Lead ammunition review extended by 6 months after 'overwhelming response'

[enfieldspares]

This derogation for .410" that'd be like the New Zealand situation then. The New Zealand situation that BASC dismissed as not appropriate to the UK?

[Scully]

On 24/02/2023 at 20:43, Conor O'Gorman said:

@neutron619 very interesting posts above and earlier - lots of food for thought on the bigger picture.

@Scully your suspicions don't make any sense to me if you don't mind me saying so and that's from the perspective of being closely involved in fighting lead ban proposals with BASC for over a decade. Nine countryside organisations started encouraging a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting for the reasons that were stated 3 years ago. And as mentioned previously the Q&A at BASC's 2020 AGM provides further insight. As regards how BASC makes policy decisions in consultation with members that was also covered earlier.
 

Well it’s simple enough really….ministers say jump and BASC ask how high before trying to devise a strategy of placating their membership. I had this very conversation with Mike Eveleigh many moons ago, and nothing has improved. 
BASC don’t consult their membership but do consult other organisations? Presumably to pass on instructions from above? 
I was once extremely proud to belong to what I thought was an effective shooting organisation, but over the years have become extremely disappointed with its ineffectiveness in even fighting ( let alone pushing back ) ever increasing encroachment into my way of life. 
When I add up all that UK shooters have lost even during the short time I’ve been involved, it is clear our poor defence against this sort of insidious creeping bombardment for no other reason than political expediency, is as unsustainable as it is unfair and outrageous, and now we are potentially looking at removal of S2 firearms and the catastrophic effect this will have on our sport, shooters and a licensing body not fit for purpose. 

[Scully]

9 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

This derogation for .410" that'd be like the New Zealand situation then. The New Zealand situation that BASC dismissed as not appropriate to the UK?

There will be no exemption for .410, there simply can’t be; lead is either toxic or it isn’t, and despite the excellent logical post of Neutron, BASC know there won’t be any exemptions, which is why they aren’t pushing for it. It would make a mockery of the so called science, and won’t happen. 
The first thing to happen if there was an exemption, is that sales of .410’s would rocket. 
I know I’d buy one, and I know I wouldn’t be on my own. 

[Old farrier]

If there is no deregulation for the 4.10 or the 9mm and 22rimfire it will be a very sad day 

we all know that there is no real viable alternative for these calibers 

could I ask if this is the case are BASC and the other organisations pushing for either a buyback scheme or a compensation package 

if so what is being asked for and if not WHY NOT ?

[Rewulf]

46 minutes ago, Scully said:

Well it’s simple enough really….ministers say jump and BASC ask how high before trying to devise a strategy of placating their membership. I had this very conversation with Mike Eveleigh many moons ago, and nothing has improved. 
BASC don’t consult their membership but do consult other organisations? Presumably to pass on instructions from above? 
I was once extremely proud to belong to what I thought was an effective shooting organisation, but over the years have become extremely disappointed with its ineffectiveness in even fighting ( let alone pushing back ) ever increasing encroachment into my way of life. 
When I add up all that UK shooters have lost even during the short time I’ve been involved, it is clear our poor defence against this sort of insidious creeping bombardment for no other reason than political expediency, is as unsustainable as it is unfair and outrageous, and now we are potentially looking at removal of S2 firearms and the catastrophic effect this will have on our sport, shooters and a licensing body not fit for purpose. 

Couldn't have put it better Scully, the best bit is we pay them for the privilege. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

@Scully in my role working for BASC on policy I do not recognise the narrative that you are presenting. It sounds like you are saying that because you had a conversation with someone many moons ago that your viewpoint is fact and negates my feedback to you. Perhaps you might consider supporting BASC's work in tackling the challenges ahead, not least on ammunition and firearms licensing. 

@enfieldspares I have passed on your feedback/suggestion to colleagues on 9mm R/F and .22" R/F shotgun cartridges. In our consultation response we looked specifically at 28 bore and .410 shotgun cartridges, referencing the high cost of bismuth alternatives, explaining that we were aware of only one provider globally (Federal Ammunition) that offers steel loads for .410 and/or 28 bore cartridge, referenced the current high cost of these options, explained that in any case they are not available in the UK and it is unknown whether these options would fall within CIP proof requirements. We explained that significant development is required for the UK market for cost comparative .410 and 28 bore steel shot loads to become available, that given the smaller action of smaller bore shotguns they are often popular with children, women and disabled participants, and as such the proposed restrictions, if brought in without cost comparative alternatives to lead available, would disproportionately impact these groups.

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

@enfieldspares I have passed on your feedback/suggestion to colleagues on 9mm R/F and .22" R/F shotgun cartridges. 

Thank you. I hope that they do indeed follow this up and make the relevant email or telephone enquiries. I think that a mere fifteen emails would get the answers.

I would also ask, please, if there might be also enquiry for an exemption for shotguns made before the 1955 (pre 1954 Rules of Proof) date that the two Proof Houses suggest is the post-date for using steel. As I have said if the only alternative if steel cannot be sued in such old guns is prohibitively expensive bismuth then in effect that is no alternative at all but a de facto ending of their use. 

