Wood burner kettle

[harrycatcat1]

21 minutes ago, harrycatcat1 said:

Experimenting with a pan of water 🤔

 

Big pan boiled in just over 15 minutes 👍

[Minky]

23 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

This is what is involved.  For heat to get from your stove to the kettle, it passes by 3 'processes';

• Radiant heat
• Heat passed by hot air
• Heat passed by direct contact

For a stove like an AgA, there is a ground flat cast iron 'hob' that is very hot.  Place a kettle with a similarly ground flat base, and there is lots of metal to metal contact, so lots of direct heat transfer and the kettle boils very quickly.  Where there isn't a ground flat surface, heat transfer will depend on how much contact surface there is.  Kettles are usually heavy (often thick aluminium) to give the true ground flat base - which accounts for the high cost.

For a kettle like the Halfords one (or at least, how I think it is), it is made from thin aluminium with a rim around the base, so only the rim will contact your stove and heat transfer will be slow by this method.  These rimmed kettles are meant for use on a gas flame where the flame plays on the base and contact is not needed.  It will still warm up, but it will be slow and may never get to the boil.

I think the key questions are;

1. Does your stove have a decent flat surface that would make good contact to a ground flat base?  If YES, you would definitely be better with a suitably ground flat based kettle; If NO, then even a ground flat one will only work as well as contact can be made.
2. Are you looking to boil a kettle reasonably quickly, or just have a supply of warmed/hot water ready to hand?  IF the kettle only stands on a thin rim, it will probably be very slow to heat (I have never tried, but you can see the reasoning ......)  However - it will get hot (if not boil) given time and a hot stove as heat will still pass both by hot air and radiation.

I've read through all of the above posts and pretty much all of them are poor fred karno solutions and are mostly a disaster accident waiting to happen. Having a pan of boiling water go over ... an animal, child or down your leg could be a life changing event.    We have a rayburn on which we use a Le creuset kettle that one of the daughters gave us as a present which I've just seen cost somewhere between £60---£70 !!!  We've also got one of those aluminium camping type kettles as above. That just doesn't get hot because of the base rim... as written above.  The Le cŕeuset works well but a couple of issues.   Firstly its the  second one we've had the first one fractured the enamel around the pouring spout and leaked  on pouring. . Returned under warranty for the second one which has been ok for about 5 years of winter use but has developed internal rust corrosion. You have to have th Rayburn at full chat for it to boil which is too hot and inefficient.  We use it for washing up the stuff that doesn't go in the dishwasher and as pre heated hot water in the electric kettle to boil... about 20 seconds  for tea.  Using it like that is the simplest,  cheapest,  safest option. A Kelly kettle would be ok but is anyone really going to mess about with a fire outside like it's at night or raining.  That's going right down to Ray nears survival situation stuff. Unfortunately the cost of living is what it is. You just got to be as efficient as possible. 

Edit... please don't have open pans of water on stoves.  It's really dangerous and at some stage someone or something is going to get seriously hurt.  Second thing is that if water gets tipped over your cast iron woodburner it is likely to break the cast.  Not very cost effective to wreck the woodburner to save a bit of electricity. Just boil the amount of water in a normal kettle required.  

Edited April 4, 2022 by Minky

[harrycatcat1]

31 minutes ago, Minky said:

I've read through all of the above posts and pretty much all of them are poor fred karno solutions and are mostly a disaster accident waiting to happen. Having a pan of boiling water go over ... an animal, child or down your leg could be a life changing event.    We have a rayburn on which we use a Le creuset kettle that one of the daughters gave us as a present which I've just seen cost somewhere between £60---£70 !!!  We've also got one of those aluminium camping type kettles as above. That just doesn't get hot because of the base rim... as written above.  The Le cŕeuset works well but a couple of issues.   Firstly its the  second one we've had the first one fractured the enamel around the pouring spout and leaked  on pouring. . Returned under warranty for the second one which has been ok for about 5 years of winter use but has developed internal rust corrosion. You have to have th Rayburn at full chat for it to boil which is too hot and inefficient.  We use it for washing up the stuff that doesn't go in the dishwasher and as pre heated hot water in the electric kettle to boil... about 20 seconds  for tea.  Using it like that is the simplest,  cheapest,  safest option. A Kelly kettle would be ok but is anyone really going to mess about with a fire outside like it's at night or raining.  That's going right down to Ray nears survival situation stuff. Unfortunately the cost of living is what it is. You just got to be as efficient as possible. 

