ShootHub Podcast - lead shot latest with BASC's Terry Behan

[mellors]

11 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I trust the GWCT advice on the impact of lead shot fired from shotguns on birds. I personally support the voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. I have no lead shot cartridges left and I will never use lead shotgun cartridges again for live quarry shooting. How about you?

Why will there be a lead ban 'thanks to BASC'?

I am a member of GWCT and you say it's there advice but there's no evidence.

Yes i use steel for pigeons i used to use lead but with BASCs support and constant publicity saying lead is bad nobody wants lead shot pigeons. 

Your support for a lead ban is your choice but we were never given the the choice by the organisation we pay to support us. 

Only time will tell if BASC will survive many of us support wildfowling clubs of which compulsory BASC membership is required  and this lastest decision could have a devastating effect on them along with the withdrawn insurance membership numbers have dropped considerably the last few years. 

As to why will there be a lead ban BASC support it. 

 

[Gordon R]

Some time has passed since my summary of the podcast. I don't see any disagreement with the opinion I have posted, so I have to assume that BASC accept it as accurate.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

11 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

conor what is the percentage of cartridge sales suitable for live quarry shooting over the last five years? not too hard to find out by asking the importers and u.k. manufacturers is it?

This by email which was received this week by a local dealer was passed on to me today after visiting the shop today to buy some powder.

Share your experience to help us improve!

European regulations, aimed at regulating the use of lead for pellet ammunition, have stimulated the search for innovative alternatives to lead. Tungsten, copper, bismuth, and steel are currently the materials most commonly used for the production of lead-free cartridges.   We ask you to fill out this short survey to help us understand what your needs are.

ANSWER THE SURVEY

Your experience will surely help us understand which information is important to you.   All you need is your smartphone, follow the instructions, and no more than five minutes.   Thank you for your attention and cooperation!   Baschieri & Pellagri Team

Thanks for the survey link - I will pass it onto colleagues.

Here is a table with estimates from BASC's response to last year's HSE consultation

For full context here is the response document:

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/BASC-review-of-HSE-Annex-15-opinion.pdf

21 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Some time has passed since my summary of the podcast. I don't see any disagreement with the opinion I have posted, so I have to assume that BASC accept it as accurate.

 

You are entitled to your opinion - I don't wish to argue with you about your opinion. I think its a fantastic listen. You don't. No worries. Each to their own.

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, mellors said:

I am a member of GWCT and you say it's there advice but there's no evidence.

Yes i use steel for pigeons i used to use lead but with BASCs support and constant publicity saying lead is bad nobody wants lead shot pigeons. 

Your support for a lead ban is your choice but we were never given the the choice by the organisation we pay to support us. 

Only time will tell if BASC will survive many of us support wildfowling clubs of which compulsory BASC membership is required  and this lastest decision could have a devastating effect on them along with the withdrawn insurance membership numbers have dropped considerably the last few years. 

As to why will there be a lead ban BASC support it. 

 

To answer your question, BASC, CA, NGO, GWCT etc are all encouraging a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. This is namely because of the evidence on impact on birds eating lead shot as grit - and that evidence is conclusive. For starters see GWCT info below.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/advisory/lead-ammunition/

BASC does not support a lead ban.

[Conor O'Gorman]

12 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

I have seen a proposal that pellets are made exempt (whoopee thanks for that), why would that be if they are so poisonous.  No I don't know what will happen because nothing has been put into law, but I would hazard a 99% guess facilitated by BASC and the other Org's.  I haven't made any outlandish statements just fact.  Why do you keep lying about not including expanding lead rifle ammunition in your voluntary 'transition' that virtually nobody is volunteering for.   You couldn't make this train crash up in your wildest dreams. 

I think airgunners will be happy about the result achieved on lead airgun pellets. And rifle users will be happy with the result for lead rifle ammunition - could continue on approved ranges and lead rifle ammo for live quarry being reviewed again (was going to be a proposed ban). I haven't posted anything about expanding lead rifle ammunition. The link you gave for a summary of the BASC 2022 HSE response is in relation to proposals at that time.  Things have moved on and now we have the 2023 HSE consultation and BASC response.

