Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[timps]

16 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

That doesn't really carry weight if all they had to do was switch it off, or complain a turbines broken? 

And don't forget hitting a NATO members pipeline, would bring instant blame to Russia instantly. 

28 minutes ago, timps said:

Why their own pipeline?  well blowing up their own pipeline isn’t going to cause WWIII if actually caught

Lets not forget, Nordstram is only 51 % owned by Russia, its a joint venture between the EU and them, a deal they were happy to enter into. Which kind of nullifies the whole act of war thing, unless it was another party completely unconnected with said deal? 

Maybe a party that never really liked those pipes? 

 

Ahhh but the joys of me now being a fully fledged conspiracy theorist is that I don’t have to prove I’m right you have to prove I’m wrong.

They could argue that they only blew up their share of the pipeline.

Ohh who stands to benefit / lose if caught

Russia benefits and if caught lose nothing as we aren’t going to start WWIII over it…

USA they benefit  but heck they will lose a lot if they are found out ….

Ukraine they benefit but they will certainly  lose everything  if caught ….

So balance of probabilities it’s Russia ….I like this conspiracy no proof angle of debate it’s fun….😜

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

The stark fact is that the Japanese leaders, both military and civilian, including the emperor, were willing to surrender in May of 1945 if the emperor could remain in place and not be subjected to a war crimes trial after the war. This fact became known to President Truman as early as May of 1945. The Japanese monarchy was one of the oldest in all of history, dating back to 660 BC. The Japanese religion added the belief that all the emperors were the direct descendants of the sun goddess, Amaterasu.

The reigning Emperor Hirohito was the 124th in the direct line of descent. After the bombs were dropped on August 6 and 9 of 1945, and their surrender soon thereafter, the Japanese were allowed to keep their emperor on the throne and he was not subjected to any war crimes trial. The emperor, Hirohito, came on the throne in 1926 and continued in his position until his death in 1989. Since President Truman, in effect, accepted the conditional surrender offered by the Japanese as early as May of 1945, the question is posed, "Why then were the bombs dropped?"

 

I need no history lectures, as I am aware of the situation and varying opinion. That said, you were factually wrong. Just admit it and move on without trying to re-write history to suit your inaccurate post.

[armsid]

Merkel signed the EU to buy Russian gas and then shut down the nuclear power stations which will take a long time if they can be put back into use. If the war ends tomorrow, Ukraine could take 2 years to get back to normal meaning wheat being in short supply which Russia knows and with gas not flowing the EU economy and of course pensions etc. living standards will be affected. Strange how this happened 2 years after Covid caused so much impact on our lives

[Rewulf]

44 minutes ago, timps said:

Ahhh but the joys of me now being a fully fledged conspiracy theorist is that I don’t have to prove I’m right you have to prove I’m wrong.

The err, joy of conspiracy theories, is that 99% of the time, nothing ever gets proved, you either accept the mainstream narrative, or you believe that something different happened. 

Then someone will pipe up and call you flat earther who believes the world is run by lizards, when you don't at all 😂

48 minutes ago, timps said:

Russia benefits and if caught lose nothing as we aren’t going to start WWIII over it…

USA they benefit  but heck they will lose a lot if they are found out ….

Ukraine they benefit but they will certainly  lose everything  if caught ….

Not sure how you arrive at Russia benefitting, in what way? No one believes a thing they say? 

The US will never admit it had anything to do with it, and very few people would argue with them, there could be videos of them dropping depth charges on the pipes, and no one would bat an eyelid. 

Ukraine likely didn't do it, but haven't got much to lose if they did, watch the oil and gas pipes going through Ukraine go up next, and more accusations the Russians did it. 

 

[timps]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Not sure how you arrive at Russia benefitting, in what way? 

By destabilising the west as outlined per my original conspiracy post, do keep up . 🙄😜

 Unless the false flag accusations can only be attributed to the western and Ukrainian forces and not the Russians. 
 

And plenty believe what the Russians  say on this thread. 
 

 

[mchughcb]

2 hours ago, timps said:

Ahhh but the joys of me now being a fully fledged conspiracy theorist is that I don’t have to prove I’m right you have to prove I’m wrong.

They could argue that they only blew up their share of the pipeline.

Ohh who stands to benefit / lose if caught

Russia benefits and if caught lose nothing as we aren’t going to start WWIII over it…

USA they benefit  but heck they will lose a lot if they are found out ….

Ukraine they benefit but they will certainly  lose everything  if caught ….

So balance of probabilities it’s Russia ….I like this conspiracy no proof angle of debate it’s fun….😜

You can also believe what you want to believe. The USA will lose exactly what?

1 hour ago, timps said:

By destabilising the west as outlined per my original conspiracy post, do keep up . 🙄😜

 Unless the false flag accusations can only be attributed to the western and Ukrainian forces and not the Russians. 
 

And plenty believe what the Russians  say on this thread. 
 

 

The old black and white view of life. I rarely see this in ever day life but people's opinions of Lizard people has me questioning that too. Maybe life is so black and white.

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, timps said:

By destabilising the west as outlined per my original conspiracy post, do keep up . 🙄😜

How can Russia destabilise the West, when the West doesn't believe a word they say? 

And that isn't a conspiracy, its fact. And it doesn't matter who on here thinks Russia tells the truth, virtually the entire western world has seen Russia as the de facto enemy their entire lives. 

They will believe the government and media, who will tell them Russia destroyed their own pipeline, even though they can't think of any sensible reason why they would do such a thing. 

[Dave-G]

Lets not forget a new rival pipeline competitor has just emerged in that vicinity ...

[mchughcb]

It's amazing, almost like it was planned.

[welsh1]

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

They will believe the government and media, who will tell them Russia destroyed their own pipeline, even though they can't think of any sensible reason why they would do such a thing. 

Whoever destroyed that pipeline has shown they have the capability to destroy anything in the seabed, like data cables, internet,power,oil gas ,now who would want the rest of the world to know it has the capability to severely disrupt other countries trading capabilities and heating capabilities?

I can't think of anyone that would want to send that type of threat to the west can you?

[Mungler]

11 hours ago, timps said:

Ahhh but the joys of me now being a fully fledged conspiracy theorist is that I don’t have to prove I’m right you have to prove I’m wrong.

Ain’t that the truth of it.

I have this ready on cut and paste.

That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
Christopher Hitchens

 

 

[Mungler]

8 hours ago, Rewulf said:

How can Russia destabilise the West, when the West doesn't believe a word they say? 

And that isn't a conspiracy, its fact. And it doesn't matter who on here thinks Russia tells the truth, virtually the entire western world has seen Russia as the de facto enemy their entire lives. 

They will believe the government and media, who will tell them Russia destroyed their own pipeline, even though they can't think of any sensible reason why they would do such a thing. 

Quite often it’s done for internal propaganda. Indeed, we forget that Putin’s biggest battle is likely to be internal to Russia.

Someone I know has just returned and relocated from Russia. Says anyone under 40 has a modern outlook, sees themselves as westernised and aren’t happy. Anyone over 45 drinks and loves the hard can take anything image and is utterly brainwashed by a lifetime of state media and restricted education / access to the internet.

In short, the stereotypes are true.

His view was that there’s no chance of anyone nobbling Putin because the over 45 knuckle draggers and the high volume of rural knuckle draggers love him and believe every word of the state media brainwashing. 

[timps]

8 hours ago, Rewulf said:

How can Russia destabilise the West, when the West doesn't believe a word they say? 

And that isn't a conspiracy, its fact. And it doesn't matter who on here thinks Russia tells the truth, virtually the entire western world has seen Russia as the de facto enemy their entire lives. 

They will believe the government and media, who will tell them Russia destroyed their own pipeline, even though they can't think of any sensible reason why they would do such a thing. 

I think the irony of my last couple of posts is being lost, as stated I am now taking up the zero proof let’s just post conspiracy’s stance.  It just seems I am only meant do this against the views of the MSM though.

I don’t know who has blown up the pipeline but I can find plenty of unsubstantiated opinion pieces for a Russian motive all to do with destabilising the west’s resolve. Some quite plausible, some maybe not, but all I have to do with my new found no proof freedom is throw enough of them at this thread, I don’t  actually have to believe any of them just a belief in it has to be Russia, it’s a conspiracy to say otherwise.

However my first point was “sabre rattling to the EU if the rumoured further economic sanctions are applied they can hit other pipelines from other countries.”