Edit... please don't have open pans of water on stoves.  It's really dangerous and at some stage someone or something is going to get seriously hurt.  Second thing is that if water gets tipped over your cast iron woodburner it is likely to break the cast.  Not very cost effective to wreck the woodburner to save a bit of electricity. Just boil the amount of water in a normal kettle required.  

What is the safety difference between having a pan of water on a gas hob or a log burner? 🤔  if the hot water goes on an animal, child or your leg its the same difference/outcome, isn't it?

[miki]

Excellent post @JohnfromUK

[old man]

10 minutes ago, harrycatcat1 said:

What is the safety difference between having a pan of water on a gas hob or a log burner? 🤔  if the hot water goes on an animal, child or your leg its the same difference/outcome, isn't it?

The difference is in the height of the water?

[miki]

We do have an inbuilt safety oriented mindset when in the kitchen, all those years of your mother telling you the cooker was hot and to stay away from the hot pans etc

The living room is cosier more trip hazards, more relaxed, more prone to be full of dogs and kids, so unless you are used to a wood stove and people carrying pans of boiling water around it is a more dangerous place and an open saucpan isn't something I would reccommend either.

However...

A purposely designed kettle is fine, the only issue is that you need to be extra careful carrying it through to the kitchen but as long as it has a well insulated handle and a good lid .....

[discobob]

3 hours ago, harrycatcat1 said:

Experimenting with a pan of water 🤔

 

Is it warm yet?? You need a lid on it

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by discobob

[udderlyoffroad]

On 02/04/2022 at 07:45, powler said:

I'm thinking it would be handy for a cuppa and if I needed hot water for say pasta or rice etc etc cheaper than using the gas hob to boil

On what planet?

Gas is still approximately 1/4 the cost of electricity, kWh for kWh.  Electric kettles are very efficient and it is likely still the cheapest way to make a cup of tea.  If you think you are saving money by spending north of £70 on the required kettle for your woodburner, penny wise but pound foolish springs to mind.

A better way to save money would be any of the following:

• Get rid of any CFLs or Halogen lighting you still have.  Am amazed at the amount of older people who still have flickering, ancient fluorescent battens in their kitchens, burning money because the starter is knackered and the ballast is humming merrily away.
• Don't buy poundshop LED lamps
• Stop leaving the oven on any longer than strictly necessary - this is a huge one
• Stop falling asleep in front of the TV and/or having it on the background.  Never mind standby consumption, that's the real waste.
• Only boil the amount of water you actually need.  Water is a massive 'heat pig', and an electric kettle is designed to cut out when the water within has reached its set temperature, always boiling a full kettle will add significantly to the energy it uses.

[discobob]

I have been humming and ****'ing over doing something to ease our bills. I think I have decided on installing batteries and Octopus to charge them off peak - 14Kw - estimated payback 5 years - and if regularly going over add on another 3

Then I may but some solar in and an Unvented cylinder - split the use between the cylinder first - with the rest going to top up the battery and then back to cylinder. Do need to see how to work the Central Heating back in to that

[harrycatcat1]

2 hours ago, discobob said:

Is it warm yet?? You need a lid on it

 

It was boiling after 15 minutes 👍

[Dougy]

Somebody needs to do a full RA and Process for boiling water in a none conventional heating source. 

Once done and the process in place  and passed of by QHSE your good to go. It may just mean some signage needs putting in front of the water receptacle. 

