BASC update on voluntary transition away from lead shot and and single-use plastics for live quarry

[Konor]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

It makes you wonder how these people have such conviction, then suddenly change their minds

Almost akin to politicians        but then is this whole issue not founded in politics rather than any sincere concern for partridge and pheasant chicks. Otherwise we would be spending our time creating the habitat for chicks to thrive ,turning our backs on releasing birds and enjoying casual low bag walked up days. There would be no worries about disposal of birds we would eat them all ourselves and as a consequence their comparative scarcity would see them achieve their true value on the market.I find it hard to fathom this seeming concern for the welfare of individual chicks from some  when commercial shooting will see hundreds of thousands of birds reared and shot ,birds that were obviously chicks earlier in the year ,and all this by the very shooting industry that BASC is keen to represent , protect and promote. The hard fact is that it is the need for excess that is the driver and while people are willing to pay large sums of money to shoot ever more birds in a day that need will be serviced and BASC will be there as the political wing of that industry. I wonder what Stanley Duncan would make of his WAGBI now ?

[jall25]

3 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

That's great that you tried to get grey partridge back onto your land. It sounds like you had everything in place just not enough breeding success - which is measured by chick survival rate. Everything that reduces that rate below a certain figure (namely rainfall levels at the wrong time and the right insects at the right density at the right time) means that the population goes extinct over time.  If you are still keen on trying again the GWCT and their local groups will be a great help. The key issue is the source of birds - they need to be ones that still have the ability in the wild not only to pick good nesting sites, but to lay eggs and hatch off the chicks, and to know what to do next - both parents help out here. Happy to have a chat on the phone about all this if of interest.

 

This would make a brilliant and interesting thread - and also something positive

I think - having spent hours watching that the main issue is foxes - and then a year of weather like we are having does the broods in 

[Konor]

31 minutes ago, Fellside said:

In the ideal world, no authority should proceed to impose lead shot restrictions in the absence of any good contemporary science - free from biased influence. 

I agree totally as the consequences are far reaching and single issue activists rarely look beyond their own political agenda to the repercussions of ill thought out restrictions. Where would the rural environment be without the input from shooting interests for example.

[Fellside]

21 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

 

Very good 👍

[Konor]

18 minutes ago, jall25 said:

 

This would make a brilliant and interesting thread - and also something positive

I think - having spent hours watching that the main issue is foxes - and then a year of weather like we are having does the broods in 

Insect hatches aren’t what they once were either. You used to have to clean the whole front of your car of insects in summers past . I can’t remember the last time I did that. It would be more satisfying if the shooting norm was work parties in the summer and fewer but wilder birds in the winter.sadly the shooting norm is more akin to trout fishery put and take than wild brown trout fishing.

Edited April 15 by Konor

[jall25]

4 minutes ago, Konor said:

Insect hatches aren’t what they once were either. You used to have to clean the whole front of your car of insects in summers past . I can’t remember the last time I did that.

 

Yes thats very true

Im planting vast amounts of wild covers / flower meadows and digging lots and lots of ponds - i have numbers just starting to come back and last year had millions of grasshoppers !

[Konor]

2 minutes ago, jall25 said:

 

Yes thats very true

Im planting vast amounts of wild covers / flower meadows and digging lots and lots of ponds - i have numbers just starting to come back and last year had millions of grasshoppers !

That must be very satisfying for you. Akin to catching a trout on a fly you’ve tied yourself.

[Old farrier]

6 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

That's great that you tried to get grey partridge back onto your land. It sounds like you had everything in place just not enough breeding success - which is measured by chick survival rate. Everything that reduces that rate below a certain figure (namely rainfall levels at the wrong time and the right insects at the right density at the right time) means that the population goes extinct over time.  If you are still keen on trying again the GWCT and their local groups will be a great help. The key issue is the source of birds - they need to be ones that still have the ability in the wild not only to pick good nesting sites, but to lay eggs and hatch off the chicks, and to know what to do next - both parents help out here. Happy to have a chat on the phone about all this if of 

 

would you be chatting as a private member of the forum ?

or 

as a member of the Basc team who avoided answering my questions earlier on this thread 
just saying 🙄

I disagree the weather was fine I had good results with the pheasant and red legs the problem was the raptors 

Im not inclined to put the time effort or money in as I’ll probably get some do Gooder telling me I can’t shoot them because there rare or I’m using the wrong gun cartridges wads or dog 

im well aware of the habitat required for their nesting and success in breeding and am grateful for the help received from members of the game conservancy council along with the time spent on the project along with the cooperation of the farmer and his staff and the kind landowners In Cambridge and Lincolnshire that spend their time giving me advice and support 

when i reared the first 200 it cost £80 a hundred in electricity to incubate the eggs brood them under lamps ready to go outside with a shelter with gas heaters add in the gas chick crumbs pellets ect and the cost spiral not counting the cost of the pens and release pens the whole thing is a expensive way to get a healthy population of peregrine falcons 

note I also reared many broods under bantams 

 

 

 

[Weihrauch17]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

That's great that you tried to get grey partridge back onto your land. It sounds like you had everything in place just not enough breeding success - which is measured by chick survival rate. Everything that reduces that rate below a certain figure (namely rainfall levels at the wrong time and the right insects at the right density at the right time) means that the population goes extinct over time.  If you are still keen on trying again the GWCT and their local groups will be a great help. The key issue is the source of birds - they need to be ones that still have the ability in the wild not only to pick good nesting sites, but to lay eggs and hatch off the chicks, and to know what to do next - both parents help out here. Happy to have a chat on the phone about all this if of interest.