There is precedent for a date cut-off, as Bill Harriman will know, in s7 of the Firearms Act regarding "historic pistols" so a date, albeit that of 1955 could apply for lead in shotguns. This date could be easily checked by 1) maker's records, 2) family knowledge or 3) the date of the first proof of the gun irrespective of any later re-proof date. My own suggestion is preference to but 1) and 2).

Edited February 27, 2023 by enfieldspares

[Gas seal]

Hi regarding small gauge shot guns , how many.22 and 9mm will be registered and would it be possible to find out. . Also there must be 24gauge shot guns registered as cartridges are available and loading components are available. Knowing the numbers of guns involved may help and who makes the ammunition for them. I know fiocchi make 9mm and 24gauge cartridges, they also make older types of firearm rounds. 
  Another survey has been done on lead pellets in shop bought game birds, and the woodcock season will be discussed in parliament today 4. 30pm ish if anyone is interested. Please don’t shoot the messenger, lead or non lead.

[Scully]

17 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

Hi regarding small gauge shot guns , how many.22 and 9mm will be registered and would it be possible to find out. . Also there must be 24gauge shot guns registered as cartridges are available and loading components are available. Knowing the numbers of guns involved may help and who makes the ammunition for them. I know fiocchi make 9mm and 24gauge cartridges, they also make older types of firearm rounds. 
  Another survey has been done on lead pellets in shop bought game birds, and the woodcock season will be discussed in parliament today 4. 30pm ish if anyone is interested. Please don’t shoot the messenger, lead or non lead.

Surveys regarding lead shot in shop bought game birds don’t mean a thing; it is perfectly legal to shoot game birds with lead. 

[Gas seal]

Hi yes it is legal, l know the law. I’ve no interest in the sale of game birds dead or alive, even less interest in commercial shooting . Maybe they don’t mean a thing, it means nothing to me. A few years ago there was a similar thing about wildfowl shot with lead. I thought game shooters would like to know what is happening. The same for woodcock shooters. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

The lead in pheasant meat survey results are here:

https://phys.org/news/2023-02-voluntary-uk-phase-toxic-shot.html

Edited February 27, 2023 by Conor O'Gorman

[Fellside]

Sorry I’m missing the point here. Why would pheasants contain anything other than lead shot? It’s perfectly legal and legitimate. 

[Stonepark]

3 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Sorry I’m missing the point here. Why would pheasants contain anything other than lead shot? It’s perfectly legal and legitimate. 

Not to mention very effective...

 

[Scully]

39 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The lead in pheasant meat survey results are here:

https://phys.org/news/2023-02-voluntary-uk-phase-toxic-shot.html

It is a pledge made by shooting organisations without consultation of their respective membership. 
Maybe if they had done so they would perhaps have been left in no doubt as to what their membership thought of that pledge. 
I don’t know of ANY shooters of ANY discipline that have said they would stop using lead while it was still legal to do so. 
I am about to respond to this survey and make them aware of this fact, and a few others. 

[Weihrauch17]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

It is a pledge made by shooting organisations without consultation of their respective membership. 
Maybe if they had done so they would perhaps have been left in no doubt as to what their membership thought of that pledge. 
I don’t know of ANY shooters of ANY discipline that have said they would stop using lead while it was still legal to do so. 
I am about to respond to this survey and make them aware of this fact, and a few others. 

This.

[Scully]

21 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

@Scully in my role working for BASC on policy I do not recognise the narrative that you are presenting. It sounds like you are saying that because you had a conversation with someone many moons ago that your viewpoint is fact and negates my feedback to you. Perhaps you might consider supporting BASC's work in tackling the challenges ahead, not least on ammunition and firearms licensing. 

@enfieldspares I have passed on your feedback/suggestion to colleagues on 9mm R/F and .22" R/F shotgun cartridges. In our consultation response we looked specifically at 28 bore and .410 shotgun cartridges, referencing the high cost of bismuth alternatives, explaining that we were aware of only one provider globally (Federal Ammunition) that offers steel loads for .410 and/or 28 bore cartridge, referenced the current high cost of these options, explained that in any case they are not available in the UK and it is unknown whether these options would fall within CIP proof requirements. We explained that significant development is required for the UK market for cost comparative .410 and 28 bore steel shot loads to become available, that given the smaller action of smaller bore shotguns they are often popular with children, women and disabled participants, and as such the proposed restrictions, if brought in without cost comparative alternatives to lead available, would disproportionately impact these groups.

It wasn’t just the one conversation though Conor; there were many over many years, all with the same unfortunate outcome which still applies today in that in reality there’s not a lot BASC can do about creeping interference into my way of life. 
I am actively involved in letting my feelings be known both on this forum and further afield regarding licensing and ammunition, but the latter is already a done deal as our organisations have already committed us to the demise of lead shot and have like I said, launched a campaign of damage limitation. 
The jury is still out on the licensing issue, but rather than be surprised if we don’t end up with the loss of S2, I’d be more surprised if we don’t. 
 

