BASC January 2024 podcast - voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting

[Old farrier]

8 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Don't knock it (or yourself). With shotguns science can only get you into the ballpark; empirical data will put you in the centre circle.

I’m not knocking it 

could you explain exactly what you are trying to say please 🤔

 

[Peter Harris]

I find this thread very ,very , worrying .

Steel when compared to Lead loaded cartridges are not cheap ! Steel is not as effective as Lead in Game shooting . The BASC Try Non-Toxic loads is not a fair test when comparing using clays , let us see how effective in a true comparison on Game days . Not enough is being done for small bores and quite frankly I think Conor is doing a very poor job fielding our concerns to the questions asked by BASC's members.

[Weihrauch17]

40 minutes ago, Peter Harris said:

I find this thread very ,very , worrying .

Steel when compared to Lead loaded cartridges are not cheap ! Steel is not as effective as Lead in Game shooting . The BASC Try Non-Toxic loads is not a fair test when comparing using clays , let us see how effective in a true comparison on Game days . Not enough is being done for small bores and quite frankly I think Conor is doing a very poor job fielding our concerns to the questions asked by BASC's members.

Nothing is being done for small bores, they are being thrown under the bus.

[Fil]

2 hours ago, Old farrier said:

To add to this more steel pellets to the cartridge more shot needed to kill the bird equals more unsaleable inedible birds 

this season I have loaded steel in one barrel lead in the other then trying to shoot left and right on similar height birds at ranges from normal to more extreme when I have been successful

iv sent the dogs have retrieved them both immediately and they were tied together for later inspection ok it’s not the most reliable scientific method but in each case the lead shot birds have been less damaged 

anyone tried similar?

Have you found rust in the meat to be an issue?

[Old farrier]

On 14/01/2024 at 17:04, Fil said:

Have you found rust in the meat to be an issue?

Not as yet but I have labels on the steel shot birds in the freezer 

not expecting to find much though as I haven’t experienced it with ducks yet but to be fair I haven’t looked 

[Bobba]

On 14/01/2024 at 15:26, Peter Harris said:

 frankly I think Conor is doing a very poor job fielding our concerns to the questions asked by BASC's members.

The man is evasive and his whole approach is to deflect guilt.

I doubt very much that he is a loose cannon within the BASC machine and his approach is therefore more than likely condoned by more senior folk there. Were it not for the fact that I am required to be a BASC member (my gun club and one of my permissions) then based on his performance on this forum I would have resigned my membership by now.

From the BASC website “We are the ones who are here for you…”  “Whatever you are facing we will stand with you…” “Together we are stronger…” clearly BSAC needs to practice what IT preaches.

[Fil]

16 minutes ago, Bobba said:

 Were it not for the fact that I am required to be a BASC member (my gun club and one of my permissions) then based on his performance on this forum I would have resigned my membership by now.

 

I cancelled my BASC membership years ago. The sudden Monday morning "lead is bad" statement was the last straw. I am a member of SACS for my shooting insurance and to support an organisation helping to fight for our cause. By no means an endorsement. I'm just saying BASC are not the holy grail they think they are. 

If your club and permission insist on BASC only then fair enough. 

[grahamch]

There's a lot of nonesense in steel shot threads my fowling pals have no problems with it nor do folk i know who use 20's with steel for woodies etc. 

Evolve or die I guess. 

The old farts have struck again on this thead!

 

[wymberley]

On 14/01/2024 at 14:55, Old farrier said:

I’m not knocking it 

could you explain exactly what you are trying to say please 🤔

 

Can understand your confusion. Rare thing on PW, but elsewhere commonly known as a compliment.

[holloway]

13 minutes ago, grahamch said:

There's a lot of nonesense in steel shot threads my fowling pals have no problems with it nor do folk i know who use 20's with steel for woodies etc. 

Evolve or die I guess. 

The old farts have struck again on this thead!

 

 Agreed ,they will be blaming Basc for this forum being down for a while as well 😀.

[wymberley]

41 minutes ago, grahamch said:

There's a lot of nonesense in steel shot threads my fowling pals have no problems with it nor do folk i know who use 20's with steel for woodies etc. 

Evolve or die I guess. 

The old farts have struck again on this thead!

 

Yes, but what is your opinion?

[Scully]

53 minutes ago, grahamch said:

There's a lot of nonesense in steel shot threads my fowling pals have no problems with it nor do folk i know who use 20's with steel for woodies etc. 

Evolve or die I guess. 

The old farts have struck again on this thead!

 

I quite agree; I’ve used steel on and off for years, since the lead ban for ‘fowl was introduced. 
The thing is though, is that there’s nothing wrong with lead either. And that’s where the deceit starts. 
BASC only started to point out the ( debatable ) alleged problems with lead in game meat ( previously deemed negligible and controllable ) when they realised they had better toe the government policy agenda line. Their very survival depends on it. 
They can claim to be against further restrictions until the cows come home, but they know as well as us that they are powerless to do anything about it. 
So from one old **** to another, which steel cartridges do you use? 