Maybe he should of interviewed his breeding stock before employing them to weed out those who weren't up to the job? 

[Gordon R]

Old farrier, I am genuinely impressed with the work that you did and disappointed that it didn't yield better results.

Weihrauch17 - behave. 🙂 🙂 

 

Edited April 15 by Gordon R

[Weihrauch17]

8 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Old farrier, I am genuinely impressed with the work that you did and disappointed that it didn't yield better results.

Weihrauch17 - behave. 🙂 🙂 

 

Sorry I don't know how to tell the difference between a cunning Partridge and a stupid one!🤣

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, Konor said:

Almost akin to politicians        but then is this whole issue not founded in politics rather than any sincere concern for partridge and pheasant chicks. Otherwise we would be spending our time creating the habitat for chicks to thrive ,turning our backs on releasing birds and enjoying casual low bag walked up days. There would be no worries about disposal of birds we would eat them all ourselves and as a consequence their comparative scarcity would see them achieve their true value on the market.I find it hard to fathom this seeming concern for the welfare of individual chicks from some  when commercial shooting will see hundreds of thousands of birds reared and shot ,birds that were obviously chicks earlier in the year ,and all this by the very shooting industry that BASC is keen to represent , protect and promote. The hard fact is that it is the need for excess that is the driver and while people are willing to pay large sums of money to shoot ever more birds in a day that need will be serviced and BASC will be there as the political wing of that industry. I wonder what Stanley Duncan would make of his WAGBI now ?

Bang on 👍🏻

[Konor]

17 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I choose to post on this forum as I decide, I debate as I decide, and if I choose to leave for weeks or months on end or forever, that is my choice.

Alternatively your actions could be interpreted as being used by BASC to garner support  for their political aims while masquerading as just another fellow shooter on the forum then scuttling off when you are confronted to defend the agenda driven views that you introduce.

[Konor]

12 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Awesome 👏 

back to English partridge 

I quite like them as there are virtually none in my area 

I made enquiries regarding the possibility of reintroducing them to my area with positive responses 

dually sourced eggs and incubated and hatched 200 chicks

made pens and with landowners permission and encouragement we slowly released them into suitable areas around the 2000 acres of his farm appropriate covers suitable crops with high feed value and supplementary feeding stations we also drilled the corn with a wider setting on the rows and straight line planting no zig zags 

I mowed the south facing slopes of the grass down land ten meter wide strips every ten metres across it ( contour mowing) to leave long grass for nesting and cover for any birds short grass for chicks if any 

I installed a massive amount of tunnel traps to keep rats and other predators at bay along with strong fox control measures 

we did this for 3 years total reared and released 600 

none were shot in this period of time 

most-fell to predators the biggest culprit was the peregrine falcon as the English partridge is a little smaller than the red leg that’s to heavy for the peregrine to take 

five years on there’s probably five left 

pretty sure none died from ingesting lead shot 

 

I take my hat off to you Old farrier for the work put in and the money invested. It’s a shame there are not grants that would match your spending to make such work more viable,it could transform areas of the countryside and perhaps even decrease the friction with some of the less fanatic anti fieldsports enthusiasts.👍
Perhaps this would be an opportunity for BASC /GWCT to kickstart a drive for grant aid by funding some grass roots projects and provide guidance where needed to maximise successful outcomes. As an example of what can be achieved albeit in a different field check out the success of the work on the River Cree and its salmon hatchery. Work driven by the ideals and financial support of local people. Rather than study the decline of salmon to its death they decided to do something about it by building a hatchery and as a result they are the one of the few rivers in Scotland where it is legally possible to take a salmon for the table. The catch and release rate however must hover around 95% ( I’ve no figures to hand). This work isn’t driven by commercial interests but by those who have the best interests of the salmon and its habitat at heart and demonstrates what can be achieved.

