Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[ordnance]

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No, countries should have things in place, or join the likes of NATO and pay there way. Europe, UK and USA are supplying weapons so the Ukraine can fight a war they'll never win, even if Putin pulled his forces out tomorrow they've still lost, look at the damage that's been done and the numbers of people who have been displaced.

Did the UK have everything in place during WW2, some defeatists said the UK should have should have sued for peace / surrendered to Nazi Germany. WW2 left large parts of the UK destroyed and the county bankrupt, so follow your logic they should have just surrendered without a fight. 

[Mice!]

2 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Did the UK have everything in place during WW2, some defeatists said the UK should have should have sued for peace / surrendered to Nazi Germany. WW2 left large parts of the UK destroyed and the county bankrupt, so follow your logic they should have just surrendered without a fight. 

With the whole of Europe on fire why would we simply surrender, it was a world war and totally different. 

Were British troops already involved before the UK was attacked,  most pprobably I don't know for definite. 

Nato was formed to protect against this happening again,  to protect from Russia,  but now a non Nato country is being supplied to fight Russia, despite the warning given about other countries getting involved. 

I don't see anyway that the fighting stops without direct action from Nato, and that doesn't look like its going to happen, so Russia will just grind there way forwards.

[ordnance]

11 minutes ago, Mice! said:

With the whole of Europe on fire why would we simply surrender, it was a world war and totally different. 

Were British troops already involved before the UK was attacked,  most pprobably I don't know for definite. 

Nato was formed to protect against this happening again,  to protect from Russia,  but now a non Nato country is being supplied to fight Russia, despite the warning given about other countries getting involved. 

I don't see anyway that the fighting stops without direct action from Nato, and that doesn't look like its going to happen, so Russia will just grind there way forwards.

Any country can ask for help when attacked , they can also buy arms on the open market.  If countries agree to supply arms and help that's up to them. Do you think countries should appease Putin because he warned them not to supply weapons to Ukraine. 

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Were British troops already involved before the UK was attacked,  most pprobably I don't know for definite.

Is that a serious question. 

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With the whole of Europe on fire why would we simply surrender, it was a world war and totally different. 

To avoid civilian casualties bankruptcy and destruction of UK cities. I don't see how its totaly different like Ukraine the UK was under attack they had a choice surrender or fight, and they would have lost without help and arms from other countries. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by ordnance

[Dave-G]

Has anyone seen any overhead drone/quadcopter/heli images/videos of that alleged supermarket blast? An absence of them possible tells a story!

I read somewhere earlier, and have since seen on SKY news it was a warehouse across the road from it - and judging by the flames I can't help but wonder what guff we are being fed.

At the risk of being thought a cynic, I saw a Cindy? type doll had been subsequently placed atop the charred rubble in a claimed destroyed shop, the doll was clean and unmarked, obvious to anyone with an enquiring mind that it had been carefully placed to suit a narrative.

Shameful reporting doesn't even come close to truth by what I've seen.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Dave-G

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Dave-G said:

Has anyone seen any overhead drone/quadcopter/heli images/videos of that alleged supermarket blast? An absence of them possible tells a story!

I read somewhere earlier, and have since seen on SKY news it was a warehouse across the road from it - and judging by the flames I can't help but wonder what guff we are being fed.

At the risk of being thought a cynic, I saw a Cindy? type doll had been subsequently placed atop the charred rubble in a claimed destroyed shop, the doll was clean and unmarked, obvious to anyone with an enquiring mind that it had been carefully placed to suit a narrative.

Shameful reporting doesn't even come close to truth by what I've seen.

Were you getting your news from Russia today.

I’m no expert but that looks to me like a supermarket blown inside out.

 

[Mungler]

4 hours ago, Mice! said:

I don't see where you get your ideas from, it would be the simple solution,  except Putin isn't about to do it, why would he?

It probably would have been if the Ukraine weren't being supplied,  but like I've said before it's prolonging the war and trashing the Ukraine.

I still don't think anyone on here wants anything other than the conflict to be over, but it's clearly not going to happen.

Well, the hand wringing is entirely focused on how the west haven’t tried hard enough with negotiating, how Putin was justified because of (insert BS reason here : Nazis, drug dealers, nato, aggressors etc) and so on but everyone skates over Putin had no need / real reason and he can leave Ukraine easier then how he entered.

As for ‘we shouldn’t send support because it would be over sooner’ I do wonder what alternative reality I have entered. 

[Newbie to this]

7 hours ago, ordnance said:

they can also buy arms on the open market.

Are they 'buying' them 

7 hours ago, ordnance said:

 the UK was under attack

Were we though?

[Mungler]

2 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Are they 'buying' them 

Were we though?