In relation to the 2023 HSE proposals here is BASC's position - as sent to HSE:

• BASC is opposed to any further regulation on the use of lead ammunition in the UK.
• Regulations are already in place to mitigate risks to wildfowl from the use of lead shot in wetlands.
• There is clear evidence that lead shot poses a risk to a wide range of bird species in terrestrial habitats and a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting with shotguns is reducing these risks.
• The shooting sector must be allowed time to develop non-lead shotgun ammunition due to a world shortage of components and the need for manufacturers and assemblers to source new machinery to produce lead shot alternatives and biodegradable wads for all shotgun calibers.
• Lead in game meat is potentially a risk to human health via secondary exposure and government guidance and market forces are managing risks via best practice.
• Lead exposure pathways are not conclusive for livestock, soil, soil organisms, plants, and surface waters; and current legal and regulatory frameworks are in place to manage risks.

https://basc.org.uk/basc-response-to-hse-lead-ammunition-consultation/

 

13 hours ago, 8 shot said:

Has any these Organisations looked at how much land in GB is actually shot over. I believe i've read somewhere 75% or there about is farmland and woodland so would it be safe to say at best 30% would actually have lead on it, and most arable land would be moved every year for drilling hence buried or mixed into the top 6", woodland it would be buried under the foliage in the fall. So in my opinion a very small risk

Shooting is involved in the management of two-thirds of the rural land area.

http://www.shootingfacts.co.uk/

 

12 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Are you stating for the record , that you never said this ?

Yes. I will have given a detailed response and referred to BASC website.

[Conor O'Gorman]

12 hours ago, 8 shot said:

So what is it ? We have huge amounts of Red Kites and Buzzards, last shooting season at least 30 Greys and last January 200 plus Lapwings and we shoot 4/5 days with a bag of 10 to 30 of various, we farm I suppose intensively but we have signed up to no insecticides for the next 3 years. We control  Foxes Carrion Crow and Magpies 20, 20 and 60 odd respectively

Sorry I don't understand. What is what?

[Gordon R]

Quote

To answer your question, BASC, CA, NGO, GWCT etc are all encouraging a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. This is namely because of the evidence on impact on birds eating lead shot as grit - and that evidence is conclusive. For starters see GWCT info below.

Your post above seems to cut directly across the podcast, which concentrates almost wholly on the game market. By the way, steel shot will not stop birds ingesting shot - steel or lead.

[Old farrier]

I understand from some previous posts that some of the biggest driven shoots have switched to non lead cartridges in order to sell assured lead free game 

do you have a number on this please?

also if possible could you be kind enough to tell us what if any steps are being taken to remove the lead that is already on the ground and how they propose to remove it to prevent any ingestion by birds? 
 

 

iv asked this question because 

for over 20 years I’ve been along with everyone else using non toxic for ducks and geese 

yet every year I still hear the tens of thousands of birds die each year from ingestion of lead shot where is it coming from? 
So with my thinking if it’s a problem and going to be for the next 20 years 

it’s either got to be removed or it’s totally pointless expensive way of achieving nothing 

Edited April 25 by Old farrier

[Konor]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

To answer your question, BASC, CA, NGO, GWCT etc are all encouraging a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. This is namely because of the evidence on impact on birds eating lead shot as grit - and that evidence is conclusive. For starters see GWCT info below.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/advisory/lead-ammunition/

BASC does not support a lead ban.

Could you quantify that conclusive evidence ? It may add context and a sense of proportion to your statement.

[udderlyoffroad]

Christ on a combine.  6 pages of invective, bile, personal insults and attempted gotcha-ing of the laziest variety as practiced by Sky/BBC journalists.

I managed to listen to the podcast, over several short-ish journies in the car.  

No it wasn't a Today programme-style political interview.  Podcasts generally aren't.  They are long-form chats, where if you are trying to get something out of an interviewee, you are pursuing the 'catch more flies with honey than vinegar' strategy.

No the 2 interviewers didn't push back enough on some of the BASC rep's statements IMO, especially on the market providing affordable alternatives that are both non-tox and single use plastic free.  And by that I don't mean the 3 people who shoot 28 gauge 2 3/64" inch cartridges, I mean pigeon loads in 20 bore, or any load in .410.

But some of the complaints on this thread are just downright bizarre: 

• The interviewee, being from Essex, using 'estuary English', as oppsoed to, presumably RP?  Whatevvvva, mate.
• Someone picked him up on the use of the term 'soft iron'  - I'm no metallurgist, but I'm lead to believe that indeed, 'steel shot' is closer to soft iron in terms of its crystalline structure and/or chemical composition.
• I'm not sure he said anything factually incorrect about lead waterpipes either, if anything I think he downplayed how many lead water pipes are still installed in peoples' houses.  Potentially.  Because of course no-one knows the true figure.