Edited April 16 by Konor

[Old farrier]

16 minutes ago, Konor said:

I take my hat off to you Old farrier for the work put in and the money invested. It’s a shame there are not grants that would match your spending to make such work more viable,it could transform areas of the countryside and perhaps even decrease the friction with some of the less fanatic anti fieldsports enthusiasts.👍

Thank you 😊 

It won’t happen again farming practice has changed in my are 

every bit of spare ground is growing for a bio plant to make gas in excess of two thousand acres all harvested before it’s ripe 

the gas produced co2 is used in fizzy drinks 🤔

 

 

[Old farrier]

9 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Sorry I don't know how to tell the difference between a cunning Partridge and a stupid one!🤣

Neither do I 

problem was the eggs came before the partridge before the interview 😂😂

[Fellside]

38 minutes ago, Konor said:

I take my hat off to you Old farrier for the work put in and the money invested. It’s a shame there are not grants that would match your spending to make such work more viable,it could transform areas of the countryside and perhaps even decrease the friction with some of the less fanatic anti fieldsports enthusiasts.👍

Now there’s an idea. The grant should be embraced as part of the new agri-environmental movement, managed and administered by DEFRA. The ‘Grey Partridge Scheme’. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

10 hours ago, Old farrier said:

would you be chatting as a private member of the forum ?

or 

as a member of the Basc team who avoided answering my questions earlier on this thread 
just saying 🙄

It can be a bit of both. Happy to cover any questions you have on the voluntary transition and interested to learn more about your grey partridge project. If you are up for that some evening this week or at the weekend please PM me.

[Konor]

52 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Now there’s an idea. The grant should be embraced as part of the new agri-environmental movement, managed and administered by DEFRA. The ‘Grey Partridge Scheme’. 

I was naively considering grass roots encouragement for smaller shoots to move away from 500 bird put and take syndicates to smaller scale but more satisfying sporting pursuits where practical rather than larger scale estate projects.

[Penelope]

On 14/04/2024 at 15:41, Konor said:

How many wildfowlers still use their 1 1/2 oz 3inch chambered guns on the foreshore for geese ? I don’t ,it now gets used inland on game occasionally or a shot at the clays.

In a few years someone will be asking how many folk take their 1 1/8oz 2 1/2 inch guns out in the field and there will probably be a similar number doing so as the amount of 3inch 1 1/2 oz guns being used on the shore for geese now.

I’m sure a lot of people won’t be bothered ,they’ll be quite content with their ubiquitous 3 inch chambered over and unders but it will be a great loss to our sport and the truth of the matter may well be that the changes that occurred to bring about the loss of our vintage guns in the field will have had an insignificant positive effect on the environment. 

I have one of each and use both, the 3" 1 1/2oz, with steel.

[Konor]

8 minutes ago, Penelope said:

I have one of each and use both, the 3" 1 1/2oz, with steel.

I may be joining you and also investing in bismuth, bio ammo or some non steel load for my Damascus barrelled gun if the oft quoted continuation of the voluntary move away from lead fails to materialise.👍

Edited April 16 by Konor
Addition

[Fellside]

28 minutes ago, Konor said:

I was naively considering grass roots encouragement for smaller shoots to move away from 500 bird put and take syndicates to smaller scale but more satisfying sporting pursuits where practical rather than larger scale estate projects.

Yes a good thought. However I still think small farm syndicates (circa 500 poults) are hugely important for biodiversity. We do need those as well. Often they form a wildlife oasis surrounded by an intensively farmed ‘green desert’. Personally, I really enjoy smaller days, where there is the pressure (and thrill) of making the shot count, because there isn’t a constant stream of pheasants. I don’t want to knock the big shoots, as they are an important part of our rural economy, but scaling down a little might be an idea. Reducing live quarry to the status of many targets - rather like clays - seems somehow unattractive. Ramble over. 

[Konor]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

Yes a good thought. However I still think small farm syndicates (circa 500 poults) are hugely important for biodiversity. We do need those as well. Often they form a wildlife oasis surrounded by an intensively farmed ‘green desert’. Personally, I really enjoy smaller days, where there is the pressure (and thrill) of making the shot count, because there isn’t a constant stream of pheasants. I don’t want to knock the big shoots, as they are an important part of our rural economy, but scaling down a little might be an idea. Reducing live quarry to the status of many targets - rather like clays - seems somehow unattractive. Ramble over. 

Agree 100%.
A patchwork of shoots of various sizes would be a worthy aim with well maintained ground that would support a sustainable diverse bag. My ideal ,controversial I know,would be all smaller shoots for game leaving the  larger commercial shoots to focus on simulated game days where competitive shooters can have targets laid on to satisfy their needs. They would also be free to enjoy smaller game days resulting in minimal impact on the environment. It seems a far better prospect than the potential demise of game shooting.

[PeterHenry]

1 hour ago, Konor said:

My ideal ,controversial I know,would be all smaller shoots for game leaving the  larger commercial shoots to focus on simulated game days where competitive shooters can have targets laid on to satisfy their needs. They would also be free to enjoy smaller game days resulting in minimal impact on the environment. It seems a far better prospect than the potential demise of game shooting.

Controversial?

How on earth would you go about it?

It sounds awfully similar to something the Welsh Government is trying to achieve at the moment.

You can't go off on one at John Swift, et al. for damaging shooting and then - as I read it - state in an ideal world you would stop shoots over a certain size.

Pot calling kettle black springs to mind...

I would take steel shot over your sugestion any day of the week - and that's coming from somone who has no intrest in big bags whatsoever.

Edited April 16 by PeterHenry

[London Best]

Define a ‘big bag’.

Is it just one which is twice the bag you normally shoot?