Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[mchughcb]

Plenty of conflict around the world. 

You want to be involved in all of them?  And how would that involvement be, troops on the ground for some virtue signalling cause or just selling arms at highly inflated prices?

 

[mchughcb]

7 hours ago, welsh1 said:

There was peace in the Balkans but guess what Putin invaded another country and starting killing men women and children.

If you want peace then get Putin to withdraw from a country that he invaded.

There is only one aggressor.

Really?

So who blew up the gas pipelines and Crimean bridge? If it isn't Russia and it wasn't Ukraine then looks like more than 1 aggressor.  

 

[12gauge82]

5 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

Really?

So who blew up the gas pipelines and Crimean bridge? If it isn't Russia and it wasn't Ukraine then looks like more than 1 aggressor.  

 

That's not how it works. You can't start a fight, then complain the person you launched an unprovoked attacked on is harder than you thought. 

[Mungler]

5 hours ago, mchughcb said:

Plenty of conflict around the world. 

You want to be involved in all of them?  And how would that involvement be, troops on the ground for some virtue signalling cause or just selling arms at highly inflated prices?

 

Can’t deal with the simple proposition of putting the troops and tanks in reverse and a politically negotiated solution and so we get more whataboutery and ‘Ooooh no, look over there, what about what’s happening over there, not here’. 

16 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

That's not how it works. You can't start a fight, then complain the person you launched an unprovoked attacked on is harder than you thought. 

And that’s where we are.

What a mess. The master strategist didn’t plan on Ukraine coming together behind a charismatic leader and making a ‘super power’ look ridiculous. 

[mchughcb]

52 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

That's not how it works. You can't start a fight, then complain the person you launched an unprovoked attacked on is harder than you thought. 

So you are saying the Ukrainian's blew up the pipeline and the crimean bridge? I heard it was special ops of another country. Okay then. If its the Ukrainians fair enough the pipe line was half owned by the Germans. They didn't need it anyway. But if its another EU country, I guess they won't mind their infrastructure being blown up with the general plausible deniability.

[Mungler]

4 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

So you are saying the Ukrainian's blew up the pipeline and the crimean bridge? 

He didn’t say that. You did. Indeed whoever did / didn’t is irrelevant to an invasion. 

More irrelevance and dodging about.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Mungler

[mchughcb]

Walsh said there was only one aggressor. What's next every nefarious act in the world can be blamed on Russia's specially military operation?

You got to give the Russian's credit. They are allowing civilian who wants to get out of the fighting zone to get a russian passport and move east. The UK on the other hand doesn't give them a passport and sends them to Rwanda hoping that solves the problem.

[mchughcb]

59 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Can’t deal with the simple proposition of putting the troops and tanks in reverse and a politically negotiated solution and so we get more whataboutery and ‘Ooooh no, look over there, what about what’s happening over there, not here’. 

And that’s where we are.

What a mess. The master strategist didn’t plan on Ukraine coming together behind a charismatic leader and making a ‘super power’ look ridiculous. 

Yes the USA with 10X the military in Kabul ran to the airport and left everything behind. How's that working out for the US collaborators, being rounded up and executed.  Lucky it would never happen in Ukraine, oh wait

 

Ukrainian hit squads are killing Russian occupiers and collaborators - The Washington Post

 

[welsh1]

18 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

Walsh said there was only one aggressor. What's next every nefarious act in the world can be blamed on Russia's specially military operation?

You got to give the Russian's credit. They are allowing civilian who wants to get out of the fighting zone to get a russian passport and move east. The UK on the other hand doesn't give them a passport and sends them to Rwanda hoping that solves the problem.

Did ukraine invade russia?

The world can see that russia is the aggressor and invaded Ukraine, it was russia that declared war on ukraine.

Russia get credit for nothing except the killing of civilians in ukraine.

Are you paid in roubles?

[henry d]

41 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

The UK on the other hand doesn't give them a passport and sends them to Rwanda hoping that solves the problem.

This shows how much you really know. Ukrainian refugees are accepted here and none have been sent to Rwanda. 

You are either being inflammatory, stupid or are very badly informed. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

You got to give the Russian's credit. They are allowing civilian who wants to get out of the fighting zone to get a russian passport and move east. The UK on the other hand doesn't give them a passport and sends them to Rwanda hoping that solves the problem.

What have financial refugees coming to the UK got to deal with Ukraine? No Ukrainian is being sent to Rwanda.

I don't know if you are one of Vlad's pals, a troll or not the full shilling. There is no fourth option.

[Mungler]

37 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Did ukraine invade russia?

The world can see that russia is the aggressor and invaded Ukraine, it was russia that declared war on ukraine.

Russia get credit for nothing except the killing of civilians in ukraine.

Are you paid in roubles?

I too am beginning to wonder if this is now some epic Harnser-esque wind up of Guinness World record proportions.

Bonkers. 

[mchughcb]

15 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

What have financial refugees coming to the UK got to deal with Ukraine? No Ukrainian is being sent to Rwanda.

I don't know if you are one of Vlad's pals, a troll or not the full shilling. There is no fourth option.

They are all financial refugees these days? Last time I checked before Brexit it looked like a lot were coming out of Syria. A war which the UK was help to other throw Assad, probably the most moderate arab country when it comes to Christians.

 

42 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Did ukraine invade russia?

The world can see that russia is the aggressor and invaded Ukraine, it was russia that declared war on ukraine.

Russia get credit for nothing except the killing of civilians in ukraine.

Are you paid in roubles?

Russia did not make a declaration of war. It won't matter how many times I post what a declaration of war is nobody reads it because ignorance is bliss.

[Stonepark]

9 hours ago, welsh1 said:

There was peace in the Balkans but guess what Putin invaded another country and starting killing men women and children.

If you want peace then get Putin to withdraw from a country that he invaded.

There is only one aggressor.

There was peace in the Balkans and then the USA\West supported\launched\directed a coup against the democratically elected Government of Ukraine because they were naturally aligning with Russia.

The illegal Ukranian government formed after the coup then decided to attack the areas which did not agree with the coup and said they would look after themselves.

There has been a war ongoing from that moment in 2014 when the coup took place and a minority were in charge and decided to try to impose there will on everyone else.

If you want peace you have to let people decide their own countries direction by themselves and not dump £Billions in funding and support to minority groups who you support because they vote in a direction you want rather than the direction that the majority of the voting public want.

Russia's reactions are a natural consequence of the previous actions by Ukraine and the West.

Peace now will come the hard way for many but it will come as Ukraine continues to collapse both militarily, economically and socially as the war continues.

[mchughcb]

44 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Did ukraine invade russia?

The world can see that russia is the aggressor and invaded Ukraine, it was russia that declared war on ukraine.

Russia get credit for nothing except the killing of civilians in ukraine.

Are you paid in roubles?

Initially no. But now that the Donbass is part of the Russian federation, they have time to withdraw.

I am not paid in roubles.

2 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

There was peace in the Balkans and then the USA\West supported\launched\directed a coup against the democratically elected Government of Ukraine because they were naturally aligning with Russia.

The illegal Ukranian government formed after the coup then decided to attack the areas which did not agree with the coup and said they would look after themselves.

There has been a war ongoing from that moment in 2014 when the coup took place and a minority were in charge and decided to try to impose there will on everyone else.

If you want peace you have to let people decide their own countries direction by themselves and not dump £Billions in funding and support to minority groups who you support because they vote in a direction you want rather than the direction that the majority of the voting public want.

Russia's reactions are a natural consequence of the previous actions by Ukraine and the West.

Peace now will come the hard way for many but it will come as Ukraine continues to collapse both militarily, economically and socially as the war continues.

The brutal truth is too hard for some posters. I can take it.

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Can’t deal with the simple proposition of putting the troops and tanks in reverse and a politically negotiated solution and so we get more whataboutery and ‘Ooooh no, look over there, what about what’s happening over there, not here’. 

And that’s where we are.

What a mess. The master strategist didn’t plan on Ukraine coming together behind a charismatic leader and making a ‘super power’ look ridiculous. 

Putin like many has been caught out by the damage Governments in Europe (at the USA and EU say-so) have been willing to sacrifice their own people's security, lives, wealth and health for Ukraine.

Wars are fought with soldiers with weapons but it is logistics that count, by increasing the logistics supply of heavy weapons and equipment to Ukraine, they have been able to hold for 4 to 6 months longer than they should have had they been on their own, but there is now little extra kit to give and what is there is being destroyed at a rate similar to the kit they have already lost, meaning another 3ish months and there will be little heavy weapons left and therefore no way to hold out any longer.

[Mice!]

6 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

There was peace in the Balkans and then the USA\West supported\launched\directed a coup against the democratically elected Government of Ukraine because they were naturally aligning with Russia.

The illegal Ukranian government formed after the coup then decided to attack the areas which did not agree with the coup and said they would look after themselves.

There has been a war ongoing from that moment in 2014 when the coup took place and a minority were in charge and decided to try to impose there will on everyone else.

If you want peace you have to let people decide their own countries direction by themselves and not dump £Billions in funding and support to minority groups who you support because they vote in a direction you want rather than the direction that the majority of the voting public want.

Russia's reactions are a natural consequence of the previous actions by Ukraine and the West.

Peace now will come the hard way for many but it will come as Ukraine continues to collapse both militarily, economically and socially as the war continues.

The problem is nobody was interested till Russia crossed the border, so it doesn't matter. 

[Mungler]

9 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Putin like many has been caught out by the damage Governments in Europe (at the USA and EU say-so) have been willing to sacrifice their own people's security, lives, wealth and health for Ukraine.