And I'm sorry, but coming on this thread to say you don't "do" podcasts is a waste of everyone's time.

But of course all of this is entirely within BASC's remit as they had total editorial control of this third party podcast, right?  Right?

Anyway, it seems I've discovered another shooting-related podcast.  Beats listening to the inane celebrity-based drivel on the radio.

[8 shot]

47 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Sorry I don't understand. What is what?

What i am saying is we have been doing the same thing for the last, well me 25 or so years and my uncle way before then and the only limiting fact to Grey Partridge is predation ie. Red Kites and to a lesser extent Buzzards.

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks for the survey link - I will pass it onto colleagues.

Here is a table with estimates from BASC's response to last year's HSE consultation

For full context here is the response document:

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/BASC-review-of-HSE-Annex-15-opinion.pdf

You are entitled to your opinion - I don't wish to argue with you about your opinion. I think its a fantastic listen. You don't. No worries. Each to their own.

I was hoping for a table showing year by year the quantity of cartridges imported/uk manufactured using lead shot and the quantity of non toxic as a way of showing how successful the transition has been. 

Your table is just a best guess estimate and probably prior to the not insignificant increase in prices which is reducing consumption.

 

[Rewulf]

37 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Christ on a combine.  6 pages of invective, bile, personal insults and attempted gotcha-ing of the laziest variety as practiced by Sky/BBC journalists.

I think youre being very harsh on Conor here, hes not been THAT bad 

 

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Yes. I will have given a detailed response and referred to BASC website.

The original question was WHY didnt BASC give their membership a vote ?
This is a straight forward question, and please dont refer me to a link or BASC page, I want YOUR opinion, as you have stated you are 'just another member' on here.

[mellors]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

To answer your question, BASC, CA, NGO, GWCT etc are all encouraging a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. This is namely because of the evidence on impact on birds eating lead shot as grit - and that evidence is conclusive. For starters see GWCT info below.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/advisory/lead-ammunition/

BASC does not support a lead ban.

As it says there is no evidence of poisoning . 

It clearly states they have found lead shot amongst other things in ducks but no evidence of terminal poisoning as no carcass has been found to support it. 

Also states it passes through and is not ingested.

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 hours ago, Old farrier said:

I understand from some previous posts that some of the biggest driven shoots have switched to non lead cartridges in order to sell assured lead free game 

do you have a number on this please? No, I don't have a number.

also if possible could you be kind enough to tell us what if any steps are being taken to remove the lead that is already on the ground and how they propose to remove it to prevent any ingestion by birds? No plans on that as far as I know.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 hours ago, 8 shot said:

What i am saying is we have been doing the same thing for the last, well me 25 or so years and my uncle way before then and the only limiting fact to Grey Partridge is predation ie. Red Kites and to a lesser extent Buzzards.

Thanks for clarifying.

[JKD]

2 hours ago, Konor said:

Could you quantify that conclusive evidence ? It may add context and a sense of proportion to your statement.

It may surprise you that I, among others I suspect, would also like to see this "conclusive evidence". I can't figure out how any exact statistic can be reached for this. I haven't seen the countryside crawling with bods searching for dead birds to take back to the labs for investigation into ingesting lead shot as grit 🤔

I'm not taking sides here, just curious 🤷😉

[Konor]

7 minutes ago, JKD said:

It may surprise you that I, among others I suspect, would also like to see this "conclusive evidence". I can't figure out how any exact statistic can be reached for this. I haven't seen the countryside crawling with bods searching for dead birds to take back to the labs for investigation into ingesting lead shot as grit 🤔

I'm not taking sides here, just curious 🤷😉

JKD as far as I am concerned there is only one side on here and that includes all those who have posted , me ,yourself and including Conor , perhaps especially Conor. I’m hoping that we all have each others best interests at heart but without figures and open dialogue I struggle to understand the justification in going down the road BASC et al are leading us. I don’t think there has been any political promises to safeguard the continuation of the voluntary ban ,in many respects I think we are stuffed and the new woke green activist using social media will have a disproportionate impact on our sport all without scientific verification that our giving up lead shot use will have any impact at all. The personal insults angle is just a means to avoid confronting the concerns that we all probably share if we have the best interests of sporting shooting at heart and acts as a deflection from the issues we should be concentrating on.

