Another shotkam thread...

[Pops_Hants]

1 hour ago, retromlc said:

I guess it's a personal choice thing, my nature is to analyze everything, eb if the camera shows that in general I'm just behind I will try to just push a little more lead as I never know where the shot went, I'm a fiddler with everything looking to find the best results for me, my friend in the other hand has a benilli U825?? Fully adjustable/multie choked etc, he's never touched it and just shoots the chokes that were screwed in when he bought it, it could have skeet and full for all he cares, and he's a much better shot than me, when I ask him about lead etc he just says "I dunno I just shoot at it" he's a natural and builds it all in without thinking, he's about 85% average, me I have to work very hard at everything just to be average 

I think this sums it up quite well, it depends on your personality and who you are and also what you're trying to achieve.

 

For some, they will never understand or want to understand the mechanics behind it and they can hit the majority of targets with a fair amount of natural ability. For others, they will want to analyse every target individually, changing chokes between stands and then potentially still missing more than they hit.

My original question was regards to owners of shotkams, and simply "did it help". I don't think that has a definitive answer, as there are so few using the camera for anything more than a bit of youtube video memorabilia, and there is also far more to do before even thinking about getting a shotkam, and that in itself is the most useful answer - work not the free stuff first, practice mounting etc.

There seems to be a few who are also dead against the shotkam, but with some really good advice, which I'm taking on board and next time I'm shooting I've had a friend offer to watch what I'm doing and provide feedback as well as constructive criticism (Thanks @HantsRob).

At the end of the day, it boils down to your own character and what you want to achieve. I want to hit more targets, and for it to be fun. I think shotkam will take the fun out of it as I attempt to not over analyse, but for others, it could be a very useful tool.

[Agriv8]

On 13/11/2022 at 08:09, Pops_Hants said:

Apologies for starting yet another shotkam thread, I've searched this forum a few times and found lots of posts regarding discounted sales, setting them up and some useful videos and pictures.

 

However, what I really want to know is - did it improve your shooting?

I'm early in my shooting career and miss more than I hit, I've made some changes, had some lessons and I have seen improvement, however, I still have no idea why I miss when I do. Very rarely can I see shot pattern etc and therefore I am looking at all the help available. There's plenty of people on the tinterweb that will say shotkam is brilliant etc, but I am not so inclined to follow the trends on youtube or reviews on the shotkam website.

 

PW member to member, if you've used them - did they help, and how much effort is it to review in the field on your phone? I've tried rewatching go pro videos instantly and it's incredibly time consuming to watch them on the phone.

 

TIA

Hi I have one and I enjoy using it.

I use it for sporting layouts and has improved my scores. 
 

Being able to dissect why you hit 3 and then missed is invaluable be it mis mount or different pick up point or just rushing the shot

my only down side it does change the balance point of your gun every more so the longer the barrel.

they are a big investment put a request out on here someone may have one you can borrow and try.

mines changing up ready for the weekend’s activities 

Agriv8

[TIGHTCHOKE]

On 15/11/2022 at 13:17, Shotkam said:

Shooting is such a subjective subject that people will always disagree.

Everyone seems to be happy at a different level of success when it comes to shooting, which is fair enough. Those who have really wished to improve to a higher level have generally put in a lot of time and effort to attain those levels of mastery.

The vast majority of clay shooters who are in the 90s ex. 100 will be very familiar with all the points I have raised in this thread, whereas others may consider these areas of shooting a foreign language.

You can only speak as you see things, some may find your experiences a waste of time and others may see a value.

Hopefully the original poster has found our feedback useful.

I am an ex AAA shot, please explain NEGATIVE LEAD.

[retromlc]

I think I saw this on YouTube, apparently you start off way in front then ease back to the correct lead... Who knew

I suppose a tennis racket is a  negative lead situation, bring the racket to the strike point, I was watching that massive rugby player shot explain how he's reinvented the wheel with his slice shot, we've been lining up in the pickup point then dropping the barrel's out the line keeping out heads in the same position for years, still missing though...

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Oh well Shotkam has ducked that one then!   

[Shotkam]

On 16/11/2022 at 19:46, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I am an ex AAA shot, please explain NEGATIVE LEAD.

Just seen the above post:

Negative lead is the opposite to positive lead - the gap between where the gun is pointing and the back of the target.

For example : 

Some people when driven game shooting, will mount the gun 3ft behind the bird ( 3ft negative lead ) then swing through the bird before pulling the trigger at a given point, be it when they are passing the birds beak or 8ft in front of the bird depending on the usual distance, speed and angle.

