I think you are putting words in people's mouths, in such circumstances where the referendums have come out of nowhere and are of such importance you need to question why they didn't happen before the special operation began, why now, and why can't there be observers in place?

From the scant reporting coming out of there, looks like there are plenty of observers and officials to conduct the referendum. If you want external observers what country should they come from UK, USA, China, North Korea, Somalia?

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

If you think there’s going to be a free and open vote run by Russia (and without external monitoring), well, that’s like trying to argue with a flat earther - where to start? Why even bother? Too far gone down the rabbit hole for anything other than pro Russian propaganda.

External monitoring from which country? 

Derangement = Russian Shrill = Flat Earther. Keep them coming.

[Raja Clavata]

As well as using the buses as a polling station are they also used to ship Russians in from across the border to vote?

[mchughcb]

Given how many Russians left Crimea after the air base was blown up I'd say why bother. If you want to rig it, then just get the soldiers to fill out whatever you want.  It will be interesting, I'd say Donetsk and Lugansk may vote yes. Not so sure about the other Oblasts but you never know.

[Gordon R]

Got to love the videos, with happy smiling voters playing up to the camera. You would never know there is a war going on. 

If anyone is convinced by the videos, can I suggest you seek medical help.