if its the end of lead, what about .410's

[Old farrier]

There should be exemptions for any caliber that manufacturers don’t produce ammunition for that is affordable and effective 

this will be 4.10 28  16 bore 

if it’s down to safety or just not possible that’s one thing 

but 

if it’s down to manufacturers economics it’ll be a very poor thing

 

 

[Walker570]

I have been shooting copper  TTSX for a number of years now and things still fall over if I do my job. I presently shoot copper TSX in my 22BR and foxes definitely complain about that. I probably fire around 500 410 shells a season maybe a few more but never kept a count. I have reloaded all my own for a number of years and am at present loading 2022 season supply in bismuth.  I have shot bismuth for a number of years as well as lead and to be brutally honest cannot tell the difference.  Yes, it is a fair bit more expensive, so if needed I will have to cut back on other non essentials.

I think as soon as the transition occurs then makers will produce what is required and at a reasonable cost.  Needin a wad in a 410 as well as a 28 gauge restricts the load and I use fibre wads so steel is out of the question.

I am visiting my local supplier and will be topping up my Webley Mosquitos for sure.

[Old farrier]

13 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

I have been shooting copper  TTSX for a number of years now and things still fall over if I do my job. I presently shoot copper TSX in my 22BR and foxes definitely complain about that. I probably fire around 500 410 shells a season maybe a few more but never kept a count. I have reloaded all my own for a number of years and am at present loading 2022 season supply in bismuth.  I have shot bismuth for a number of years as well as lead and to be brutally honest cannot tell the difference.  Yes, it is a fair bit more expensive, so if needed I will have to cut back on other non essentials.

I think as soon as the transition occurs then makers will produce what is required and at a reasonable cost.  Needin a wad in a 410 as well as a 28 gauge restricts the load and I use fibre wads so steel is out of the question.

I am visiting my local supplier and will be topping up my Webley Mosquitos for sure.

Well done 

however there’s lots of people in the various shooting sports that haven’t got the time or space available to reload ammunition

and this is the biggest thing 

they shouldn’t have to !!!

the transition period should be long enough for the manufacturers to get to grips with the problem of producing a effective affordable alternative

along with the shoots allowing plastic wads if they want you to shoot non lead ammunition to enable them to sell the game 

If it’s allowed to continue with them riding roughshod over the shooting community there will be tens of thousands of guns made obsolete around the country 

 

[Ultrastu]

I'd love there to be a.410 exemption .

And to be fair it can be justified . 

A .410 load is half the weight of a 12 b cart (approx) so half the lead .

Given that most .410s are used for vermin and not clay days or big game shoot days .

Then the usual  amount of  shots taken comparatively will be much much less  than 12b .

So it's fair to say by allowing .410 to keep lead  . Any 12b - .410 converts will shoot around 1/5 th of the amount of lead into the air as they used to (or probably much less ) .as has been said many times above .there isn't really a viable steel alternative  for .410 .there should be a resurgence in .410 cartridges and guns with costs not too prohibitive .

 

[Old farrier]

3 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

I'd love there to be a.410 exemption .

And to be fair it can be justified . 

A .410 load is half the weight of a 12 b cart (approx) so half the lead .

Given that most .410s are used for vermin and not clay days or big game shoot days .

Then the usual  amount of  shots taken comparatively will be much much less  than 12b .

So it's fair to say by allowing .410 to keep lead  . Any 12b - .410 converts will shoot around 1/5 th of the amount of lead into the air as they used to (or probably much less ) .as has been said many times above .there isn't really a viable steel alternative  for .410 .there should be a resurgence in .410 cartridges and guns with costs not too prohibitive .

 

Totally agree 

along with air gun pellets far to big to be ingested by birds along with the quantities fired in any area you rarely have a rat in the same place and most pellets don’t exit the pest 

aware some do with the high power rifle there’s got to be tens of thousands of low power air guns about the country that probably won’t function on anything other than lead 

I believe when they changed split lead shot for fishing it was just the small size shot that went 

[Scully]

The same could apply to .22rf in my opinion. I never leave anything in the field which is shot with my rimfire. The vast vast majority of my rabbits are head shot, and that goes in the bin along with the rest of the remains. 

