So our Country is broke

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, oowee said:

These are not loop holes. Divi's are normally separate from income and under legislation are treated separately. 

And being able to use legal means to avoid paying tax on earned income constitutes a 'loophole'.  It isn't "illegal", it's just that the legislation is not functioning as people wish and is giving a legal means to some to avoid tax due on others.  That's poor legislation.

I agree that the Gov't are ultimately 'responsible', but the leglislation that gives rise to the ability to avoid tax is written by the Treasury/HMRC who advise ministers and write the details.

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

And being able to use legal means to avoid paying tax on earned income constitutes a 'loophole'.  It isn't "illegal", it's just that the legislation is not functioning as people wish and is giving a legal means to some to avoid tax due on others.  That's poor legislation.

I agree that the Gov't are ultimately 'responsible', but the leglislation that gives rise to the ability to avoid tax is written by the Treasury/HMRC who advise ministers and write the details.

Yes I agree but in this instance the Tory government has declined to tackle the problem. It will be tackled (i understand) in October. 

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, oowee said:

in this instance the Tory government has declined to tackle the problem.

I'm not aware that they have 'declined to'.  I agree the problem is still there - and should be removed, but my point is that the legislation that enables earned income and dividend payments to be 'interchanged' was written poorly.

I am not an accountant, but earned income is remuneration for work carried out.  A dividend is a distribution of a company's earnings made to shareholders.

Legislation needs to be able to cope with these differences and 'close the loophole'.  Not being an accountant, I don't know how that is done in practice, but it should have been done.  The other issue being that earned income is subject to NI whereas dividends are not.

My underlying point is that the Treasury/HMRC make the detailed taxation legislation - not MPs and ministers.  It is massively complex - a lot of which was added pre Cameron and in Blair/Brown's time.  The whole thing needs 'sorting out' but I have suspicions that no one knows how to do this because they have painted themselves into a corner with the degree of complexity that is there.  The fact that "Tolley's Tax Handbook" runs to over 16,000 pages indicates that the whole system is grossly over complex.

[oowee]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

I'm not aware that they have 'declined to'.  I agree the problem is still there - and should be removed, but my point is that the legislation that enables earned income and dividend payments to be 'interchanged' was written poorly.

I am not an accountant, but earned income is remuneration for work carried out.  A dividend is a distribution of a company's earnings made to shareholders.

Legislation needs to be able to cope with these differences and 'close the loophole'.  Not being an accountant, I don't know how that is done in practice, but it should have been done.  The other issue being that earned income is subject to NI whereas dividends are not.

My underlying point is that the Treasury/HMRC make the detailed taxation legislation - not MPs and ministers.  It is massively complex - a lot of which was added pre Cameron and in Blair/Brown's time.  The whole thing needs 'sorting out' but I have suspicions that no one knows how to do this because they have painted themselves into a corner with the degree of complexity that is there.  The fact that "Tolley's Tax Handbook" runs to over 16,000 pages indicates that the whole system is grossly over complex.

Again I hear what you are saying. We will have to agree to disagree. It's not a loophole there are separate pieces of law. What is clear is that the Tories did not address the issue. Labour will address it ( i hope) and claim tax from thousands if not hundreds of thousands of very high earners currently exploiting the ordinary tax payer on PAYE. 

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

I get this all the time and they want to use Amex. Some even have their kids on the company pay roll, modelling for promo material, earning just enough to stay under the tax allowance. Making personal loans to their own business for cash flow, paid back with dividends. All legal of course. I can smile when they are complaining of the vat on the £20k a term school fees. 😁

I'd done it once myself prior when I had the Ltd Co. but actually took less money off everyone else.

In different groups on more than one occasion someone has just paid the bill as a gesture.

In that particular group I referred to earlier, I took my cash back on one occasion and insisted on paying my bit by card, as I have done since. Boils down to a matter of principle. Anyway, I digress.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

We will have to agree to disagree

Indeed - quite happy with that.  I have no problem at all with 'loopholes' being closed - but they should never have been there in the first place.

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

I'd done it once myself prior when I had the Ltd Co. but actually took less money off everyone else.

In different groups on more than one occasion someone has just paid the bill as a gesture.

In that particular group I referred to earlier, I took my cash back on one occasion and insisted on paying my bit by card, as I have done since. Boils down to a matter of principle. Anyway, I digress.

Hoorah for your principles, we need far more of that sort of thing.

14 minutes ago, oowee said:

Again I hear what you are saying. We will have to agree to disagree. It's not a loophole there are separate pieces of law. What is clear is that the Tories did not address the issue. Labour will address it ( i hope) and claim tax from thousands if not hundreds of thousands of very high earners currently exploiting the ordinary tax payer on PAYE. 

Well I do hope so, it really does need to be addressed properly

[Bigbob]

If this country is indeed broke how can we afford the reportedly 8 million a day on illegals ?. and i dont think Stamers the one to lessen that amount 

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Bigbob said:

If this country is indeed broke how can we afford the reportedly 8 million a day on illegals ?. and i dont think Stamers the one to lessen that amount 

We can't afford it. The last gov't did nothing lets hope Starmer can make a difference. 

 

[Bigbob]

Its going to take a hard government to sort it out and i dont think its him , How are they going to get rid of the illegals that's her never mind stop any more 

Why do we give second generation dole birds handouts they haven't contributed to the system 

[amateur]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

We can't afford it. The lefty civil servants and lefty lawyers introduced by Blair did nothing and actively impeded the elected government. Let's hope Starmer can make a difference. 

 

Corrected that for you.

[Bigbob]

So we left Brexit and the money we saved on that we now give to illegals 

[oowee]

8 minutes ago, amateur said:

Corrected that for you.

🤣 Of course they did. 

4 minutes ago, Bigbob said:

So we left Brexit and the money we saved on that we now give to illegals 

No, a few billion for migrants is small change when the cost of Brexit is running at 140 billion. These are the bills that are sapping the heart out of the UK. The cost of Brexit to the London economy alone (30bn) is nearly 4 times the cost of managing migrants for the whole of the UK. 

 

We need to focus on the big sums the big issues. 

[Mungler]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

🤣 Of course they did. 

No, a few billion for migrants is small change when the cost of Brexit is running at 140 billion. These are the bills that are sapping the heart out of the UK. The cost of Brexit to the London economy alone (30bn) is nearly 4 times the cost of managing migrants for the whole of the UK. 

 

We need to focus on the big sums the big issues. 

I read the latest report commissioned by Khan - it’s demonstrably partisan nonsense, especially the employment related ‘findings’ and the cost which is not an actual loss but an opportunity cost based entirely on what they say the economy would have done had we not had Brexit ie made it up. 

And the ‘don’t worry about the billions spent on immigrants, look at…..’. No, really, let’s look at the billions being wasted there. Oh no, let’s not bother, let’s cut pensioner winter fuel allowances instead 😆

I wonder what the cost of this Labour government will be…. 

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I wonder what the cost of this Labour government will be…. 

.....................Infinity...........................

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I wonder what the cost of this Labour government will be…. 

It will make the covid issue look like a Greenshield stamp.

[Mungler]

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

.....................Infinity...........................

I was just thinking I could make something up like like a bazillion trillion and then sell my report to Mayor Khan 😆

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

It will make the covid issue look like a Greenshield stamp.

Shhhhh don’t mention Covid - it takes the wind out of the remainers and they hate it.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

4 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I was just thinking I could make something up like like a bazillion trillion and then sell my report to Mayor Khan 😆

More than that.

[Mice!]

8 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Let me provide an example, I’ve been out in a group for dinner with pals who are business owners “fighting” over taking the bill and paying with their card whilst collecting cash from the rest of us. For a group of 6 splitting a £600 bill, how much do you reckon the business owner is making out of being at the mill? I’m paying cash taxed under PAYE, he’s having his meal paid for plus profit, effectively the rest of us are paying for his time being there with us.

I've never been earning enough to try and play this game, and I couldn't be bothered keeping receipts, that's why the big earners use accountants,  another cost and hassle. 

6 hours ago, oowee said:

No its a fault of the Tory govt. Labour will close it down. 

It was under the Tories that things got tightened up, otherwise I'd still be working as a contractor doing the same job I do now 🤣🤣

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

I've never been earning enough to try and play this game, and I couldn't be bothered keeping receipts, that's why the big earners use accountants,  another cost and hassle. 

It was under the Tories that things got tightened up, otherwise I'd still be working as a contractor doing the same job I do now 🤣🤣

You seem to be lumping all high earners in the same bucket. There are plenty high earners on PAYE. Here’s an example - CEO of a large betting shop / gambling group has a basic salary of £895k per year, on top of that is a bonus of up to 250% of base salary and a long term incentive program capped at a maximum of 450% of base salary. All PAYE, no accountant is saving him large amounts of tax.

Same for premier league footballers who are on another level compared to that.

[Weihrauch17]

6 hours ago, oowee said:

We can't afford it. The last gov't did nothing lets hope Starmer can make a difference. 

 

He will make it 10 times worse.  First month in he gives 90,000 illegals asylum, scraps the only possible deterrent with no alternative and gives thousands more Afghans the right to come and join family.  He has encouraged every single illegal in Europe to come here.  He is a disaster within a month on so many fronts.

Edited August 1 by Weihrauch17

[Rewulf]

13 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

He is a disaster within a month on so many fronts.

Im actually shocked how quickly labour have messed up, I thought maybe 6 months, a year ?

But straight out the starting blocks, we are more divided, looking at more problems than I ever expected.
If we leave out the things that are not directly attributable, but handled poorly, the winter fuel allowance, an expected attack on pensions, and caving in to the unions, labour have set themselves up for further strife.
Every government for the past 20 years has promised to get a handle on immigration, and every year goes by the problem gets worse, labour are not going to make it several magnitudes worse, and want a pat on the back for it.
We have a chancellor who didnt have a clue what the nations finances were, and probably still doesnt, a PM so out of his depth its beyond belief, his cabinet wouldnt look out of place at a midnight pub crawl in a deprived area, and about the same level of intellect.

[Newbie to this]

8 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

and caving in to the unions, labour have set themselves up for further strife.

You can say that again, reported on the news that GP are talking about striking. Got their eyes on a 22% pay rise.

Won't be long before everyone on the tax payer's £ will be looking for 22%

Edited August 2 by Newbie to this

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

You can say that again, reported on the news that GP are talking about striking. Got their eyes on a 22% pay rise.

Won't be long before everyone on the tax payer's £ will be looking for 22%

Why wouldnt they ? Alls fair in love and err public sector workers...

Winter of discontent Mk 2 coming ?

Like I say, astonishing how fast its all coming apart.
I blame the far right 

Edited August 2 by Rewulf

[Mungler]

If we think we’ve suffered some inflation so far, we ain’t seen nothing yet.