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, grahamch said:

There's a lot of nonesense in steel shot threads my fowling pals have no problems with it nor do folk i know who use 20's with steel for woodies etc. 

Evolve or die I guess. 

The old farts have struck again on this thead!

 

I shoot plenty of wildfowl with steel and other non lead cartridges mostly through heavy guns with long chambers or semi automatic and pump also with long chambers and rarely fire a dozen cartridges on a session

however I don’t think they have a good enough substitute for lead for the light English guns that are my preferred choice for game shooting 

[wymberley]

"If you go up at least one shot size [with steel] as you did before [with lead] you have the same kinetic energy and penetration as you would with a lead alternative."

So, when did this happen? The last I heard it was at least 2 shot sizes - not including the "bumped up" steel shot size amendment.

To avoid confusion, I know that steel shot works, but just that it doesn't as well as lead. Additionally, you don't always need the power of lead as enough is sufficient.

43 minutes ago, holloway said:

 Agreed ,they will be blaming Basc for this forum being down for a while as well 😀.

Do you know of any other 'authority' that shares the BASC opinion on the 'up one size' for steel over lead?

[HantsRob]

19 minutes ago, wymberley said:

So, when did this happen? The last I heard it was at least 2 shot sizes - not including the "bumped up" steel shot size amendment.

I think there may be a discrepancy between what CPSA and other have recommended in the past, vs what is a direct comparison. 

 

https://www.cpsa.co.uk/userfiles/files/CPSA_Booklet_7.pdf

 

Page 32, from 2011. "Steel shot size may be up to 2 sizes larger (3.1mm) than lead shot."

This doesn't, of course, mean that it is directly comparable; just that their rules give that lenience/variance. I also appreciate it doesn't answer you, it's just an opinion and thought.

 

I think we also need to factor in this bad boy:

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/guns/ammunition/moving-from-lead-shot-to-steel-what-you-need-to-know-112551/#:~:text=For clays%2C No 7 shot,with 170 pellets per oz.

 

No 7 shot in steel is 2.54mm with 422 pellets per oz, No 7 shot in lead is 2.4mm with 340 pellets per oz.

For game, No 4 shot in steel is 3.25mm with 192 pellets per oz, No 4 shot in lead is 3.1mm with 170 pellets per oz.

 

That's to say, it depends if someone is using a universal measurement, or whatever they are using above. I hadn't ever heard of that above and is news to me, and would also add to the confusion for anyone working off of standard measurements rather than the above.

Edited January 16 by HantsRob

[Konor]

1 hour ago, grahamch said:

There's a lot of nonesense in steel shot threads my fowling pals have no problems with it nor do folk i know who use 20's with steel for woodies etc. 

Evolve or die I guess. 

The old farts have struck again on this thead!

 

I doubt your fowling friends are using 2 1/2 chambered 12 bores though and decoying birds into range isn’t equivalent to walked up rough shooting.

“Evolve or die” seems like you’re really saying accept and don’t question. I don’t know if you’ve read through the whole thread but the thrust of much of the matter is the unhappiness with BASCs evasiveness and reluctance to answer direct questions.

You may be happy accepting BASCs contradictory stance on lead ammunition and its inability to defend the future of vintage and small bore shotguns but I’m aware of what we stand to lose and I am far from happy with the situation.
As to your refererence to Old farts , is this your blanket term for all old people as it’s quite disrespectful to the older shooters on the forum especially those who are astute enough to know when they are being poorly represented by their national shooting organisation.

A lot of older shooters have invested in decent British side by sides as their sporting gun/guns of choice over the long time they have been involved in the sport and face having to retire them.Their position is not equivalent to those who pursue their sport with the ubiquitous 3 inch chambered multi choked over and under. It would be great if while following your evolve or die ethos you could consider supporting those older shooters who have the most to lose.

Edited January 16 by Konor
Addition

[holloway]

4 minutes ago, Konor said:

I doubt your fowling friends are using 2 1/2 chambered 12 bores though and decoying birds into range isn’t equivalent to walked up rough shooting.

“Evolve or die” seems like you’re really saying accept and don’t question. I don’t know if you’ve read through the whole thread but the thrust of the matter is the unhappiness with BASCs evasiveness and reluctance to answer direct questions.

You may be happy accepting BASCs contradictory stance on lead ammunition and its inability to defend the future of vintage and small bore shotguns but I’m aware of what we stand to lose and I am far from happy with the situation.
As to your refererence to Old farts , is this your blanket term for all old people as it’s quite disrespectful to the older shooters on the forum especially those who are astute enough to know when they are being poorly represented by their national shooting organisation.