[harrycatcat1]

1 hour ago, Dougy said:

Somebody needs to do a full RA and Process for boiling water in a none conventional heating source. 

Once done and the process in place  and passed of by QHSE your good to go. It may just mean some signage needs putting in front of the water receptacle. 

Couldn't have put it better myself 👏 

[Minky]

8 hours ago, harrycatcat1 said:

What is the safety difference between having a pan of water on a gas hob or a log burner? 🤔  if the hot water goes on an animal, child or your leg its the same difference/outcome, isn't it?

None whatsoever,  but why engage in dangerous penny pinching activities.  if it can happen at some stage it will happen.  How do you fancy months in hospital potentially to save a bit on the electric.  If it was safe, efficient everyone would be doing it.  what about putting waste oil on your log burner.??  you'd save a few bob on that for heating.  You would probably burn your house down but hey ho.

[harrycatcat1]

42 minutes ago, Minky said:

None whatsoever,  but why engage in dangerous penny pinching activities.  if it can happen at some stage it will happen.  How do you fancy months in hospital potentially to save a bit on the electric.  If it was safe, efficient everyone would be doing it.  what about putting waste oil on your log burner.??  you'd save a few bob on that for heating.  You would probably burn your house down but hey ho.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

[powler]

8 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

On what planet?

Gas is still approximately 1/4 the cost of electricity, kWh for kWh.  Electric kettles are very efficient and it is likely still the cheapest way to make a cup of tea.  If you think you are saving money by spending north of £70 on the required kettle for your woodburner, penny wise but pound foolish springs to mind.

A better way to save money would be any of the following:

• Get rid of any CFLs or Halogen lighting you still have.  Am amazed at the amount of older people who still have flickering, ancient fluorescent battens in their kitchens, burning money because the starter is knackered and the ballast is humming merrily away.
• Don't buy poundshop LED lamps
• Stop leaving the oven on any longer than strictly necessary - this is a huge one
• Stop falling asleep in front of the TV and/or having it on the background.  Never mind standby consumption, that's the real waste.
• Only boil the amount of water you actually need.  Water is a massive 'heat pig', and an electric kettle is designed to cut out when the water within has reached its set temperature, always boiling a full kettle will add significantly to the energy it uses.

 I don't have an electric kettle, we boil ours on the hob but would replace that one for one that could be used efficiently on the wood burner or the hob, the wood burner is already lit so free energy to heat water, slow cook a stew if need be etc.

As for the other things you point most of those are in place, except I may have a nod infront of the TV

As for the H+S issues some are worrying about, I will be sure to do a full risk assessment before spending.

 

[Old farrier]

On 03/04/2022 at 12:21, powler said:

No don't know anyone with one John.

Put a saucepan on it last night with no lid on just to see, about 1.7 ltr water and took about approx 14 mins to boil, so with a lid would of been lots quicker. The pans are decent flat based and it didn't take long for the water to start heating. The burner definitely gets hot enough the temp gauge was showing about 250c.

Oh and didn't waste the water used it to cook spaghetti 😁

Mick

Err have you not read the stove instructions 

your ment to shut them down at 200 to maintain efficiency and reburn the fuel smoke running at too high a temperature is not very economical 

but what would I know 🙄

[toxo]

On 02/04/2022 at 07:45, powler said:

Hi,

Toying with the idea of getting a kettle and a trivet for the wood burner, I'm thinking it would be handy for a cuppa and if I needed hot water for say pasta or rice etc etc cheaper than using the gas hob to boil, I could heat the water then transfer to the hob for the actual cooking of food, I guess some cast iron kettles could rust if not oiled but not sure on that one.

Any thoughts to look out for or recommendations of kettles or trivets?

Thanks Mick

A bit OT but many years ago Parkinson Cowan did a rotisserie for their eye level grills. The whole grill rack would lift an withdraw leaving two holes in the backplate to slot in the rotisserie. It had a small mains motor with a frame and a built in drip tray.