[Windswept]

I've found 22rf often passes through quarry, and that's just subsonic hollow point. One of the reasons why I'm going to try the lead free stuff as it's meant to break up better. Shame it'll be far noisier and less accurate.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Windswept said:

I've found 22rf often passes through quarry, and that's just subsonic hollow point. One of the reasons why I'm going to try the lead free stuff as it's meant to break up better. Shame it'll be far noisier and less accurate.

I can’t say I’ve ever noticed an exit wound on a rabbit with .22 sub’ hp’s, can’t say the same for WMR. 

[London Best]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

I can’t say I’ve ever noticed an exit wound on a rabbit with .22 sub’ hp’s, can’t say the same for WMR. 

Quite the reverse!

I have never known a .22 sub hollow point NOT exit a rabbit, and I have shot a lot of rabbits. Only once have I taken a .22 out of anything and that was a hare, shot at over 100 yards diagonally through the shoulder. The bullet lodged in the opposite haunch.

[Scully]

1 minute ago, London Best said:

Quite the reverse!

I have never known a .22 sub hollow point NOT exit a rabbit, and I have shot a lot of rabbits. Only once have I taken a .22 out of anything and that was a hare, shot at over 100 yards diagonally through the shoulder. The bullet lodged in the opposite haunch.

Ah well. I have also shot a lot of rabbits; all head shot. Can’t say I’ve noticed. 
As you’ll know the entire point of a hollow point is expansion rather than over penetration. 🤷‍♂️

[London Best]

Just now, Scully said:

Ah well. I have also shot a lot of rabbits; all head shot. Can’t say I’ve noticed. 
As you’ll know the entire point of a hollow point is expansion rather than over penetration. 🤷‍♂️

To be fair, my HW77 often exits a rabbits head.

[Old farrier]

5 minutes ago, London Best said:

To be fair, my HW77 often exits a rabbits head.

Well that’s it then it’s a consultation and you’re painting a good picture for banning the rimfire ammo and air gun pellets 

 

personally think neither poses a risk to human or animal health nor to the environment in the relatively small quantities used compared with 12 bore shotgun ammunition 

[London Best]

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

Well that’s it then it’s a consultation and you’re painting a good picture for banning the rimfire ammo and air gun pellets 

 

personally think neither poses a risk to human or animal health nor to the environment in the relatively small quantities used compared with 12 bore shotgun ammunition 

Actually, this is not the consultation, this is pigeon watch and I was discussing penetration of .22 subs with Scully.

I do agree 100% with your second statement.

[Scully]

25 minutes ago, London Best said:

To be fair, my HW77 often exits a rabbits head.

No doubt the lead ban will rectify over penetration. 

[Old farrier]

18 minutes ago, London Best said:

Actually, this is not the consultation, this is pigeon watch and I was discussing penetration of .22 subs with Scully.

I do agree 100% with your second statement.

It’s also a open forum it would be very nieve to think that as part of the consultation this thread and others on many shooting forums won’t be viewed by members of the HSE 

should we really be putting fuel onto the fire 

[Scully]

24 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

It’s also a open forum it would be very nieve to think that as part of the consultation this thread and others on many shooting forums won’t be viewed by members of the HSE 

should we really be putting fuel onto the fire 

I wouldn’t worry too much, the decision has already been made. 

[Ultrastu]

13 minutes ago, Scully said:

I wouldn’t worry too much, the decision has already been made. 

🤣

Most likely. 

I believe  the reason you haven't noticed an exit wound on a rabbit skull is because .22 lr sub hollow point bullets don't expand on rabbit skulls .the skulls  are way to soft and shallow and fragile to even slow the bullet down let alone make it expand .as such the bullet leaves a nice neat 5.5m hole on the opposite side that is hidden by fur .

