Scully Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 1 hour ago, Konor said: To be honest I think the simple explanation is that Holloway has got me mixed up with another poster so no drama, it's hard to keep track on long threads such as this. No hard feelings we're all on the same side 👍 You’re far too nice for this forum! 😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jall25 Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 17 hours ago, Konor said: Of course jall25 my questions were was BASC prepared to negotiate for concessions for a the use of vintage guns such as Damascus barrelled guns and short chambered small bore shotguns b the use of lead over ground that would be shot minimally such as walked up shooting where comparatively little lead is deposited onto the environment in both cases the amount of lead deposited would be low and would minimise the risk to flora and fauna much like a concession was deemed possible for the use of air guns on quarry due to the minimal depositing of lead and was also used as an argument by Norwegian hunters to return to using lead. The above concessions would create a niche for those vintage guns enabling their continued use while also protecting what should be considered a valuable resource for future generations to enjoy and at the same time those concessions would result in minimal consequential damage to the environment. Those were my main concerns which were largely ignored and not addressed by the responses I received. Sounds like very simple honest open questions Thanks Konor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fil Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 On 19/01/2024 at 13:15, Rewulf said: BASC proposed it 'voluntary' phase out of lead shot for live quarry in 2020, as has been discussed, at length, without consultation , from its membership, and without any input from cartridge manufacturers. It continued to tout the 'toxicity' of lead, and the benefits of using steel shot...A lot. Then coincidently , a year later, the HSE announced it would be looking at banning lead for firearm projectiles across the board.. I asked Conor at the time, if BASC had any forewarning of this inquiry, after some pushing and shoving , he said no. So 'coincidently' a lead ban is on the cards for all shotgun use, yet BASC are now rigorously 'fighting the HSE lead ban proposals since 2021' ? I would ask , what went wrong, did you have an agreement with government, that they have reneged on ? Is it all smoke and mirrors ? No Conor, there are a LOT of people on here, and elsewhere who are not happy at all with BASCs stance and behaviour around this matter. Its contradictory, seemingly dishonest and evasive, to say the criticism of BASC is misinformative is clearly a deflection from your own stance. To say its personal, after you yourself have made various insults and personal attacks is laughable. People ask you straight forward questions which you evade, or 'refer to BASC press release' which does not answer the question, when pushed, you resort to the personal attacks. Ill give you this , you are persistent , maybe thick skinned, but your obvious anger shows through in some highly unprofessional ways at times, its not just here , you get the same if not worse on the SD. Why you dont just ignore the dissenters and preach just to the converted Im not sure. Maybe you like the conflict, but its one youre losing. Spot on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fil Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 3 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: "There are NONE so BLIND as those that CANNOT SEE". I really do despair, we who question are seen as the trouble makers and the small band of BASC Defenders repeatedly wish to close threads and silence open debate. I get that. And the arrogance of Conor is annoying to say the least. Just like a true BASC rep. I've had my say earlier in the post and that is that but I admire Konor's stand on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 8 minutes ago, Fil said: I get that. And the arrogance of Conor is annoying to say the least. Just like a true BASC rep. I've had my say earlier in the post and that is that but I admire Konor's stand on this. Yes, I admire his resilience and patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted January 20 Author Report Share Posted January 20 Given recent comments I thought it might be helpful to give a wider perspective from my work at BASC. I spend a lot of time communicating with BASC members and non-members on policy issues as the queries come in. There have been updates on the HSE lead restrictions proposals by email, social media and across the sporting press for several months; and since December further updates on BASC's response. I am the primary contact for all those comms. The feedback and discussions I have had across all those routes are overwhelmingly understanding and positive of BASC's efforts fighting lead ban proposals. People also understand that the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting continues to be encouraged by all the shooting organisations regardless of the outcome of the HSE lead ammunition review and the reasons why that is happening. As part of my interest in feedback on policy issues, and mostly in my spare time, I post on PW to gather feedback and encourage responses to consultations and I estimate that there are perhaps 20-30 PW members on here that make up for the majority of feedback on lead ammunition and around 100 PW members that responded to last year's HSE consultation. I estimate that there are around 10 people on here that make up for the majority of negative comments about BASC on every thread on lead ammunition. That is 10 amongst hundreds of thousands of people that are aware of the policy developments. Thus, those 10, whilst they are most entitled to their viewpoints, are in fact a relatively small number of people in the bigger scheme of things and claims by some that PW comments represent the majority view in the shooting community simply do not stack up from my perspective and indeed that of colleagues across BASC speaking day in day out with many more people than myself. I continue to post on PW and take on board views but the negative feedback towards BASC and me personally are a barrier to more constructive engagement - and yes I can do better also on that front reacting to the vitriol, but remember that I am human too. There has been some talk of transparency on policy developments and BASC has published its response to the HSE consultation for all to see here: https://basc.org.uk/basc-response-to-hse-lead-ammunition-consultation/ Are there any other organisational responses to the HSE consultation available to you to read and critique? If you are a member of BASC and have queries on its HSE response and/or the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting please email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk If you are a member of another organisation perhaps ask them for a copy of their HSE consultation response, start a new PW thread on that, and invite someone from their organisation to engage on PW for those discussions. BASC is not the only voice on these policy developments. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 8 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Thus, those 10, whilst they are most entitled to their viewpoints, are in fact a relatively small number of people in the bigger scheme of things and claims by some that PW comments represent the majority view in the shooting community simply do not stack up from my perspective and indeed that of colleagues across BASC speaking day in day out with many more people than myself. Just because only 10 actually post i think it unfair that you presume they are the only ones not in agreement with you, there are many that are simply just fed up and cannot be bothered to post because no ones mind will be changed. It's like brexit , the government thought they had it in the bag and the public were in agreement with them because they had done poll after poll and lots of focus groups, meanwhile the silent majority stick two fingers up to those in power who thought they had the voice of the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 this thread should be on pay per view lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted January 20 Author Report Share Posted January 20 (edited) 12 minutes ago, welsh1 said: Just because only 10 actually post i think it unfair that you presume they are the only ones not in agreement with you, there are many that are simply just fed up and cannot be bothered to post because no ones mind will be changed. It's like brexit , the government thought they had it in the bag and the public were in agreement with them because they had done poll after poll and lots of focus groups, meanwhile the silent majority stick two fingers up to those in power who thought they had the voice of the people. You may well be right and the BASC survey results will be interesting in that regard - and I have encouraged PW members to take part in this thread, albeit when I posted the BASC survey as a stand alone thread I think it was deleted by mods for some reason. Would you agree that only around 100 PW members replied to the HSE consultation? Or perhaps that is an underestimate of active users? Edited January 20 by Conor O'Gorman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 1 minute ago, Conor O'Gorman said: You may well be right and the BASC survey results will be interesting in that regard - and I have encouraged PW members to take part in this thread, albeit when I posted the BASC survey as a stand alone thread I think it was deleted by mods for some reason. Would you agree that only around 100 PW members replied to the HSE consultation? Or perhaps that is an underestimate of active users? I don't have a clue who or how many people responded to any consultation, why would i? Have you ever thought that some may have basc lethargy on here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jall25 Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 6 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: You may well be right and the BASC survey results will be interesting in that regard - and I have encouraged PW members to take part in this thread, albeit when I posted the BASC survey as a stand alone thread I think it was deleted by mods for some reason. Would you agree that only around 100 PW members replied to the HSE consultation? Or perhaps that is an underestimate of active users? Conor Why not just answer Konors questions about 5 posts above ? That would be a start and the questions seem polite - fair and answerable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted January 20 Author Report Share Posted January 20 12 minutes ago, welsh1 said: I don't have a clue who or how many people responded to any consultation, why would i? Have you ever thought that some may have basc lethargy on here? I don't know, perhaps because you stated that "Just because only 10 actually post i think it unfair that you presume they are the only ones not in agreement with you, there are many that are simply just fed up and cannot be bothered to post because no ones mind will be changed". So, in your equally long experience of PW how may more than the 10 do you think share the same views? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted January 20 Author Report Share Posted January 20 17 minutes ago, jall25 said: Conor Why not just answer Konors questions about 5 posts above ? That would be a start and the questions seem polite - fair and answerable I have answered the questions and many others many times across two threads, and offered phone calls when Konor was not satisfied with the answers. There is only so much one can do to reach out on a forum on such complex issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jall25 Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 2 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: I have answered the questions and many others many times across two threads, and offered phone calls when Konor was not satisfied with the answers. There is only so much one can do to reach out on a forum on such complex issues. I totally get that Conor But ..... Its only 5 posts above or so and its just 2 relatively simple questions isnt it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted January 20 Author Report Share Posted January 20 12 minutes ago, jall25 said: I totally get that Conor But ..... Its only 5 posts above or so and its just 2 relatively simple questions isnt it ? Thanks, I think the following is what was posted: Was BASC prepared to negotiate for concessions for a the use of vintage guns such as Damascus barrelled guns and short chambered small bore shotguns b the use of lead over ground that would be shot minimally such as walked up shooting where comparatively little lead is deposited onto the environment My answer to these questions and variations of these have been to refer Konor to read the BASC response to the consultation which covers it all, but unfortunately Konor seems unable or unwilling to take any of that on board, and continues to reject my offers of phone calls to help with queries and concerns. I have also explained to Konor in this thread that the 'concessions' are about greater time frames for smaller gauges of shotguns; and that it matters not to the birds what shotgun fired the lead shot that they ate and died from. However, all of my efforts seem to be in vain. But I will keep trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: I have answered the questions and many others many times across two threads, and offered phone calls when Konor was not satisfied with the answers. There is only so much one can do to reach out on a forum on such complex issues. You have not answered the questions referred to by jall25 and your referral to documents that you claimed answered the questions did not do so. Why don’t you answer them now ? Don’t you know the answers ? Edited January 20 by Konor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jall25 Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 2 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Thanks, I think the following is what was posted: Was BASC prepared to negotiate for concessions for a the use of vintage guns such as Damascus barrelled guns and short chambered small bore shotguns b the use of lead over ground that would be shot minimally such as walked up shooting where comparatively little lead is deposited onto the environment My answer to these questions and variations of these have been to refer Konor to read the BASC response to the consultation which covers it all, but unfortunately Konor seems unable or unwilling to take any of that on board, and continues to reject my offers of phone calls to help with queries and concerns. I have also explained to Konor in this thread that the 'concessions' are about greater time frames for smaller gauges of shotguns; and that it matters not to the birds what shotgun fired the lead shot that they ate and died from. However, all of my efforts seem to be in vain. But I will keep trying. I get that - i do But can you not see that by not just answering surely what are 2 easy questions people - Konor in particular - thinks you are being a bit funny about things ? If i knew the answer in your position - just answer it Conor - in plain speak and we can all see and move on ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8 shot Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 (edited) 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: . So, in your equally long experience of PW how may more than the 10 do you think share the same views? Over the season I've beat and shot on 8 maybe 9 different shoots, and when the Lead Ban topic comes up I would quite confidently say 95% blame the BASC for it and 100% of land, shoot owners and shooters think it's completely unnecessary and there is an agenda behind it. And most DO NOT subscribe to The BASC Edited January 20 by 8 shot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 29 minutes ago, 8 shot said: Over the season I've beat and shot on 8 maybe 9 different shoots, and when the Lead Ban topic comes up I would quite confidently say 95% blame the BASC for it and 100% of land, shoot owners and shooters think it's completely unnecessary and there is an agenda behind it. And most DO NOT subscribe to The BASC That mirrors my experience especially as a significant amount of people I shoot with do so with side by sides ,they are not on board with the need for a lead shot ban and consider it politically driven and poorly opposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: and that it matters not to the birds what shotgun fired the lead shot that they ate and died from I’m sorry Conor if you consider this post a personal attack but does anyone else consider this statement as slightly bizarre , hypocritical and dare I say insincere. It has been stated that the aim of the voluntary lead ban is to minimise not eradicate risk . Dare I say that in an industry which is responsible for the release of 35 to 48 million pheasants and 7 to 14 million partridges with the harvesting of probably 30% of those figures that the emotive content of the post quoted could be perceived as crocodile tears particularly by any anti field sports supporters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 (edited) 13 hours ago, Fil said: I get that. And the arrogance of Conor is annoying to say the least. Just like a true BASC rep. I've had my say earlier in the post and that is that but I admire Konor's stand on this. 13 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Yes, I admire his resilience and patience. 11 hours ago, jall25 said: I totally get that Conor But ..... Its only 5 posts above or so and its just 2 relatively simple questions isnt it ? Thank you for your support it’s much appreciated. My sole reason for posting is to highlight the fate of our vintage guns should there be no concessions allowing them to continue to be used with lead shot under limited circumstances. That Conor has chosen not to back the possibility of such concessions being lobbied for is both frustrating and disappointing but I assume his adherence to the wish for a voluntary ban would mean that the use of lead shot in such guns would be possible anyway. Fingers crossed then for a voluntary ban and the resulting ability to continue using lead shot in our old Damascus barrelled side by sides. Edited January 21 by Konor Addition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 (edited) 8 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said: that it matters not to the birds what shotgun fired the lead shot that they ate and died from. Is it not BASC's stance that Lead for clay shooting should continue? Edited January 21 by Newbie to this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 (edited) 2 hours ago, Newbie to this said: Is it not BASC's stance that Lead for clay shooting should continue? Exactly ,and why I wrote that the statement was hypocritical. It also gives me the feeling that BASC are only paying lip service to opposing further legislation to restrict the use of lead shot as it suggests that their position is that a considerable amount of birds die through the ingestion of lead shot away from wet land areas. Is there proof that this is the case ? Lead deposited over clay grounds. Ground shot over extensively. Ground shot over lightly. Ground not shot over but shot over in the past. Is their data to put into perspective the impact lead shot deposited on ground under the above varying circumstances has on flora and fauna and what degree of minimising risk is considered acceptable and achievable ? Edited January 21 by Konor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 11 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said: I don't know, perhaps because you stated that "Just because only 10 actually post i think it unfair that you presume they are the only ones not in agreement with you, there are many that are simply just fed up and cannot be bothered to post because no ones mind will be changed". So, in your equally long experience of PW how may more than the 10 do you think share the same views? A awful lot first they don’t post because the question has been asked second they maybe not as eloquent as the original poster nor be as patient Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 9 hours ago, 8 shot said: Over the season I've beat and shot on 8 maybe 9 different shoots, and when the Lead Ban topic comes up I would quite confidently say 95% blame the BASC for it and 100% of land, shoot owners and shooters think it's completely unnecessary and there is an agenda behind it. And most DO NOT subscribe to The BASC I’ve had a very similar response from the shoots that I have been on a few more than you and from Devon Dorset Yorkshire Lincolnshire and Cumbria on each day’s shooting we have asked if there are any cartridge restrictions the only restriction we have experienced are fibre wad please and don’t shoot wildfowl unless you have non toxic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts