Steel explained, simply

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Dave at kelton said:

You can see where this is going. Just like mobile phones, manufacturers reinventing the wheel just to be able to sell new ones by declaring the last model as out of date. You must have HP Steel Proof to be safe so come and buy our latest……blah blah blah. Trading on fear. Well, having shot standard steel in an old thin walled SxS English sidelock, in a modern but not steel proof OU, and HP steel in standard proofed semi auto with tight choke, I won’t be upgrading! None of the aforesaid have suffered any adverse side effects and nor have I.

👍 I won’t be upgrading either, I simply don’t see the need. 
Anyhow, just to add to the confusion, have just watched a YouTube video of some bloke and a very basic patterning test of Gamebore, Hull and Eley steel cartridges through a skeet choke. He said they were standard steel 3’s, but I thought anything bigger than 4 was HP? Am I mistaken? 
Anyhow, good patterns out to 40 yds with skeet, would be interesting to see what quarter would do, given that that seems to be becoming the consensus for HP steel, but I can do that myself. 

[London Best]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

👍 I won’t be upgrading either, I simply don’t see the need. 
Anyhow, just to add to the confusion, have just watched a YouTube video of some bloke and a very basic patterning test of Gamebore, Hull and Eley steel cartridges through a skeet choke. He said they were standard steel 3’s, but I thought anything bigger than 4 was HP? Am I mistaken? 
Anyhow, good patterns out to 40 yds with skeet, would be interesting to see what quarter would do, given that that seems to be becoming the consensus for HP steel, but I can do that myself. 

Another one here who won’t be ‘upgrading’ anything. Absolutely no need.    My guns have already had steel through them (quite a lot in one case) with no ill effects. 
My lovely old best side lock will be 98 years old when I am 80. 
I don’t expect any wear/deterioration/problems, but I really don’t care if it’s knackered when I am.

[Dave at kelton]

10 hours ago, London Best said:

Another one here who won’t be ‘upgrading’ anything. Absolutely no need.    My guns have already had steel through them (quite a lot in one case) with no ill effects. 
My lovely old best side lock will be 98 years old when I am 80. 
I don’t expect any wear/deterioration/problems, but I really don’t care if it’s knackered when I am.

Agreed and interesting to have read Bill Harrimans article on using steel in an old percussion gun, in this months BASC magazine. No protection and no damage to Damascus or twist steel barrels! Not sure I will follow suit in my percussion guns but there we go. Admittedly will be slower loads with less pressure than nitro but…..

[London Best]

49 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

Agreed and interesting to have read Bill Harrimans article on using steel in an old percussion gun, in this months BASC magazine. No protection and no damage to Damascus or twist steel barrels! Not sure I will follow suit in my percussion guns but there we go. Admittedly will be slower loads with less pressure than nitro but…..

I went to one of the BASC ‘Try Politically Correct Ammunition’ days. 
Just for curiosity I took my 1865 Damascus Dickson. The gunsmith (Giles Marriott) checked it over and told me if it were his he would put any cartridge he liked through those barrels!

[wymberley]

13 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

ive got a slab of eley vip eco steel  32g 3s at 1230fps

Casually following this thread, but can't find these detailed either by Eley or Just C'. Could you add a physical size for these?

[Old farrier]

I’m going to add to the confusion now 🤔

one would assume that if you were to send your gun to the proof houses for hp steel proof they would use a larger load of powder and larger amounts of steel shot in a proof loading 

not quite like that it appears that steel proof is tested with a lead load 

it done on pressure measurements at and near the breech no measurements are taken or required at the choke area of the muzzle 

so you’re steel proof gun is actually proofed for a higher pressure lead cartridge 

🤔

[Big Mat]

38 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

I’m going to add to the confusion now 🤔

one would assume that if you were to send your gun to the proof houses for hp steel proof they would use a larger load of powder and larger amounts of steel shot in a proof loading 

not quite like that it appears that steel proof is tested with a lead load 

it done on pressure measurements at and near the breech no measurements are taken or required at the choke area of the muzzle 

so you’re steel proof gun is actually proofed for a higher pressure lead cartridge 

🤔

They proof with a steel cartridge,  I asked.

[Fargo]

2 hours ago, wymberley said:

Casually following this thread, but can't find these detailed either by Eley or Just C'. Could you add a physical size for these?

They stopped making the 3’s I think and have stayed with 4 and 5

[wymberley]

25 minutes ago, Big Mat said:

They proof with a steel cartridge,  I asked.

Yep, 4.6mm.

23 minutes ago, Fargo said:

They stopped making the 3’s I think and have stayed with 4 and 5

That would explain it. 3s would have been HP territory. Thank you. 