The  rabbit brain hemorrhaging   usually come out of the ear .(as you will have seen) and hence not from the exit hole .

Edited May 19, 2022 by Ultrastu

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

🤣

Most likely. 

I believe  the reason you haven't noticed an exit wound on a rabbit skull is because .22 lr sub hollow point bullets don't expand on rabbit skulls .they are way to soft and shallow and fragile to even slow the bullet down let alone make it expand .as such the bullet leaves a nice neat 5.5m hole on the opposite side that is hidden by fur .

The  rabbit brain hemorrhaging   usually come out of the ear .(as you will have seen) and hence not from the exit hole .

I’ll have to take your word for it; like I say, I’ve never noticed and I couldn’t even hazard a guess at how many I’ve shot. 

[Old farrier]

10 hours ago, Scully said:

I wouldn’t worry too much, the decision has already been made. 

Realise that

however should we do the science for them 

It’s supposed to be science based 

although it’s already done and dusted 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

Realise that

however should we do the science for them 

It’s supposed to be science based 

although it’s already done and dusted 

They’re a government agency and as such will interpret the science according to the brief they have been given, based on agenda. 

[Old farrier]

11 minutes ago, Scully said:

They’re a government agency and as such will interpret the science according to the brief they have been given, based on agenda. 

It’ll be interesting to see it though 🙄

it’s pretty obvious the agenda is to make any sort of gun ownership untenable for the majority 

although I hope I’m wrong 

[Walker570]

16 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

I'd love there to be a.410 exemption .

And to be fair it can be justified . 

A .410 load is half the weight of a 12 b cart (approx) so half the lead .

Given that most .410s are used for vermin and not clay days or big game shoot days .

Then the usual  amount of  shots taken comparatively will be much much less  than 12b .

So it's fair to say by allowing .410 to keep lead  . Any 12b - .410 converts will shoot around 1/5 th of the amount of lead into the air as they used to (or probably much less ) .as has been said many times above .there isn't really a viable steel alternative  for .410 .there should be a resurgence in .410 cartridges and guns with costs not too prohibitive .

 

I agree with you totally...I'm now in my 80th decade and since birth I have been in a shooting family. Over those years I have seen lead shot used and put back into the environment from whence it came and to date I have yet to learn of anyadverse effects on humans and bird poisoning is debateable as most of the lead intake of waterfowl was from fishing leads.  In certain circumstances for instance the rice fields and such in California where shooters queue in a morning to be allowed to shoot and huge amounts of lead is fired then specific non toxic loads could be enforced.  I think it was another tap on the thin end of the wedge to try and bring sport shooting to an end.    The choice should be ours and I am sure common sense would prevail.  The estate I am mainly booked with this coming season as asked for non toxic and I am happy to comply by reloading bismuth for my 410 but if not requested then I will use lead until it is finally totally band.

[ditchman]

what is the make up of present non-toxic centre fire rounds.......

[wymberley]

51 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

I agree with you totally...I'm now in my 80th decade and since birth I have been in a shooting family. Over those years I have seen lead shot used and put back into the environment from whence it came and to date I have yet to learn of anyadverse effects on humans and bird poisoning is debateable as most of the lead intake of waterfowl was from fishing leads.  In certain circumstances for instance the rice fields and such in California where shooters queue in a morning to be allowed to shoot and huge amounts of lead is fired then specific non toxic loads could be enforced.  I think it was another tap on the thin end of the wedge to try and bring sport shooting to an end.    The choice should be ours and I am sure common sense would prevail.  The estate I am mainly booked with this coming season as asked for non toxic and I am happy to comply by reloading bismuth for my 410 but if not requested then I will use lead until it is finally totally band.

You'll be OK. Look what David did with a sling and you're the same age. 

[London Best]

1 hour ago, ditchman said:

what is the make up of present non-toxic centre fire rounds.......

Most are solid copper with either a hollow point or plastic tip/wedge to splay petals. RWS do a fragmenting tin front/copper rear.