 

[HantsRob]

So swing through in old money then, and a new name for an old technique?

[Pops_Hants]

1 minute ago, HantsRob said:

So swing through in old money then, and a new name for an old technique?

Marketing departments got to earn somehow! I prefer @retromlc's idea though

[Shotkam]

44 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

So swing through in old money then, and a new name for an old technique?

This is not a new name for swing through, but it can be applied to that method.

The important element is to be consistent in the negative lead gap that you apply to any given shot, the same as being consistent in everything else, which the better shots manage to achieve.

[London Best]

Bulls**t baffles brains.

[Shotkam]

15 minutes ago, London Best said:

Bulls**t baffles brains.

 

15 minutes ago, London Best said:

Bulls**t baffles brains.

It certainly can - but this is basic Physics and will only be of interest to some who choose to learn to understand it of course.

[HantsRob]

2 hours ago, Pops_Hants said:

Marketing departments got to earn somehow! I prefer @retromlc's idea though

"new and improved" is my favourite. Is it new, or improved?

Actually slightly apt if negative hold is the same as swi

1 hour ago, Shotkam said:

This is not a new name for swing through, but it can be applied to that method.

The important element is to be consistent in the negative lead gap that you apply to any given shot, the same as being consistent in everything else, which the better shots manage to achieve.

You literally use the phrase and definition of swing through.... what would you say is the difference?

I believe Ben Husthwaite uses negative hold with swing through.... rather than negative lead? Negative hold would make more sense than negative lead for my simple brain.

I'm not picking a fight, just trying to learn and don't understand negative lead. It's an oxymoron as negative lead, whereas negative hold is an absolute value... also it would define the starting position, rather than style of shooting. 

I swear I am trying to understand negative lead....

 

 

 

 

[Shotkam]

31 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

"new and improved" is my favourite. Is it new, or improved?

Actually slightly apt if negative hold is the same as swi

You literally use the phrase and definition of swing through.... what would you say is the difference?

I believe Ben Husthwaite uses negative hold with swing through.... rather than negative lead? Negative hold would make more sense than negative lead for my simple brain.

I'm not picking a fight, just trying to learn and don't understand negative lead. It's an oxymoron as negative lead, whereas negative hold is an absolute value... also it would define the starting position, rather than style of shooting. 

I swear I am trying to understand negative lead....

 

 

 

 

Point taken thankyou.

Ok, I'll re assess and call it 'negative gap'.

 

For example : 

Some people when driven game shooting, will mount the gun 3ft behind the bird ( 3ft negative gap ) which allows time for the brain to learn the line and speed of the bird, then they swing through the bird before pulling the trigger at a given point to give a positive gap (lead), be it when they are passing the birds beak or 8ft in front of the bird depending on the distance, speed and angle.

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Shotkam

[Old farrier]

No no no 

negative lead used here frequently it’s on a normal windy day about 60 miles per hour and the birds only flying at 40 miles an hour so you have to shoot behind it to hit it 

3 hours ago, HantsRob said:

So swing through in old money then, and a new name for an old technique?

 

[Scully]

13 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

Point taken thankyou.

Ok, I'll re assess and call it 'negative gap'.

 

For example : 

Some people when driven game shooting, will mount the gun 3ft behind the bird ( 3ft negative gap )

which allows time for the brain to learn the line and speed of the bird, then they swing through the bird before pulling

the trigger at a given point to give a positive gap (lead), be it when they are passing the birds beak or 8ft in front of the

bird depending on the distance, speed and angle.

 

Which is the method I employ on ANY moving live quarry, but have always referred to it as swing through. 
It doesn’t really matter at what distance you pick up the target in my opinion, because live quarry are unpredictable and appear from anywhere, making it less practical to have a consistent ‘gap’,  but I can see how it could apply to clays. 
I agree negative ‘hold’ is a more accurate term. 
 

[Shotkam]

35 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

"new and improved" is my favourite. Is it new, or improved?

Actually slightly apt if negative hold is the same as swi

You literally use the phrase and definition of swing through.... what would you say is the difference?

I believe Ben Husthwaite uses negative hold with swing through.... rather than negative lead? Negative hold would make more sense than negative lead for my simple brain.

I'm not picking a fight, just trying to learn and don't understand negative lead. It's an oxymoron as negative lead, whereas negative hold is an absolute value... also it would define the starting position, rather than style of shooting. 

I swear I am trying to understand negative lead....

 

 

 

 

You literally use the phrase and definition of swing through.... what would you say is the difference?