[Old farrier]

4 minutes ago, Big Mat said:

They proof with a steel cartridge,  I asked.

well possibly things are changing from last august 

hopefully

 

They didn’t say that when I took my gun to them and asked how do you proof a 410 for steel cartridge when there are none available and could they show me the cartridge used for the testing 

along with a lot of other questions a very informative couple of days spent there obviously you have to pay for the full guided tour with the proof master but money well spent I my opinion 

 

[RCB56]

56 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

well possibly things are changing from last august 

hopefully

 

They didn’t say that when I took my gun to them and asked how do you proof a 410 for steel cartridge when there are none available and could they show me the cartridge used for the testing 

along with a lot of other questions a very informative couple of days spent there obviously you have to pay for the full guided tour with the proof master but money well spent I my opinion 

 

I believe when The Proof House tests a gun they only use power to generate a pressure and not fire a cartridge as it is a pressure that a shotgun is proofed to.

[London Best]

13 minutes ago, RCB56 said:

I believe when The Proof House tests a gun they only use power to generate a pressure and not fire a cartridge as it is a pressure that a shotgun is proofed to.

No, they definitely fire cartridges.

[Old farrier]

30 minutes ago, RCB56 said:

I believe when The Proof House tests a gun they only use power to generate a pressure and not fire a cartridge as it is a pressure that a shotgun is proofed to.

 👍

16 minutes ago, London Best said:

No, they definitely fire cartridges.

🤔

loaded with?

for superior steel proof 🤔

[London Best]

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

 👍

🤔

loaded with?

for superior steel proof 🤔

Dunno!

[Old farrier]

25 minutes ago, London Best said:

Dunno!

 

[RCB56]

Thank you  OF for clarifying my earlier post. I also looked it up before I posted but I thought I would let other people check it out to save further confusion.

[Old farrier]

3 minutes ago, RCB56 said:

Thank you  OF for clarifying my earlier post. I also looked it up before I posted but I thought I would let other people check it out to save further confusion.

My pleasure 

it doesn’t help with the actual issue of extra pressure generated at the choke area when you fire steel 

so my solution is aftermarket extended choke there by making them sacrificial 

[RCB56]

4 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

My pleasure 

 

so my solution is aftermarket extended choke there by making them sacrificial 

That a too easy solution to an over complicated alleged problem. 

[Sweet11-87]

12 hours ago, wymberley said:

Casually following this thread, but can't find these detailed either by Eley or Just C'. Could you add a physical size for these?

it would seem they only make em in a 4,5 now but i bought a fair few and they are stamped with a big 3 on em.

[8 shot]

Used Eley ECOWAD no.3s when they first came out, only really any good on Pheasant, Duck sized quarry at range, not much cop on Partridge, Pigeon and Crow sized target beyond 30ish yrds. Pattern to sparse smaller targets fly straight through

[wymberley]

11 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

it would seem they only make em in a 4,5 now but i bought a fair few and they are stamped with a big 3 on em.

Many thanks.

[Scully]

20 hours ago, Old farrier said:

My pleasure 

it doesn’t help with the actual issue of extra pressure generated at the choke area when you fire steel 

so my solution is aftermarket extended choke there by making them sacrificial 

I think a lot of folk will be going down the aftermarket route to be honest; there just isn't any need to scrap or sell at a great loss, or indeed submit for steel proofing. 
There are a great number of very desirable guns out there not proofed for steel, and they deserve to be used, and what’s more are perfectly capable. 

[rbrowning2]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

There are a great number of very desirable guns out there not proofed for steel, and they deserve to be used, and what’s more are perfectly capable. 

I’ll play devils advocate, the NRA have introduced a form that must be signed if you want to use home loads due to their insurance. Just may be if we see a total lead ban and all sorts of guns suddenly being used for steel which they were never designed or proofed for, the insurance underwriters insuring Clay grounds, BASC and CPSA etc will say if your gun is not steel proofed your insurance is invalid!!!  Then Clay grounds will ban non steel proofed guns.

 

[Old farrier]

2 hours ago, Scully said:

I think a lot of folk will be going down the aftermarket route to be honest; there just isn't any need to scrap or sell at a great loss, or indeed submit for steel proofing. 
There are a great number of very desirable guns out there not proofed for steel, and they deserve to be used, and what’s more are perfectly capable. 

It will make my purdey  look awful with extended chokes though but if that’s the way it’s going 🤷

41 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

I’ll play devils advocate, the NRA have introduced a form that must be signed if you want to use home loads due to their insurance. Just may be if we see a total lead ban and all sorts of guns suddenly being used for steel which they were never designed or proofed for, the insurance underwriters insuring Clay grounds, BASC and CPSA etc will say if your gun is not steel proofed your insurance is invalid!!!  Then Clay grounds will ban non steel proofed guns.

 

And probably retain the home loads ban at the same time 🤔

[Scully]

56 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

I’ll play devils advocate, the NRA have introduced a form that must be signed if you want to use home loads due to their insurance. Just may be if we see a total lead ban and all sorts of guns suddenly being used for steel which they were never designed or proofed for, the insurance underwriters insuring Clay grounds, BASC and CPSA etc will say if your gun is not steel proofed your insurance is invalid!!!  Then Clay grounds will ban non steel proofed guns.

 

And round and round we go! No guns are ‘designed’ specifically for steel shot; they’re all made the same, just proofed to a higher spec’. 
Wildfowlers have been using guns not proofed for steel for years, without the matter of insurance raising its head, but I would say BASC are best placed to answer that one.