Wars are fought with soldiers with weapons but it is logistics that count, by increasing the logistics supply of heavy weapons and equipment to Ukraine, they have been able to hold for 4 to 6 months longer than they should have had they been on their own, but there is now little extra kit to give and what is there is being destroyed at a rate similar to the kit they have already lost, meaning another 3ish months and there will be little heavy weapons left and therefore no way to hold out any longer.

Yes. And?

There’s a lot the master strategist didn’t bank on.

[Stonepark]

57 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Did ukraine invade russia?

The world can see that russia is the aggressor and invaded Ukraine, it was russia that declared war on ukraine.

Russia get credit for nothing except the killing of civilians in ukraine.

Are you paid in roubles?

The illegal government of Ukraine invaded the Donbass.

When you have an illegal coup in a government of a country, the whole country is effectively dissolved and everyone can choose to go their own way, they do not have to accept an illegal non democratic replacement government that they did not vote for, the Donbass & Crimea chose to govern themselves and thereafter join the Russian federation.

This refusal by people to see that they are supporting an illegal Nazi authoritarian government of Ukraine over the people of Donbass etc having the choice to decide what they want, makes me wonder if they truly understand what is in front of them or whether they are so wedded to a system that they would themselves die for it rather than accept change in their views.

 

Let's ask a question, if Scotland was to have an illegal referendum and then declare independence, what would Mungler et al say?

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

They are all financial refugees these days? Last time I checked before Brexit it looked like a lot were coming out of Syria. A war which the UK was help to other throw Assad, probably the most moderate arab country when it comes to Christians.

I repeat "What have financial refugees coming to the UK got to deal with Ukraine? No Ukrainian is being sent to Rwanda."

You are incapable of answering a simple question. I am embarrassed for you.

[welsh1]

54 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

They are all financial refugees these days? Last time I checked before Brexit it looked like a lot were coming out of Syria. A war which the UK was help to other throw Assad, probably the most moderate arab country when it comes to Christians.

 

Russia did not make a declaration of war. It won't matter how many times I post what a declaration of war is nobody reads it because ignorance is bliss.

Quack quack

51 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

There was peace in the Balkans and then the USA\West supported\launched\directed a coup against the democratically elected Government of Ukraine because they were naturally aligning with Russia.

The illegal Ukranian government formed after the coup then decided to attack the areas which did not agree with the coup and said they would look after themselves.

There has been a war ongoing from that moment in 2014 when the coup took place and a minority were in charge and decided to try to impose there will on everyone else.

If you want peace you have to let people decide their own countries direction by themselves and not dump £Billions in funding and support to minority groups who you support because they vote in a direction you want rather than the direction that the majority of the voting public want.

Russia's reactions are a natural consequence of the previous actions by Ukraine and the West.

Peace now will come the hard way for many but it will come as Ukraine continues to collapse both militarily, economically and socially as the war continues.

If you want peace you have to avoid invading another country.

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

He didn’t say that. You did. Indeed whoever did / didn’t is irrelevant to an invasion. 

More irrelevance and dodging about.

This

[welsh1]

52 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

Initially no. But now that the Donbass is part of the Russian federation, they have time to withdraw.

 

The donbass is ukrainian, russia the invading force cannot just declare them part of russia, and holding sham elections does not give them any credability, russia is an invading force.

[Stonepark]

1 minute ago, welsh1 said:

The donbass is ukrainian, russia the invading force cannot just declare them part of russia, and holding sham elections does not give them any credability, russia is an invading force.

The Donbass is not Ukranian, it is Donbassian.

Countries are not fixed forever, merely political constructs which normally survive by peaceful transition between successive governments and the populations acceptance.

When you have a Coup or war, that chain is broken.

The 2014 coup broke the chain, people were then freely allowed to organise themselves into new constructs and those in Donbass chose to go their own way and Govern themselves.

Either the Donbass is allowed to freely choose it's future and Ukraine should accept this or China is quite within it's rights to invade and take back Taiwan and the Taiwan government and people should submit as you are expecting the government and people Dombass to submit to Ukraine.

USA and West have vowed to protect Taiwan from China, Russia has vowed to protect Donbass from Ukraine.

You can't have it both ways.

[ShootingEgg]

20 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

The Donbass is not Ukranian, it is Donbassian.

Countries are not fixed forever, merely political constructs which normally survive by peaceful transition between successive governments and the populations acceptance.

When you have a Coup or war, that chain is broken.

The 2014 coup broke the chain, people were then freely allowed to organise themselves into new constructs and those in Donbass chose to go their own way and Govern themselves.

Either the Donbass is allowed to freely choose it's future and Ukraine should accept this or China is quite within it's rights to invade and take back Taiwan and the Taiwan government and people should submit as you are expecting the government and people Dombass to submit to Ukraine.

USA and West have vowed to protect Taiwan from China, Russia has vowed to protect Donbass from Ukraine.

You can't have it both ways.

So when Lviv and Kyiv got bombed was that Russia 'protecting' Donbassians? Did the Donbassian people ask to be bombed out of house and home??

I'm thinking not.....