First shotgun! 3-4 yrs experience, do I take my friends Citori, or buy something else?

[enfieldspares]

6 hours ago, decoyman said:

Miroku 800 skeet gun 26 iinch barrel does EVERYTHING.

It will likely also result, at a refereed English Sporting, in the referee on you stand politely asking you to bring something else next time. The muzzle blast from a 26" barrel gun is not nice if you are stood close by as a referee must on some stands. The OP is wanting a gun for general sporting clays. If guns with 26" barrels were ideal than everybody would use them and the AA and A Class shooters most evidently so. A CPSA 100 Bird registered shoots is held a mile down the road from me. On Sunday. Every fortnight. I have never seen a AA and A or indeed a B Class shooter use a 26" barrel gun. That must tell the OP something. It may have merit for game shooting. For what he asks which is general sporting clay and occasional Skeet you are encouraging him, as he is a novice, to waste his money. And given that the future is uncertain I'd also not be advising a gun that is likely to be at least bored with forcing cones and barrel boring more adaptable to steel shot cartridges. Not necessarily steel proof but at least with more suitable forcing cones.

Edited April 13 by enfieldspares

[Wilts#Dave]

Go to a good local dealer and handle some guns in your price bracket, what fits one won’t fit another etc etc…..you’ll get recommendations mostly based on what people own themselves and get o with but might not suit you! 
Personally don’t think you can go wrong with any of the entry level miroku/browning or beretta’s, will last a lifetime and still worth a few quid if you decide to move on. 
I went in to buy a new Browning B525 many years ago and left with a new Beretta 682Golde…..they laid out a selection of guns and then offered me the Beretta just to see what I thought which fitted like a glove and handled beautifully over the Brownings for me personally, fell in love with it even though it was a lot more money at the time. Still use it today mostly on pigeons now and been bulletproof, great gun that’s never missed a beat! 

[London Best]

It is no use a beginner (or even most more experienced shooters) going in to a shop and handling guns to see what fits them. 
Go to a shooting school (that’s a shooting school, not the local clay shooting club) and have a fitting with a gun fitter who does it every day for a living. 
It will be the best money you will ever spend on shooting.

[Genghis]

I'm not as experienced as most of those who has posted thus far, but the advice that I received when I started shooting was to spend little on your first gun and just purchase something that feels right for you at the time. Then when your mount and shooting style becomes more consistent that's the time to get a proper gun fit and then put your hands in your wallet to buy something more long-term.

 

If your mate is willing to sell you his Citori then I'm assuming that he'll give you a good price. Since you already know that you get on with it then it sounds like a good idea to me.

[Sweet11-87]

mate if youve just put in for your ticket youve got a year to wait. and loads of guns will take your eye between now and then. and if youre like anyone i know as soon as get your section 2  you dont but THE gun youll find youll probably buy about 5.  and the one you shoot best with will naturally become the go too.  in the first 5 years of having my ticket i must have bought and sold 25 shotguns. and ive held onto the ones i really enjoyed.  thats the beauty of section 2 if youve got the money youve got the gun easy as that

 

[decoyman]

16 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

It will likely also result, at a refereed English Sporting, in the referee on you stand politely asking you to bring something else next time. The muzzle blast from a 26" barrel gun is not nice if you are stood close by as a referee must on some stands. The OP is wanting a gun for general sporting clays. If guns with 26" barrels were ideal than everybody would use them and the AA and A Class shooters most evidently so. A CPSA 100 Bird registered shoots is held a mile down the road from me. On Sunday. Every fortnight. I have never seen a AA and A or indeed a B Class shooter use a 26" barrel gun. That must tell the OP something. It may have merit for game shooting. For what he asks which is general sporting clay and occasional Skeet you are encouraging him, as he is a novice, to waste his money. And given that the future is uncertain I'd also not be advising a gun that is likely to be at least bored with forcing cones and barrel boring more adaptable to steel shot cartridges. Not necessarily steel proof but at least with more suitable forcing cones.

Blimey, I was only offering an opinion, not encouraging anything.

i must come and try some of these refereed stands with my 25 inch skb sxs  for some fun then.  I dislike long barrels but then I rarely shoot clays except at the small venues I host myself.

Steve.

[Genghis]

31 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

mate if youve just put in for your ticket youve got a year to wait. and loads of guns will take your eye between now and then. and if youre like anyone i know as soon as get your section 2  you dont but THE gun youll find youll probably buy about 5.  and the one you shoot best with will naturally become the go too.  in the first 5 years of having my ticket i must have bought and sold 25 shotguns. and ive held onto the ones i really enjoyed.  thats the beauty of section 2 if youve got the money youve got the gun easy as that

 

Cambridgeshire are taking a year for new grants?

 

Cheshire are currently 3-4 months.

[Sweet11-87]

21 minutes ago, Genghis said:

Cambridgeshire are taking a year for new grants?

 

Cheshire are currently 3-4 months.

quick search in this forum archive alone found someone feb just gone asking for advice.

hed applied in september and as of feb hed heard nothing. one of the commenters said 18 months. i think cheshire are very much the exception to the rule atm the whole country is on a very long and frankly unacceptable turn around time but what can you do? you get funny about it theyll just revoke you.

 

Edited April 14 by Sweet11-87

[BeardyDude]

I've still been keeping up and reading, thanks everyone! 

Over the weekend I did spend a quite a while - ok, a very long while - everyone seems pretty friendly in this hobby  -  in a couple of local gun shops and tried a LOT out for fit and feel - I found it useful, even if heading to school might be the better choice! @Wilts#Dave, @London Best

I also today shot another 100 through a mix of the Citori, the bargain Winchester (yes, @Dave at kelton, @holloway,  it's a 101, and it was peanuts! - though can't find many like it on the wider web at the moment), and my friends Beretta 692, and yes, the longer barrels do indeed have an impact on sound!

@Gunman, I'm about 6ft, overweight, but fairly large frame too and quite healthy for it, and shooting casually around 50-100 every 6-7 weeks at the moment, 3-4 weeks in future.  Like I said, the Citori's weight isn't actually a problem - maybe like @Fellsidesaid it's that fairly dull, "fence post" feel that makes it seem even more heavy, and a lack of balance - rather than the length of the barrels - counting against it, than just the weight of it.

For reference, on one set of scales, and not particularly well measured (but measured badly in the same way each time!)...

30" 1984 browning citori, belgian made - 8.3 lb 
26" winchester 101 xtr lightweight, japan made - 7.4 lb
30" ~2015 beretta 692 - 7.4 lb

Oddly the 4" longer beretta was indeed the same as the "lightweight" winchester! If anything it was a little less!

From handling a lot of guns in the last 2 days, and improving my stance a little with some more input, I'm now 'leaning in' to the gun more properly - I seem to be quite lucky - most of the mainstream geometry seems to fit me fairly well! Older Lanber and Baikal were pretty good on the cheap side, Miroku and older beretta seemed to vary, some good, but quite a few were too low at the stock - but the more modern browning b525, miroku mk38, beretta SP, 682 gold E and ATA's all seem to fit quite right! The citori I think is actually a little low, like @Konor said - maybe why my friend went for it! - as is his new 692, though less noticeably so after a tightening up of my stance.

Both stores were very enthusiastic around ATA shotguns - and they certainly seemed nice! - good feel, good fit, and the ground I was at today has them as club guns, so also handled ~200k and ~500k well used examples - they seem to hold up very well! Nice crisp action that actually made the newer beretta's seem a bit spongy in comparison (am I imagining it, or did beretta get a lot worse in that regard?), but if anyone has any horror stories or other shade to cast, I'd be interested! When a brand new ATA with 5 year warranty is £699, spending ~£600 on a 40 year old unusual browning seems less attractive!