Decoying birds into range ????  what on earth are you talking about ? thats a very small part of wildfowling .

[Konor]

26 minutes ago, holloway said:

Decoying birds into range ????  what on earth are you talking about ? thats a very small part of wildfowling .

I was referring to the folk that Graham h referred to who were using steel in 20 bores to decoy wood pigeon perhaps if you had taken the time to read the posts fully you would have been aware of the context.
Having wildfowled on the Solway for 50 years and never decoyed I’m experienced enough to not need any guidance on the subject of basic wildfowling practice. 

[grahamch]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Yes, but what is your opinion?

Evolve and go with steel or other alternatives - not difficult

[Konor]

29 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Evolve and go with steel or other alternatives - not difficult

Could you perhaps expand on your contention that you are evolving instead of just rolling over. 
Any reply to my previous post or just conveniently ignoring it.

Edited January 16 by Konor
Addition

[HantsRob]

18 minutes ago, Konor said:

Could you perhaps expand on your contention that you are evolving instead of just rolling over. 
Any reply to my previous post or just conveniently ignoring it.

Konor, I like your posts and agree with most if not all. I at least agree with the sentiment.

I shoot with a fair few clay shooters, and I would say there is a subtle but actual difference between rolling over and what is by and large indifference or even just "evolving" with the law without resistance. I don't think someone not actively trying to prevent a lead ban means they are rolling over, and to many (with a modern steel proofed 3" OU) the change means very little to them. I appreciate many of those will be clay shooters, but I am sure many bird shooters just want to put metal shot in a tube and shoot it for fun.

We do not all share the same passions, my word we see the difference of clay vs game. Within my group I have friends that shoot twice a year if that, and others that shoot twice a week. I wouldn't say any are rolling over, more that they just accept their single voice doesn't count, and they do not wish to invest time in a fight when they have more important things on their personal agenda.

 

I do however agree about your comments about 'old farts' and find that it completely devalues his opinion when that is resorted to. I would hope that maybe you could do the same, as I don't think evolution vs rolling over is really a fair comment and devalues you also. Of course that is just my opinion. 

I very much enjoy your comments, I feel I sometimes live vicariously through your verbosity. Don't become a member of the  old farts club  (said tongue in cheek due to content for clarity)

Edited January 16 by HantsRob
you can say farts but not the singular. Interesting.

[Old farrier]

57 minutes ago, grahamch said:

Evolve and go with steel or other alternatives - not difficult

Not cheap either 🤔

[Konor]

2 hours ago, HantsRob said:

Konor, I like your posts and agree with most if not all. I at least agree with the sentiment.

I shoot with a fair few clay shooters, and I would say there is a subtle but actual difference between rolling over and what is by and large indifference or even just "evolving" with the law without resistance. I don't think someone not actively trying to prevent a lead ban means they are rolling over, and to many (with a modern steel proofed 3" OU) the change means very little to them. I appreciate many of those will be clay shooters, but I am sure many bird shooters just want to put metal shot in a tube and shoot it for fun.

We do not all share the same passions, my word we see the difference of clay vs game. Within my group I have friends that shoot twice a year if that, and others that shoot twice a week. I wouldn't say any are rolling over, more that they just accept their single voice doesn't count, and they do not wish to invest time in a fight when they have more important things on their personal agenda.

 

I do however agree about your comments about 'old farts' and find that it completely devalues his opinion when that is resorted to. I would hope that maybe you could do the same, as I don't think evolution vs rolling over is really a fair comment and devalues you also. Of course that is just my opinion. 

I very much enjoy your comments, I feel I sometimes live vicariously through your verbosity. Don't become a member of the  old farts club  (said tongue in cheek due to content for clarity)

HantsRob thanks for the comments. My reason for my previous post is that I think just stating evolve or die in response to a reluctance to accept that the lead ban is not politically driven belittles the changes that are on the horizon for all shooters. The consequences of legislative enforcement of a lead shot ban  I think will result in a restriction of opportunity to enjoy using a wider range of sporting shotguns.

Of course the reality of the matter is that a lot of shooters have wide ranging shooting interest and accompanying hardware. I once was a keen pistol shot prior to the handgun ban.I shoot deer and fox with .243 and .222. Rabbits crows and squirrels with .22lr. Clay pigeons with Miroku mk38 and mk60. Wildfowl with beretta xtrema ,an AYA number 3 magnum  and an older Cogswell and Harrison 3 inch magnum. I shoot driven birds with an Alex Martin and an Alex Dalgleish over and under and shoot walked up with an AYA 16 bore number 4, an old Frederick Williams Damascus barrelled 12 bore and a Parker reproduction again in 12 bore .I’ve invested a lot of time in my sport and value getting out greatly. I’ve added to my guns when funds permitted and failed to trade in for the smaller sums offered. A big change from the AYA cosmos I used for 7 years and my fathers only gun , an AYA yeoman.
All my actual shooting is done on a shoe string in common with many others,  membership of a wildfowling club ,small farmers syndicate and helping out on a farm lambing and decorating for the deer stalking. My main point in writing this is to illustrate that I am aware of the different sentiments and priorities of a few different branches of our sport and Im hoping that despite those differences that we stand up for each others sport and against any proposed restrictions that would see fellow shooters lose out.