[Conor O'Gorman]

26 minutes ago, JKD said:

It may surprise you that I, among others I suspect, would also like to see this "conclusive evidence". I can't figure out how any exact statistic can be reached for this. I haven't seen the countryside crawling with bods searching for dead birds to take back to the labs for investigation into ingesting lead shot as grit 🤔

I'm not taking sides here, just curious 🤷😉

I have just posted this in the other thread and hope it helps.

Lead shot is having an impact on birds that eat lead shot as grit. This is evidenced in various research papers. The 2023 HSE background doc contains references to most of the research. Here are some figures as outlined on the GWCT website:

Scientists estimate that millions of birds suffer from sub-lethal effects of lead shot every year throughout Europe³⁴. Research estimates suggest that between 30-60,000²² and 50-100,000¹ birds are likely to perish in the UK each winter as a direct result of lead shot poisoning. Long-term monitoring found that 8.1% of birds found dead between 2000-2010 had died from ingesting lead pellets^12,23. Some animals had ingested hundreds of pellets³⁴.

Records of autopsied birds from 1971-2010 showed that 1 in 4 migratory swans and 1 in 10 wildfowl exhibited lead shot poisoning as the cause of death^12,22. A total of 42% of whooper swans that underwent blood tests in winters between 2010 and 2014 also showed high levels of lead in their blood^12,20.

Scientists estimate that 1.5-3.0% of wildfowl overwintering in the UK each year die of lead shot poisoning¹.

Lead shot poisoning is difficult to quantify primarily due to the likelihood of under-estimation, although some over-estimation is possible. Lead ingestion could be more common than thought because pellets are only present for a short time before they absorb into the body. Lead shot poisoning can also present subtle, sub-lethal effects that are hard to notice⁴³ and result in wildfowl deaths being attributed to other factors¹². Birds may also consume lead pellets from other countries when they travel to and from their overwintering sites²³. However, research has shown that migratory wildfowl have high blood lead levels in mid-late winter when they are most likely to have been in the UK for several weeks. Given that blood lead concentrations tend to reflect exposures within 35–40 days of testing, it is therefore probable that most will have ingested lead shot in the UK¹².

It is important to remember that regardless of the number of wildfowl or other wildlife affected, lead is a harmful toxin that can cause great suffering and death. Any lack of studies providing hard data on lead shot poisoning does not mean that lead is not a serious and noteworthy issue for wildlife²².

Source: https://www.gwct.org.uk/advisory/lead-ammunition/effects-of-lead-on-wildlife-and-wildfowl/

[holloway]

11 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I have just posted this in the other thread and hope it helps.

Lead shot is having an impact on birds that eat lead shot as grit. This is evidenced in various research papers. The 2023 HSE background doc contains references to most of the research. Here are some figures as outlined on the GWCT website:

Scientists estimate that millions of birds suffer from sub-lethal effects of lead shot every year throughout Europe³⁴. Research estimates suggest that between 30-60,000²² and 50-100,000¹ birds are likely to perish in the UK each winter as a direct result of lead shot poisoning. Long-term monitoring found that 8.1% of birds found dead between 2000-2010 had died from ingesting lead pellets^12,23. Some animals had ingested hundreds of pellets³⁴.

Records of autopsied birds from 1971-2010 showed that 1 in 4 migratory swans and 1 in 10 wildfowl exhibited lead shot poisoning as the cause of death^12,22. A total of 42% of whooper swans that underwent blood tests in winters between 2010 and 2014 also showed high levels of lead in their blood^12,20.

Scientists estimate that 1.5-3.0% of wildfowl overwintering in the UK each year die of lead shot poisoning¹.

Lead shot poisoning is difficult to quantify primarily due to the likelihood of under-estimation, although some over-estimation is possible. Lead ingestion could be more common than thought because pellets are only present for a short time before they absorb into the body. Lead shot poisoning can also present subtle, sub-lethal effects that are hard to notice⁴³ and result in wildfowl deaths being attributed to other factors¹². Birds may also consume lead pellets from other countries when they travel to and from their overwintering sites²³. However, research has shown that migratory wildfowl have high blood lead levels in mid-late winter when they are most likely to have been in the UK for several weeks. Given that blood lead concentrations tend to reflect exposures within 35–40 days of testing, it is therefore probable that most will have ingested lead shot in the UK¹².