Now here's the thing. One time I lived on a boat and I had a mini Mrs Beeton range. I used to sit that rotisserie in front of that range and I've never tasted better chicken before or since. And the kettle was always on the top (sometimes with the hole plate removed if in a hurry).

[powler]

7 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Err have you not read the stove instructions 

your ment to shut them down at 200 to maintain efficiency and reburn the fuel smoke running at too high a temperature is not very economical 

but what would I know 🙄

Not sure if I read the instructions, some year have passed since install. But was told the running temp is between 300f and 550f(150c/290c approx)

Found the below comment from a Clearview manual for my model of stove.

"We recommend the use of an air manifold thermometer; this inexpensive accessory is a useful guide to combustion efficiency and fuel quality. If you have a thermometer, you will notice that once temperatures in the region of 260°C./500°F. have been achieved your fire will burn extremely cleanly, the refractory bricks will be clean and a high degree of secondary combustion will be evident. Fresh logs will burn almost on immediate contact with the pre-heated air and gases released from new fuel will ignite, producing flames dancing high in the fire. Because Clearview Stoves are heavily constructed an d have a refractory lining they are able to retain their heat longer than lighter weight stoves, this retention of heat also promotes clean efficient combustion. It is recommended that you heat your stove to at least 205°C./ 400°F. on the air manifold (area above door) before fully shutting down air inlet to minimum setting, this may take15 to 30 minutes from lighting, depending on fuel."

Maybe some of the other makes run at lower temps. If this one runs to low it does not burn that clean, you can see black/dark smoke from the chimney.

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, powler said:

Not sure if I read the instructions, some year have passed since install. But was told the running temp is between 300f and 550f(150c/290c approx)

Found the below comment from a Clearview manual for my model of stove.

"We recommend the use of an air manifold thermometer; this inexpensive accessory is a useful guide to combustion efficiency and fuel quality. If you have a thermometer, you will notice that once temperatures in the region of 260°C./500°F. have been achieved your fire will burn extremely cleanly, the refractory bricks will be clean and a high degree of secondary combustion will be evident. Fresh logs will burn almost on immediate contact with the pre-heated air and gases released from new fuel will ignite, producing flames dancing high in the fire. Because Clearview Stoves are heavily constructed an d have a refractory lining they are able to retain their heat longer than lighter weight stoves, this retention of heat also promotes clean efficient combustion. It is recommended that you heat your stove to at least 205°C./ 400°F. on the air manifold (area above door) before fully shutting down air inlet to minimum setting, this may take15 to 30 minutes from lighting, depending on fuel."

Maybe some of the other makes run at lower temps. If this one runs to low it does not burn that clean, you can see black/dark smoke from the chimney.

Fair enough 

just seems to me like you’re running it to hot and not as efficient as should be 

all the best 

of 👍

[miki]

I run my Stovax up to around the 200C mark too, typically I can shut the air to promote the tertiary burn and it sits happy around the 190C mark.
Occasionaly we use a flat bottomed kettle to boil water for tea, I think it will be more often now that the 'trickery is so expensive.

[JohnfromUK]

Putting this in perspective, to boil a litre of water is under 0.2 KHh, or at present prices about 4 pence (electricity).  - so 4 boils a day comes out as under 1 KWh or about 20p a day.  Compared to other uses of electricity like cooking, ovens, fridges and freezers (I'm quite frugal, but still use about 10-12 KWh a day overall) - the kettle is quite a minor part.

[powler]

8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Putting this in perspective, to boil a litre of water is under 0.2 KHh, or at present prices about 4 pence (electricity).  - so 4 boils a day comes out as under 1 KWh or about 20p a day.  Compared to other uses of electricity like cooking, ovens, fridges and freezers (I'm quite frugal, but still use about 10-12 KWh a day overall) - the kettle is quite a minor part.