 It is from this perspective that I choose to question BASC’s policies and inconsistency together with its political approach to what should be the protection of the best interests of all shooters. I make no apology for this and it has eaten in to my spare time over the last few weeks in doing so but I am reluctant to read the line we are being fed by BASC without questioning it.  
 The acceptance of the argument for example from anti field sports supporters that they are concerned about the presence of lead shot in game meat being sold in super markets  is preposterous beyond belief. I can’t quite imagine a hunt saboteur returning home to a hot pheasant roast. I’m not a supporter of any form of appeasement ,better to negotiate from a position of strength and bargain only when necessary when you have ensured that you have something to bargain with.I learned that lesson years ago when negotiating with RSPB and WWT when it came to defending  wildfowling interests on a proposed LNR.

 In conclusion I’ve no wish to argue with fellow shooters and would far rather find common ground but that presupposes that those shooters are up for defending every branch of the sport as divided we fall 👍

Edited January 16 by Konor
Addition

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

Could you perhaps expand on your contention that you are evolving instead of just rolling over. 
Any reply to my previous post or just conveniently ignoring it.

From past experience grahamch doesn’t converse much beyond the odd trollish remark. 
There’s a few on here who do similar. 

[Scully]

3 minutes ago, Konor said:

HantsRob thanks for the comments. My reason for my previous post is that I think just stating evolve or die in response to a reluctance to accept that the lead ban is not politically driven belittles the changes that are on the horizon for all shooters. The consequences of legislative enforcement of a lead shot ban  I think will result in a restriction of opportunity to enjoy using a wider range of sporting shotguns.

Of course the reality of the matter is that a lot of shooters have wide ranging shooting interest and accompanying hardware. I once was a keen pistol shot prior to the handgun ban.I shoot deer and fox with .243 and .222. Rabbits crows and squirrels with .22lr. Clay pigeons with Miroku mk38 and mk60. Wildfowl with beretta xtrema ,an AYA number 3 magnum  and an older Cogswell and Harrison 3 inch magnum. I shoot driven birds with an Alex Martin and an Alex Dalgleish over and under and shoot walked up with an AYA 16 bore number 4 and a Parker reproduction 12 bore I’ve invested a lot of time in my sport and value getting out greatly. I’ve added to my guns when funds permitted and failed to trade in for the smaller sums offered. A big change from the AYA cosmos I used for 7 years and my fathers only gun , an AYA yeoman.
All my actual shooting is done on a shoe string in common with many others,  membership of a wildfowling club ,small farmers syndicate and helping out on a farm lambing and decorating for the deer stalking. My main point in writing this is to illustrate that I am aware of the different sentiments and priorities of a few different branches of our sport and Im hoping that despite those differences that we stand up for each others sport and against any proposed restrictions that would see fellow shooters lose out.

 It is from this perspective that I choose to question BASC’s policies and inconsistency together with its political approach to what should be the protection of the best interests of all shooters. I make no apology for this and it has eaten in to my spare time over the last few weeks in doing so but I am reluctant to read the line we are being fed by BASC without questioning it.  
 The acceptance of the argument for example from anti field sports supporters that they are concerned about the presence of lead shot in game meat being sold in super markets  is preposterous beyond belief. I can’t quite imagine a hunt saboteur returning home to a hot pheasant roast. I’m not a supporter of any form of appeasement ,better to negotiate from a position of strength and bargain only when necessary when you have ensured that you have something to bargain with.I learned that lesson years ago when negotiating with RSPB and WWT when it came to defending  wildfowling interests on a proposed LNR.

 In conclusion I’ve no wish to argue with fellow shooters and would far rather find common ground but that presupposes that those shooters are up for defending every branch of the sport as divided we fall 👍

Good post. 👍

Well, except for the last paragraph. 😉

I am more than ready and willing to argue with all and sundry, including fellow shooters.
This is my way of life, my passion, matched by the monumental frustration I experience at the inability ( or a lack of will? ) of our shooting organisations ( I no longer consider any of them representatives ) and the lethargic indifference of the vast vast majority of so called shooters who can’t even be bothered to click on a link and fill in a questionnaire to put their point of view across. 
And if anyone thinks I only give faceless online shooters a hard time, you couldn’t be more wrong. It happens to mates and indeed our small syndicate members, and there are more than a few hypocrites on here I would gladly meet up with to point out the error of their ways. 🙂