Nothing is free

And yes, we should have done nothing and just all learnt to speak German and kiss goodbye to anyone with dark hair and brown eyes.

[Newbie to this]

19 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Nothing is free

So people keep saying, someone should tell Boris.

I wonder who pays for them if Ukraine falls, will Russia pay for them 

 

20 minutes ago, Mungler said:

And yes, we should have done nothing and just all learnt to speak German and kiss goodbye to anyone with dark hair and brown eyes.

Stop putting words in my mouth, if you read the comment I was replying to, we were not under attack from the Germans, we declared War in defence of another country, NOT direct attack. The two things are completely different.

10 hours ago, ordnance said:

To avoid civilian casualties bankruptcy and destruction of UK cities. I don't see how its totaly different like Ukraine the UK was under attack they had a choice surrender or fight, and they would have lost without help and arms from other countries. 

@Mungler This comment, which simply isn't true.

[ShootingEgg]

8 hours ago, Mungler said:

Were you getting your news from Russia today.

I’m no expert but that looks to me like a supermarket blown inside out.

 

Russia say they were aiming at a factory they believe had US and UK weaponry in it. And that the mall was opposite and was in the fall out of the explosion. Also that they seem to think that mall has been empty and not used since march.. 

 

[Mice!]

9 hours ago, Mungler said:

Well, the hand wringing is entirely focused on how the west haven’t tried hard enough with negotiating, how Putin was justified because of (insert BS reason here : Nazis, drug dealers, nato, aggressors etc) and so on but everyone skates over Putin had no need / real reason and he can leave Ukraine easier then how he entered.

As for ‘we shouldn’t send support because it would be over sooner’ I do wonder what alternative reality I have entered. 

So you actually think the Ukraine being sent weapons is going to achieve anything?

All I can see is it will prolong the war, it won't finish until Russia has what it wants, they have done two previous land grabs and now a third.

I've yet to see or read anything that says the Ukraine could win, if Russia left today its going to take a generation to put things right.

I'd say Russia saw Sleepy Joe and decided to act, no doubt China will do the same?

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, ShootingEgg said:

Russia say they were aiming at a factory they believe had US and UK weaponry in it. And that the mall was opposite and was in the fall out of the explosion. Also that they seem to think that mall has been empty and not used since march.. 

 

Well that’s alright then and makes it hunky dorey. We should probably give them the benefit of any doubt, they seem like a nice bunch and trustworthy 😆

6 minutes ago, Mice! said:

So you actually think the Ukraine being sent weapons is going to achieve anything?

All I can see is it will prolong the war, it won't finish until Russia has what it wants, they have done two previous land grabs and now a third.

I've yet to see or read anything that says the Ukraine could win, if Russia left today its going to take a generation to put things right.

I'd say Russia saw Sleepy Joe and decided to act, no doubt China will do the same?

And tell me about the victory of the superior Russian forces In Afghanistan?

If there is no choice and the answer is to just automatically give in to an invading force of a superior numbers, then the future for the free world (democracy, free press, fair trial etc) is rather bleak.

And yes, the brutal reality is Ukraine wearing Russia out and down, buys everyone else time to get their acts together and more money into NATO.

[Dave-G]

10 hours ago, Mungler said:

Were you getting your news from Russia today.

I’m no expert but that looks to me like a supermarket blown inside out.

 

Here's what I saw - I can try to find the source again if you like, defo not RT. The doll was on a sky news clip. I can't find the clip now - maybe it was taken down because it was clearly planted 'evidence'

I initially thought the corrugated steel panels were industrial site walls but its very likely they are remains of a collapsed roof. 

It's telling there were no burnt out cars or other vehicles belonging to the 1000's of shoppers in the 'supermarket' car park. It was found to be empty - and apparently suspected of being used to store western supplied armaments under cover.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Dave-G

[Mice!]

5 minutes ago, Mungler said:

And tell me about the victory of the superior Russian forces In Afghanistan?

Genghis was the last person to conquer Afghanistan, even the Russians weren't as brutal as the Mongolians, but they didn't have the world watching,  how long did the Russians stay in Afghanistan though? There won't be anything left of the Ukraine, and I expect the rewards of taking a fertile country like the Ukraine are far greater than Afghanistan. 

Plus the Ukrainians aren't Afghanistan,  they live in a different time, and way of life.

13 minutes ago, Mungler said:

there is no choice and the answer is to just automatically give in to an invading force of a superior numbers, then the future for the free world (democracy, free press, fair trial etc) is rather bleak.

But simply handing them weapons won't achieve anything,  it will just result in more of the Ukraine being bombed and burning and more Ukrainian people dying. 