It is important to remember that regardless of the number of wildfowl or other wildlife affected, lead is a harmful toxin that can cause great suffering and death. Any lack of studies providing hard data on lead shot poisoning does not mean that lead is not a serious and noteworthy issue for wildlife²².

Source: https://www.gwct.org.uk/advisory/lead-ammunition/effects-of-lead-on-wildlife-and-wildfowl/

To be fair Conor anyone with a genuine interest in finding the facts could access all they need on the internet themselves ,but thankyou for posting it .

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, JKD said:

It may surprise you that I, among others I suspect, would also like to see this "conclusive evidence". I can't figure out how any exact statistic can be reached for this.

Its all good , the GWCT scientists have used 'estimates' and computer modelling to conclusively state that 'some' birds are affected by lead ingestion, and 'perhaps' some even die from it.
To back this up , they have used studies from RSPB funded scientists , and the famous Californian condor study, that has has cost $45 million so far , and needs a further $5 million a year to keep 150 birds in the wild.
Theyve banned lead use in their hunting grounds years ago, and the birds still lose at least 10 % of their numbers each year , because theyre starving !
So they breed them in zoos and keep reintroducing them, the funniest bit is that they have requested hunters to go out there and shoot more animals so the condors  can feed on them , using copper of course....

11 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Lead shot is having an impact on birds that eat lead shot as grit. This is evidenced in various research papers. The 2023 HSE background doc contains references to most of the research. Here are some figures as outlined on the GWCT website:

Scientists estimate that millions of birds suffer from sub-lethal effects of lead shot every year throughout Europe³⁴. Research estimates suggest that between 30-60,000²² and 50-100,000¹ birds are likely to perish in the UK each winter as a direct result of lead shot poisoning. Long-term monitoring found that 8.1% of birds found dead between 2000-2010 had died from ingesting lead pellets^12,23. Some animals had ingested hundreds of pellets³⁴.

Records of autopsied birds from 1971-2010 showed that 1 in 4 migratory swans and 1 in 10 wildfowl exhibited lead shot poisoning as the cause of death^12,22. A total of 42% of whooper swans that underwent blood tests in winters between 2010 and 2014 also showed high levels of lead in their blood^12,20.

Scientists estimate that 1.5-3.0% of wildfowl overwintering in the UK each year die of lead shot poisoning¹.

Lead shot poisoning is difficult to quantify primarily due to the likelihood of under-estimation, although some over-estimation is possible. Lead ingestion could be more common than thought because pellets are only present for a short time before they absorb into the body. Lead shot poisoning can also present subtle, sub-lethal effects that are hard to notice⁴³ and result in wildfowl deaths being attributed to other factors¹². Birds may also consume lead pellets from other countries when they travel to and from their overwintering sites²³. However, research has shown that migratory wildfowl have high blood lead levels in mid-late winter when they are most likely to have been in the UK for several weeks. Given that blood lead concentrations tend to reflect exposures within 35–40 days of testing, it is therefore probable that most will have ingested lead shot in the UK¹².

It is important to remember that regardless of the number of wildfowl or other wildlife affected, lead is a harmful toxin that can cause great suffering and death. Any lack of studies providing hard data on lead shot poisoning does not mean that lead is not a serious and noteworthy issue for wildlife²².

 

[JKD]

Smoke and mirrors springs to mind. Along those lines, I'm guessing that no-one really knows ? 🤷‍♂️🙃Estimates and guesswork can come up with some wonderful figures 🫣

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, JKD said:

Smoke and mirrors springs to mind. Along those lines, I'm guessing that no-one really knows ? 🤷‍♂️🙃Estimates and guesswork can come up with some wonderful figures 🫣

Which is no basis for the current situation.

[JKD]

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Which is no basis for the current situation.

Exactly ! I'm as confused as the next bloke/woman/it 🤔 But I'm NOT going to keep on,,,,,,,,,,,,, 😉

[TIGHTCHOKE]

11 minutes ago, JKD said:

Exactly ! I'm as confused as the next bloke/woman/it 🤔 But I'm NOT going to keep on,,,,,,,,,,,,, 😉

Good for you......