Welsh1 extrapolates that point more eloquently in the post above and it is certainly plausible.

9 hours ago, mchughcb said:

The USA will lose exactly what?

As to what the USA has to lose, we’ll if the alternative view posted on here that Russia would not attack a NATO member’s pipeline for fear of NATO retaliation, then surely it stands to reason a NATO member attacking a fellow NATO member’s pipeline would destabilise NATO to the same extent.

It certainly would cause a diplomatic incident and sour relations.

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Quite often it’s done for internal propaganda. Indeed, we forget that Putin’s biggest battle is likely to be internal to Russia.

Someone I know has just returned and relocated from Russia. Says anyone under 40 has a modern outlook, sees themselves as westernised and aren’t happy. Anyone over 45 drinks and loves the hard can take anything image and is utterly brainwashed by a lifetime of state media and restricted education / access to the internet.

In short, the stereotypes are true.

His view was that there’s no chance of anyone nobbling Putin because the over 45 knuckle draggers and the high volume of rural knuckle draggers love him and believe every word of the state media brainwashing. 

Sounds just like the UK doesn't it.

Majority over 45 with assets and life experience vote conservative and for stability, whilst the young vote mostly for liberal woke Greens, Libdem and Labour and their fantasies which periodically wreck the country.

 

21 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

At the end of the day, who cares who blew up the pipeline, the cause of all this is an illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine. 

The cause of all of this was an illegal coup in Ukraine, everything else has just followed......

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, welsh1 said:

Whoever destroyed that pipeline has shown they have the capability to destroy anything in the seabed, like data cables, internet,power,oil gas ,now who would want the rest of the world to know it has the capability to severely disrupt other countries trading capabilities and heating capabilities?

I'm sorry, but I think you're being a tiny bit naive there, dropping some  timed explosives over the side of a boat, ship, helicopter or plane, isn't  a revolution in warfare. 

The will to do it has always been the question, and obviously where to drop them, but everyone knows the rough location, and if you put enough down, you're sure to hit them somewhere, it's the blatency of it that troubles me. 

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
Christopher Hitchens

Wise words, but it seems to be a one way street when it comes to this subject. 

 

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

In short, the stereotypes are true.

I don't doubt it for a minute, I would however revise it to the under 30s having the modern outlook, the majority of Russian males do tend to be pretty rude and obnoxious types, with an inherent machismo attitude. 

 

16 minutes ago, timps said:

However my first point was “sabre rattling to the EU if the rumoured further economic sanctions are applied they can hit other pipelines from other countries.

The irony wasn't lost, it just didn't bring anything useful to the debate. 

What will you say if no western pipelines get hit, but more Russian ones do? 

18 minutes ago, timps said:

As to what the USA has to lose, we’ll if the alternative view posted on here that Russia would not attack a NATO member’s pipeline for fear of NATO retaliation, then surely it stands to reason a NATO member attacking a fellow NATO member’s pipeline would destabilise NATO to the same extent.

It certainly would cause a diplomatic incident and sour relations

Not if they agreed to the action 'for the greater good' They weren't getting any gas out the pipes anyway, so nothing is lost, there is some waffle about environmental damage from the methane, but it's not relevant, and pure misdirection {look Russias destroying the environment too!} 

The location of the damage is very significant, its certainly repairable, but only if the US/NATO/EU, LET  it be repaired.... 

The days of Russian gas and oil use are not over, the prospect of all that wealth just sitting there will make sure of it, western elites just want to make sure they can have a big slice of it, so they need more control of how its supplied and sold. 

Compare the situation to Venezuela, where repeated attempts by the US to change the regime to something they can control, have so far met with failure, so they've sanctioned a massively oil rich country so hard, they can barely feed themselves. 

Now tell me that {ultimately} its not about money and power. 

[Stonepark]

21 hours ago, serrac said:

The thing is, if the US did this then it's effectively an act of war against Europe.
 

Be careful thinking this is no big deal folks -- you're likely very wrong about that."

Karl Denninger

But the USA doesn't see it as war but rescuing Europe from Russian grasp and 'Reds under the bed' fantasies.

Every country with a grievance has now got de facto permission to attack international infrastructure, previously they were off limits but now they are legitimate targets.....!