Talking of which, @Genghis , neither of us still really know what a good price for the Citori is! He bought it when the market was pretty weird just after Covid lockdowns were lifting (and mostly because he couldn't find a 525 or a silver pigeon for a decent price at the time!). Nobody got any idea?

I heard somewhere between 5-9 months in Cambridgeshire at the moment from the stores today and yesterday, but yes, it does seem the 12 weeks quoted on their website is overly optimistic! My friend has promised to finally sell his four spare old SxS (semi accidental auction wins!) and free up space in his cabinet sooner though Coming soon to the "for sale" section here I'd guess!

Incidentally, on the 101 - if anyone has a couple of old invector/mossberg/winchoke in 1/4 and a 1/2 gathering dust in a drawer, I think I know a buyer!

The one thing I'm sure on though, like @Sweet11-87 said, and my friend has discovered - I am definitely buying a very big cabinet!

[Dave at kelton]

10 minutes ago, BeardyDude said:

I've still been keeping up and reading, thanks everyone! 

Over the weekend I did spend a quite a while - ok, a very long while - everyone seems pretty friendly in this hobby  -  in a couple of local gun shops and tried a LOT out for fit and feel - I found it useful, even if heading to school might be the better choice! @Wilts#Dave, @London Best

I also today shot another 100 through a mix of the Citori, the bargain Winchester (yes, @Dave at kelton, @holloway,  it's a 101, and it was peanuts! - though can't find many like it on the wider web at the moment), and my friends Beretta 692, and yes, the longer barrels do indeed have an impact on sound!

@Gunman, I'm about 6ft, overweight, but fairly large frame too and quite healthy for it, and shooting casually around 50-100 every 6-7 weeks at the moment, 3-4 weeks in future.  Like I said, the Citori's weight isn't actually a problem - maybe like @Fellsidesaid it's that fairly dull, "fence post" feel that makes it seem even more heavy, and a lack of balance - rather than the length of the barrels - counting against it, than just the weight of it.

For reference, on one set of scales, and not particularly well measured (but measured badly in the same way each time!)...

30" 1984 browning citori, belgian made - 8.3 lb 
26" winchester 101 xtr lightweight, japan made - 7.4 lb
30" ~2015 beretta 692 - 7.4 lb

Oddly the 4" longer beretta was indeed the same as the "lightweight" winchester! If anything it was a little less!

From handling a lot of guns in the last 2 days, and improving my stance a little with some more input, I'm now 'leaning in' to the gun more properly - I seem to be quite lucky - most of the mainstream geometry seems to fit me fairly well! Older Lanber and Baikal were pretty good on the cheap side, Miroku and older beretta seemed to vary, some good, but quite a few were too low at the stock - but the more modern browning b525, miroku mk38, beretta SP, 682 gold E and ATA's all seem to fit quite right! The citori I think is actually a little low, like @Konor said - maybe why my friend went for it! - as is his new 692, though less noticeably so after a tightening up of my stance.

Both stores were very enthusiastic around ATA shotguns - and they certainly seemed nice! - good feel, good fit, and the ground I was at today has them as club guns, so also handled ~200k and ~500k well used examples - they seem to hold up very well! Nice crisp action that actually made the newer beretta's seem a bit spongy in comparison (am I imagining it, or did beretta get a lot worse in that regard?), but if anyone has any horror stories or other shade to cast, I'd be interested! When a brand new ATA with 5 year warranty is £699, spending ~£600 on a 40 year old unusual browning seems less attractive!

Talking of which, @Genghis , neither of us still really know what a good price for the Citori is! He bought it when the market was pretty weird just after Covid lockdowns were lifting (and mostly because he couldn't find a 525 or a silver pigeon for a decent price at the time!). Nobody got any idea?

I heard somewhere between 5-9 months in Cambridgeshire at the moment from the stores today and yesterday, but yes, it does seem the 12 weeks quoted on their website is overly optimistic! My friend has promised to finally sell his four spare old SxS (semi accidental auction wins!) and free up space in his cabinet sooner though Coming soon to the "for sale" section here I'd guess!