Thanks for the figures John, like you say it brings things into perspective on cost saving against outlay. Thinking now if we are to replace the current hob kettle I'd get one(flat based) that can be used on the burner or gas hob at a decent price and in time it would pay for itself and start saving money, esp if we used it to heat water for for cooking of food on the hob etc, of course with summer on the way it would not be beneficial but the heating is now off and on chilly days the fire is lit.

So on 20p a day for a cuppa and approx 1 to 2 litre a day for cooking, would 25p a day sound right? Fire lit for 6 months of the year at least, would work out at about £45 saved.

I agree its a small amount saved compared to the running of white goods in the house, but every little helps, just need to add a kettle to the birthday list.

Mick

[udderlyoffroad]

34 minutes ago, powler said:

So on 20p a day for a cuppa and approx 1 to 2 litre a day for cooking, would 25p a day sound right? Fire lit for 6 months of the year at least, would work out at about £45 saved.

No.

Those figures above are for an electric kettle.  You told us you don’t have such a device and currently use a gas hob. This isn’t as easy a calculation as an electric kettle as there are many variables, not least of which is the human and how long it takes them to remove the whistling kettle from the stove. The old rule of thumb, namely kWh for kWh, gas is about ¼ of the price, still holds true.  But, a kettle on a gas hob is much less efficient (in terms of heat transfer).

Ignoring for a moment the temperature you run your stove and whether that’s outwith the manufacturer’s recommended spec, you don’t seem to be appreciating fundamental thermodynamics, i.e. there is no free energy.  Water is a heat pig, it will take a certain amount of energy to heat – the fire is not ‘lit anyway’, it must heat the water, and that will have an impact on the heat given off to the room.  Whether or not you notice that is the actual question, but be under no doubt there is no free energy.  However, given you seemingly have the fire permanently going for 6 months a year (you must be getting free wood), at this point I doubt heating a kettle on the stove (ingoring the cost of the kettle) will impact your fuel bill OR your wood bill.

TLDR:  Want to actually save money, buy an electric kettle!
 

[discobob]

35 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

you don’t seem to be appreciating fundamental thermodynamics

He is on about the stove is already lit providing heating to them - if lit why not use it to heat water or anything else. Therefore the effect is that the water is heated for "free" - meanwhile clicking the Kettle on is a new usage of energy and would be extra to the cost of the energy being supplied by the fire - lighting a fire just to boil water would be useless - unless of course you get completely free wood suitable for the fire and it gets to heat and maintains without any interaction ("work") from yourself - including the loading of the wood

 

or just get a Breville One Cup

I have posted this previously 

Wife wants a cup of tea

• Boils kettle
• Realizes there isn't enough water in kettle
• Fills Kettle to the top
• Puts kettle onto boil - phones her mother
• x minutes (usually an hour+) ends phone call
• Realizes kettle is cold
• puts kettle on again - calls her sister
• Repeat x times
• Finally makes cup of tea with kettle being boiled x+2 times (where x+1 times it is full)

Enter the one cup

except now there is a new problem

Wife wants a cup of tea

• Puts cup under the one cup (no teabag/sugar) and presses the button
• Some time later returns to the cup and realizes it is cold water
• Puts cup in Microwave and pings it till hot 

I give up at this point 😭

 

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, discobob said:

He is on about the stove is already lit providing heating to them - if lit why not use it to heat water or anything else.

Because every joule of energy used to heat the water will not go towards heating the room!  Whether or not it's noticeable to the end user is another question, but it is NOT free.

More broadly: The OP is on about buying an expensive thermal kettle, to put on his stove, in order to save the money on gas which he currently uses to boil water.

My point is, he won't save any appreciable money, and if he truly wanted to save money compared to his current means to heat water, he'd buy an el-cheapo electric kettle.  This would remove the 'human factor' i.e., the kettle will actually turn itself off when the water boils.

Edited April 5, 2022 by udderlyoffroad