[harkom]

16 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The lead in pheasant meat survey results are here:

https://phys.org/news/2023-02-voluntary-uk-phase-toxic-shot.html

Correct me if I am wrong  but has BSAC not been - for a number of years - promoting the consumption of game meat and benefits thereof. Seemingly all without having done any research to confirm benefits vs risk of consuming shot game?

Over to you Con........

[Scully]

2 hours ago, harkom said:

Correct me if I am wrong  but has BSAC not been - for a number of years - promoting the consumption of game meat and benefits thereof. Seemingly all without having done any research to confirm benefits vs risk of consuming shot game?

Over to you Con........

🙂 And yet another valid point!
However, you’ve made the mistake of thinking this is all about lead, whereas it isn’t; lead plays a very small part in the creeping agenda which is at play here. Don’t blame yourself, it’s an easy mistake to make. 🙂

[Rewulf]

19 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The lead in pheasant meat survey results are here:

https://phys.org/news/2023-02-voluntary-uk-phase-toxic-shot.html

Some issues with the info in the link/survey.

The University  team recovered pellets from 235  out of 356 birds, and used analysis of these to decide how many birds were shot with lead, what of the other birds ?
Did a top level university not have the means to test meat from the other birds for lead particles ?

What if the other 121 birds were shot with steel and they passed through, or steel was recovered in preparation.
Just strikes me as unscientific.

Also certain comments reveal a definite bias at work, and some clear inaccuracies .

'discarded shot from hunting poisons and kills tens of thousands of the UK's wild birds each year.'

Very little evidence to support this, and even if it were true , it pales into insignificance when industry, and domestic cats , are a far greater threat to wild birds.

'This is the third consecutive year the team has conducted the analysis. Their latest study shows a small improvement on the 2021/22 and 2021/20 shooting seasons, when over 99% of the pheasants studied were shot using lead ammunition.'

I wasnt aware of there being much a  shooting season in 21/22 ,  werent we locked down in 20/21 , and this last season was heavily curtailed for bird flu ect ?
Its making me wonder how these surveys were conducted TBH.

'Lead has been banned from use in paint and petrol for decades.'

This simply isnt true, lead is still used in paint, albeit in no where near the same quantities.
Zinc is often used as an anti rust alternative, is zinc safe , no.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint#:~:text=Lead paint has been generally,traffic paint are readily available.

Leaded petrol still used in light aircraft , creating a delightful aerosol effect .

https://www.popsci.com/when-will-we-see-unleaded-av-gas/

[Smudger687]

5 hours ago, Scully said:

It wasn’t just the one conversation though Conor; there were many over many years, all with the same unfortunate outcome which still applies today in that in reality there’s not a lot BASC can do about creeping interference into my way of life. 
I am actively involved in letting my feelings be known both on this forum and further afield regarding licensing and ammunition, but the latter is already a done deal as our organisations have already committed us to the demise of lead shot and have like I said, launched a campaign of damage limitation. 
The jury is still out on the licensing issue, but rather than be surprised if we don’t end up with the loss of S2, I’d be more surprised if we don’t. 
 

Loss of S2 would strip all the fun out of shotguns - I don't want big brother breathing down my neck all the time as per S1. Even if I had "good reason" for owning the shotguns I do, I'm not sure I could bring myself to prostrate myself before the police and endure the endless hoops I'd have to jump through. 

The US would become an extremely attractive place to live if it happened. 

[harkom]

Rewulf 👍..... A very short IT search will reveal Prof Green's credentials and history. Biased? You bet. Activist - probably but certainly anti- shooting agenda. One would have thought that BSAC would have carried out pre-emptive screening of the HSE panel appointees, huh?

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, harkom said:

Rewulf 👍..... A very short IT search will reveal Prof Green's credentials and history. Biased? You bet. Activist - probably but certainly anti- shooting agenda. One would have thought that BSAC would have carried out pre-emptive screening of the HSE panel appointees, huh?

Thanks for that  

It all gets clearer as time goes by ....

[Penelope]

On 21/02/2023 at 15:23, Rewulf said:

There is little to no evidence of detrimental effects in humans, where lead shot birds have gone into the food chain

Where as tobacco and alcohol are unequivocally known to cause harm, yet............

As you say, nowt to do with health but all about the agenda.

[Penelope]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Its making me wonder how these surveys were conducted TBH.

Back of a fag packet recyclable yogurt pot in a tofu bar.

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, Penelope said:

As you say, nowt to do with health but all about the agenda.

What annoys me the most , is that orgs like BASC refuse to even acknowledge there IS an agenda.
This speaks volumes, because , if as I suspect they are an instrument of the agenda, they wouldnt mention it.

Ive asked Conor several times now , in public and PM , if BASC had prior knowledge that the HSE, via the government , was going to bring in a lead ban.
He has so far refused/ignored the question, its not a hard question , he could just lie and say no ?
Again , this speaks volumes.

2 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Back of a fag packet recyclable yogurt pot in a tofu bar.

Bout right , a bit like when Ferguson decided how many covid deaths there was going to be , based on err, something...