[timps]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

What will you say if no western pipelines get hit, but more Russian ones do? 

The same as every conspiracy theorist does when confronted with hard questions, either.

a) Nothing 

b) it’s a false fag conspiracy by the Russians they are trying to blame the west. You’ve fallen for it.

 

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Not if they agreed to the action 'for the greater good'

 ok so two answers to this as well. 
a) what if they didn’t ?

b) why would they do this ? 

Western elites blowing up a pipe line that supplies them by convincing NATO to agree and carry out this action, all joking aside you actually believe that ?

You’d definitely have more credibility if you blamed the CIA.

You are right it is all about money and power that’s exactly why Putin invaded Ukraine. 

[Rem260]

12 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The err, joy of conspiracy theories, is that 99% of the time, nothing ever gets proved, you either accept the mainstream narrative, or you believe that something different happened. 

Then someone will pipe up and call you flat earther who believes the world is run by lizards, when you don't at all 😂

Not sure how you arrive at Russia benefitting, in what way? No one believes a thing they say? 

The US will never admit it had anything to do with it, and very few people would argue with them, there could be videos of them dropping depth charges on the pipes, and no one would bat an eyelid. 

Ukraine likely didn't do it, but haven't got much to lose if they did, watch the oil and gas pipes going through Ukraine go up next, and more accusations the Russians did it. 

 

Watch some country invade Ukraine and more accusations the Russians did it.

[Penelope]

18 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I think its very important who blew up the pipeline, what if it wasn't Russia, or Ukraine? 

Bearing in mind no one can think of any tactical or economic advantage why Russia would do it, everyone's going a bit quiet on this, and whistling to themselves in an innocent manner 😂

And if it was Ukraine, they must have had it sanctioned by NATO  first? 

Aaaand if it was NATO.... 

No doubt in the end, it'll just get left as one of those dark clouds that drift away from peoples attention, to be quietly forgotten, like who was really shelling the power station, or mass graves, massacres? 

I mean, in all seriousness, I'd like to see this over, and the Russians to leave, some kind of peace restored... But the powers that be seem to keep upping the ante, and western defence budgets are climbing... Ask yourself, do we want to go all out, conventional or otherwise, can we afford it economically? 

I'm struggling to think of anyone else Gordon to be honest, and my 'war' history is pretty concise? 

I think he means the Japanese were not a defeated nation at the time of the dropping.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, timps said:

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

What will you say if no western pipelines get hit, but more Russian ones do? 

The same as every conspiracy theorist does when confronted with hard questions, either.

a) Nothing Which , to the glee of those asking the 'hard' questions, is just the 'answer ' theyre looking for.

b) it’s a false fag conspiracy by the Russians they are trying to blame the west. You’ve fallen for it. As I said , that only works if someone believes you.

 

1 hour ago, timps said:

ok so two answers to this as well. 
a) what if they didn’t ?

b) why would they do this ? 

Western elites blowing up a pipe line that supplies them by convincing NATO to agree and carry out this action, all joking aside you actually believe that ?

You’d definitely have more credibility if you blamed the CIA.

You dont have credibility if youre a conspiracy theorist right , arent we playing anymore ?

Do I think the west took out the pipeline, yes , it makes far more sense than Russia blowing it up to somehow send a message that they can blow pipelines up !
And who are the CIA , theyre just a tool for doing a job , are you suggesting they are a separate entity with their own agenda ?
Thou doth watch too many movies.

1 hour ago, timps said:

You are right it is all about money and power that’s exactly why Putin invaded Ukraine. 

Eh , what does Ukraine have that he needed ?

1 minute ago, Penelope said:

I think he means the Japanese were not a defeated nation at the time of the dropping.

Ah , that again is highly debateable, Japans spirit was not defeated , but militarily ....
They had virtually no fuel for planes or shipping, the raw materials for making ammunition were nearly depleted, food production was minimal.
The impunity with which B29 bomber raids were systematically levelling the mostly wooden cities with incendiaries, made the dropping of nukes fairly unnecessary, but as a terror weapon, they were , and still are , unsurpassed.
Its interesting that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen, because they were the least damaged cities, other larger cities were already flattened.
The Americans could have sat back and watched a besieged Japan starve , with no way of rearming themselves, the threat was minute, but they wanted the whole world to see the power of Americas new toy.
The fact that purely civilian targets were constantly chosen , would normally constitute a war crime , but history favours the victor, always.