I'm not sure the Russians can be worn down, They might stop when they get as far as then want, then it will probably be another few years before it happens again. 

[Mungler]

29 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Here's what I saw - I can try to find the source again if you like, defo not RT. The doll was on a sky news clip. I can't find the clip now - maybe it was taken down because it was clearly planted 'evidence'

I initially thought the corrugated steel panels were industrial site walls but its very likely they are remains of a collapsed roof. 

It's telling there were no burnt out cars or other vehicles belonging to the 1000's of shoppers in the 'supermarket' car park. It was found to be empty - and apparently suspected of being used to store western supplied armaments under cover.

That first photo has been photo shopped to remove the shopping centre sign. That came form a pro Russian news source, right?

[Mungler]

19 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Genghis was the last person to conquer Afghanistan, even the Russians weren't as brutal as the Mongolians, but they didn't have the world watching,  how long did the Russians stay in Afghanistan though? There won't be anything left of the Ukraine, and I expect the rewards of taking a fertile country like the Ukraine are far greater than Afghanistan. 

Plus the Ukrainians aren't Afghanistan,  they live in a different time, and way of life.

But simply handing them weapons won't achieve anything,  it will just result in more of the Ukraine being bombed and burning and more Ukrainian people dying. 

I'm not sure the Russians can be worn down, They might stop when they get as far as then want, then it will probably be another few years before it happens again. 

Ukraine and Afghanistan are not direct comparables but they are comparable.

Putin can’t occupy a land mass the size of Ukraine without Ukrainian support (which he doesn’t have) and so he’s going to bleed badly for every square inch. There’s a break point where one or both sides want to stop the bleeding and we’re not there yet.

But to say that the Ukrainians should just roll over is beyond me. Indeed, it’s beyond them. And as above the brutal reality is that the west gets to weaken russia without own loss of personnel and by only feeding Ukraine with the weaponry Ukraine asks for.

Putin was always put forward as this clever strategy chap - well, not now. He’s running out of ammo and generals and to what end / purpose? Let’s hope that in the not too distant future he has enough and tries harder for a solution (notwithstanding that ‘reverse’ is still open to him albeit he’s likely to then end up against a wall in a military coup).

[ShootingEgg]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Well that’s alright then and makes it hunky dorey. We should probably give them the benefit of any doubt, they seem like a nice bunch and trustworthy 😆

Not really what I was saying 😂

But they aren't exactly going to say yes we targeted this complex and we are thugs are they .. 

[bostonmick]

6 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

Not really what I was saying 😂

But they aren't exactly going to say yes we targeted this complex and we are thugs are they .. 

i believe its called propaganda. something that plays a big part in war.both sides will use it.and also every other country will use it on their own people.the only truth to come from war is your son/daughter/husband is not coming home as thry hsve been killed. beyond that everything else is false

[Dave-G]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

That first photo has been photo shopped to remove the shopping centre sign. That came form a pro Russian news source, right?

I'll have to try and find it again, think it was the Guardian. I'm thinking it may have at one time been a supermarket but possibly a very long time derelict one.

Edit: I still can't find the video clip with the doll, nor the Guardian article yet, but this has similar content and does show a sign on the roof. One of the video subtitles described it as a trade centre and there are vans in a car park which lends at least a little cred to the 'trade centre' bit.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/28/world-leaders-condemn-abominable-russian-attack-on-ukraine-shopping-centre 

It also seems there were two or possibly three missile strikes - one on an industrial area nearby so we might be getting fed clips of either to make it more dramatic. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-west but I'm also not gullible enough to swallow all the blame game stuff we get these days.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Dave-G
update

[ordnance]

15 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

Are they 'buying' them 

Were we though?

They are buying some, and getting some other ways lend lease etc, just like the UK did during WW2.

[bostonmick]

ukraine have said today they need 4 billion pounds a month to fight this war.we will see how keen the west are after a year or so of this.

[Newbie to this]

16 minutes ago, ordnance said:

They are buying some, and getting some other ways lend lease etc, just like the UK did during WW2.

And some gifted!

[johnphilip]

24 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

ukraine have said today they need 4 billion pounds a month to fight this war.we will see how keen the west are after a year or so of this.

And how much is it costing Russia 

[bostonmick]

30 minutes ago, johnphilip said:

And how much is it costing Russia 

it is no doubt costing russia a great deal however unless he is unseated from within by his own and the new power backs away putin will force great suffering on his own people.but i do not believe western countries have the appetite to sacrifice their soft lifestyle we no longer have the spirit of the forties people are to selfish to go without.

[ordnance]

1 hour ago, Newbie to this said:

And some gifted!

Yes, every little helps.