Sorry missed the above - most peoples swing through seems to involve the gun entering the shot at no specific distance behind the bird, so not consistent as no specific value of 'negative gap' is employed.

I see Ben H. calls the gap negative lead and negative hold also - not very consistent ha ha.

 

[Shotkam]

9 minutes ago, Scully said:

Which is the method I employ on ANY moving live quarry, but have always referred to it as swing through. 
It doesn’t really matter at what distance you pick up the target in my opinion, because live quarry are unpredictable and appear from anywhere, making it less practical to have a consistent ‘gap’,  but I can see how it could apply to clays. 
I agree negative ‘hold’ is a more accurate term. 
 

Ah, but some people don't hold the gap, they start the swing through almost as the gun hits their shoulder.

Whereas others 'maintain a negative gap' behind the bird for a time- or perhaps it should be 'hold a negative gap'.

Everyone should be completely bored by now - sorry.

I don't shoot game like this by the way and my method would definitely not suit the majority.

[TK421]

Jesus Christ, mods close this thread, the shotkam debate has run its course, we now have a must have the last clap scenario here 😂. Negative hold gap lead ********. Next thing we’ll all be fitting strange drain pipe attachments to the end of out barrels, oh hang on, that’s already out there ***. 

[Scully]

11 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

Ah, but some people don't hold the gap, they start the swing through almost as the gun hits their shoulder.

Whereas others 'maintain a negative gap' behind the bird for a time- or perhaps it should be 'hold a negative gap'.

Everyone should be completely bored by now - sorry.

I don't shoot game like this by the way and my method would definitely not suit the majority.

Does that matter? As a live quarry shooter you sometimes don’t have time to hold ANY gap; it’s not unknown to be surprised by quarry to the extent you just throw up the gun into your shoulder and sweep through at great speed. In this instance I wouldn’t be aware of any gap at all. 

Trap shooting is totally different in many aspects. 

[Shotkam]

3 minutes ago, Scully said:

Does that matter? As a live quarry shooter you sometimes don’t have time to hold ANY gap; it’s not unknown to be surprised by quarry to the extent you just throw up the gun into your shoulder and sweep through at great speed. In this instance I wouldn’t be aware of any gap at all. 

Trap shooting is totally different in many aspects. 

I totally agree, relying on pure instinct, which is in fact your subconscious mind taking over, although you are not aware of that of course.

The subconscious will always beat the conscious mind  

[HantsRob]

51 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

No no no 

negative lead used here frequently it’s on a normal windy day about 60 miles per hour and the birds only flying at 40 miles an hour so you have to shoot behind it to hit it 

 

….. wow. That I’d like to see, it sounds all sorts of wrong! That’s not doubt, your experience just has me in awe with that comment. 

1 hour ago, Shotkam said:

Point taken thankyou.

Ok, I'll re assess and call it 'negative gap'.

That makes a lot more sense to me, and I appreciate your patience. 
 

it still sounds wrong to me, but we all have our different sight patterns. 
 

oh and I’ve never shot birds so looking from a clay only perspective. 

[Shotkam]

10 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

….. wow. That I’d like to see, it sounds all sorts of wrong! That’s not doubt, your experience just has me in awe with that comment. 

That makes a lot more sense to me, and I appreciate your patience. 
 

it still sounds wrong to me, but we all have our different sight patterns. 
 

oh and I’ve never shot birds so looking from a clay only perspective. 

That is the beauty of a ShotKam - everything can be slowed down and it all makes so much more sense when you take the guesswork/ perception out of the equation !

[oowee]

Just now, Shotkam said:

That is the beauty of a ShotKam - everything can be slowed down and it all makes so much more sense when you take the guesswork/ perception out of the equation !

Does it allow for wind? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

6 hours ago, Shotkam said:

Just seen the above post:

Negative lead is the opposite to positive lead - the gap between where the gun is pointing and the back of the target.

For example : 

Some people when driven game shooting, will mount the gun 3ft behind the bird ( 3ft negative lead ) then swing through the bird before pulling the trigger at a given point, be it when they are passing the birds beak or 8ft in front of the bird depending on the usual distance, speed and angle.

Complete and utter balderdash!   

If it is NEGATIVE it is NOT by simple definition LEAD!

You cannot LEAD something without being in FRONT.   

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Complete and utter balderdash!   

If it is NEGATIVE it is NOT by simple definition LEAD!

You cannot LEAD something without being in FRONT.   

But this is PW so anything’s possible 😂😂😂