[welsh1]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

I'm sorry, but I think you're being a tiny bit naive there, dropping some  timed explosives over the side of a boat, ship, helicopter or plane, isn't  a revolution in warfare. 

If you think that it's a simple operation to destroy infrastructure on the sea floor then you are misguided, russsia has specific submarines and ships developed just for this purpose.

 

[Rewulf]

Just now, welsh1 said:

If you think that it's a simple operation to destroy infrastructure on the sea floor then you are misguided, russsia has specific submarines and ships developed just for this purpose.

As do we .
But if you were Russia , and you wanted to cause a scene so you could blame the west , surely you would do it closer to Russian waters ?

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, Stonepark said:

 

 

The cause of all of this was an illegal coup in Ukraine, everything else has just followed......

Nonsense. 

[timps]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

You dont have credibility if youre a conspiracy theorist right , arent we playing anymore ?

Do I think the west took out the pipeline, yes , it makes far more sense than Russia blowing it up to somehow send a message that they can blow pipelines up !
And who are the CIA , theyre just a tool for doing a job , are you suggesting they are a separate entity with their own agenda ?
Thou doth watch too many movies.

Of course, we are still playing, this is the fun of this game I can say what I want.

So the “Western Elite” convinced all of NATO to blow up the pipeline for the “greater good” so they can have a bigger slice of it (I’m not too sure how that fiscal policy works)  but the CIA doing something illegal that governments want to deny is farfetched?

You are right I do watch too many movies, the last one I watched was the Iran Contra Affair staring Oliver North …. Oh my mistake that wasn’t directly the CIA but they were implicated in the cocaine trafficking funding part and it wasn’t a movie but a televised congressional hearing.😄

 Joking aside this "western elite" have been quite busy, first they were trying to start a war with China by pining Covid on them, when that didn’t work, they have now turned the attention to Russia. Sounds like SPECTRE to me.

Do I think the USA is capable and could have done done it?

Yes, I do, but not as some bigger conspiracy involving NATO or secretive persons unknown of this ‘western elite’ and for what it is worth my money is on Russia but I cant prove that.

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Eh , what does Ukraine have that he needed ?

You are right they needed nothing from Ukraine that’s why they invaded and subsequently annexed big parts of it including a major port and the bits they need to supply this major port by land. Nothing of value there at all.🙄

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by timps

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, timps said:

So the “Western Elite” convinced all of NATO to blow up the pipeline for the “greater good” so they can have a bigger slice of it (I’m not too sure how that fiscal policy works)  but the CIA doing something illegal that governments want to deny is farfetched?

Not exactly what I said or implied, but if you think Joe Biden decides where the US projects itself, or any bod at NATO decides what can and cant be done , then thats a conspiracy theory on its own !
Not doubt someone will be along shortly to talk to me about lizards because I mentioned 'elites' , but if I mention names like Gates, Schwab, or any other multi billionaire who thinks its OK to tell you how to live your life, THATS who Im talking about, not a nameless dude with a cat on his lap (though Schwab does look suspiciously like a SPECTRE character)

Do these type of people people put presidents in power ? Of course they do, money makes the world go round.

12 minutes ago, timps said:

You are right I do watch to many movies, the last one I watched was the Iran Contra Affair starting Oliver North …. Oh my mistake that wasn’t directly the CIA but they were implicated in the cocaine trafficking funding part and it wasn’t a movie but a televised congressional hearing.

You have me on that one , as its not a subject I know much about .
But I was lead to believe the CIA , under direction of the US government used the cocaine trade for regime change purposes, when it was uncovered, they scrabbled to burn whoever they could to take blame from the Whitehouse.
I could be wrong , but I thought this was accepted as fact ?

 

16 minutes ago, timps said:

You are right they needed nothing from Ukraine that’s why they invaded and subsequently annexed big parts of it including a major port and the bits they need to supply this major port by land. Nothing of value there at all.🙄

OK , what do they have of value , Russia already had Black sea ports, with road access.
I dont suppose it was anything to do with security concerns at all, must be Putins madness, and dreams of becoming lizard lord of the New USSR ?