Incidentally, on the 101 - if anyone has a couple of old invector/mossberg/winchoke in 1/4 and a 1/2 gathering dust in a drawer, I think I know a buyer!

The one thing I'm sure on though, like @Sweet11-87 said, and my friend has discovered - I am definitely buying a very big cabinet!

If I lived wher you do I would get myself over to Elderkin in Spaulding. You won’t get a better gunshop and great range of OU. Look at this as it is a 101 by any other name.

https://www.elderkinguns.co.uk/product/parker-hale-over-and-under/

 

Edited April 14 by Dave at kelton

[Westley]

Gun shops will always push the new gun over a used model. It's all about 'mark up'  ! 

The new gun with its warranty, (which you may well need) is likely to lose a lot more money, than a good make used gun will.

Edited April 14 by Westley

[BeardyDude]

19 hours ago, Dave at kelton said:

If I lived wher you do I would get myself over to Elderkin in Spaulding. You won’t get a better gunshop and great range of OU. Look at this as it is a 101 by any other name.

https://www.elderkinguns.co.uk/product/parker-hale-over-and-under/

 

I'll make a detour next time I'm out that way!

 

19 hours ago, Westley said:

Gun shops will always push the new gun over a used model. It's all about 'mark up'  ! 

The new gun with its warranty, (which you may well need) is likely to lose a lot more money, than a good make used gun will.

Oh I dunno - having been a dealer in various things new and used, maybe not margin - there's big gaps between PX value (- discount they would have given anyway!) and the shelf price - but it's definitely easier to re-stock a new one! You can't sell what you ain't got  

I was going to say I found it odd they weren't trying to upsell me on a beretta or browning, but just checked the price - ouch! 17-1800 for a new 525 or pigeon, that's one hell of an upsell! Could have sworn they were ~ 1400 only 3 odd years ago when my friend was shopping first time round!

[Westley]

Prices have increased, BUT, I still believe that a used Japanese or Italian gun, is a better buy than some of the cheaper makes. The bottom line is, whatever makes YOU happy, is the right one. Having confidence in the gun is well on the way to shooting enjoyment. 

[London Best]

1 hour ago, BeardyDude said:

I was going to say I found it odd they weren't trying to upsell me on a beretta or browning, but just checked the price - ouch! 17-1800 for a new 525 or pigeon, that's one hell of an upsell! Could have sworn they were ~ 1400 only 3 odd years ago when my friend was shopping first time round!

You need to realise that these are only the entry level guns from these makers, built to a price so that they can carry a prestigious name. The better  guns from these firms cost many tens of thousands of pounds each!

[Sweet11-87]

On 15/04/2024 at 16:22, London Best said:

You need to realise that these are only the entry level guns from these makers, built to a price so that they can carry a prestigious name. The better  guns from these firms cost many tens of thousands of pounds each!

thats misleading a 680 action is a 680 action. all youre paying for is cosmetic bar some hand finishing and polishing that gives it no better feel to a well broken in gun.  yes the EELL is a very attractive gun but its still just  a silver pig tarted up. no greater example of diminishing returns than in the gun world with grades of the same model.

each to their own but the 686 onyx  in  matt black is the most eye catching one in the line and its probably the most basic they ever made bar the essential.

 

 

[London Best]

38 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

thats misleading a 680 action is a 680 action. all youre paying for is cosmetic bar some hand finishing and polishing that gives it no better feel to a well broken in gun.  yes the EELL is a very attractive gun but its still just  a silver pig tarted up. no greater example of diminishing returns than in the gun world with grades of the same model.

each to their own but the 686 onyx  in  matt black is the most eye catching one in the line and its probably the most basic they ever made bar the essential.

 

 

I wasn’t thinking of the EELL models, which as you say are just better finished silver pigeons. And very nice they are too. 
I was thinking of the expensive guns produced by the same company, some of which in the SO range sell for some £70,000 plus I believe.