Trump

[old man]

It's possible if you lie back and think on, that Trump has got ideas from Putin about global expansion?

[Raja Clavata]

My prediction is that Trump will use Ukraine to try to get Putin less tied into China. There is quite a bit of material on multi polarity and given what Trump is suggesting with the Americas and Greenland it’s not much of a stretch to consider a future new world order where the US “looks after” the Americas, China the same with the East and Russia left to more or less do what it likes with Europe. Pretty FUBAR in my opinion but not as ridiculous as it seemed just a few years ago.

In such an order I assume the Middle East would be left as the area that gets further messed up, unless the Saudis become a regional power, which wouldn’t surprise me.

We in Western Europe can do something about it but only if we act quickly and in unison with our key partners.

[amateur]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

My prediction is that Trump will use Ukraine to try to get Putin less tied into China. There is quite a bit of material on multi polarity and given what Trump is suggesting with the Americas and Greenland it’s not much of a stretch to consider a future new world order where the US “looks after” the Americas, China the same with the East and Russia left to more or less do what it likes with Europe. Pretty FUBAR in my opinion but not as ridiculous as it seemed just a few years ago.

In such an order I assume the Middle East would be left as the area that gets further messed up, unless the Saudis become a regional power, which wouldn’t surprise me.

We in Western Europe can do something about it but only if we act quickly and in unison with our key partners.

Oh! You mean Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia and we are the proles, although, I am sure that GrayA and oowee would be members of the Outer Party.

2TK would, of course, be an unperson.

Edited Sunday at 11:21 by amateur

[12gauge82]

He was just starting to impress me, but Trump has gone too far with his criticism of Ukraine. Blaming them for being invaded and not doing a deal 😡. I get at some point the reality of what's achievable by Ukraine needs to be addressed, but to blame them for trying to defend their own country from an invasion is disgusting. How would trump feel if a foreign power was holding a state of the USA. 

[Dave-G]

I've not read the entire thread but it works for me that trump wanted Europe to pay their full NATO subscriptions or he'd drop out in his last term. I'm thinking he's now calling that bluff.

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

He was just starting to impress me, but Trump has gone too far with his criticism of Ukraine. Blaming them for being invaded and not doing a deal 😡. I get at some point the reality of what's achievable by Ukraine needs to be addressed, but to blame them for trying to defend their own country from an invasion is disgusting. How would trump feel if a foreign power was holding a state of the USA. 

Bit like Iraq and Afghanistan. How dare we paint them as the bad guys, they were the ones invaded.

Those in glass houses.

Now I don't pretend to know the ins and outs, and I'm not condoning Russia's actions. I don't know.enough and I am almost certain that Trump knows things we do not.

Just putting some perspective on our hypocrisy.

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

He was just starting to impress me, but Trump has gone too far with his criticism of Ukraine. Blaming them for being invaded and not doing a deal 😡. I get at some point the reality of what's achievable by Ukraine needs to be addressed, but to blame them for trying to defend their own country from an invasion is disgusting. How would trump feel if a foreign power was holding a state of the USA. 

This.

One thing Trump has done is do exactly what he told the US electorate he was going to do with regards to affairs in the US. This sadly distinguishes him from other politicians but does not extend to affairs outside of the US where he talks in incoherent riddles.

[den5008]

On 06/02/2025 at 17:09, ditchman said:

by the time chat bot reeves has finished with this country .....Trump will be able to buy this country for £1-14s-6d...

More like Tuppence aipnee

[12gauge82]

35 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Bit like Iraq and Afghanistan. How dare we paint them as the bad guys, they were the ones invaded.

Those in glass houses.

Now I don't pretend to know the ins and outs, and I'm not condoning Russia's actions. I don't know.enough and I am almost certain that Trump knows things we do not.

Just putting some perspective on our hypocrisy.

I totally agree, we went to Iraq on a pack of lies, Tony Blair should be in prison in my opinion. 

[Rewulf]

19 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

affairs outside of the US where he talks in incoherent riddles.

They might seem that way, but I believe the affected parties understand perfectly what he is saying/threatening.
Hes told zelensky in no uncertain terms the US wants a return on the previous administrations 'investment'
Yes hes insulted the green Tshirt, but some of those insults are justified, in retaliation zelensky has insulted back, and blocked/banned the use of Trumps Truthsocial network in Ukraine.
Musk is now going to pull the freely provided Starlink service for Ukrainian forces.

Zelenski needs to learn there are consequences to actions, and his big mate is no longer going to protect him from the playground bully.
Europe/ EU will follow suite shortly, as they realise that Ukraine is a lost cause and a money pit.
Does this mean Russia 'wins' ? I dont think it can be quantified like that, all I know is that zelensky under the guise of protecting his country, would happily see this war continue until there is nothing left to protect, and he would happily drag anyone else into it if he could.
Come the end of this, I dont believe he will end up living in Ukraine, he may not be living at all...
As I said yesterday, history will not be kind to him, whether thats deserved or not.

3 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I totally agree, we went to Iraq on a pack of lies, Tony Blair should be in prison in my opinion. 

And yet, hes a free and very rich man, still meddling in world geopolitics.
History is a funny thing, the righteous are often forgotten and vilified, the absolute evil scum are often to be found living very comfortable long lives.

[Raja Clavata]

46 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

They might seem that way, but I believe the affected parties understand perfectly what he is saying/threatening.
Hes told zelensky in no uncertain terms the US wants a return on the previous administrations 'investment'
Yes hes insulted the green Tshirt, but some of those insults are justified, in retaliation zelensky has insulted back, and blocked/banned the use of Trumps Truthsocial network in Ukraine.
Musk is now going to pull the freely provided Starlink service for Ukrainian forces.

Zelenski needs to learn there are consequences to actions, and his big mate is no longer going to protect him from the playground bully.
Europe/ EU will follow suite shortly, as they realise that Ukraine is a lost cause and a money pit.
Does this mean Russia 'wins' ? I dont think it can be quantified like that, all I know is that zelensky under the guise of protecting his country, would happily see this war continue until there is nothing left to protect, and he would happily drag anyone else into it if he could.
Come the end of this, I dont believe he will end up living in Ukraine, he may not be living at all...
As I said yesterday, history will not be kind to him, whether thats deserved or not.

If I recall correctly we started from a similar position on the whys and woes of the conflict back in 2022 but have clearly diverged. Let’s just beg to differ.

I tend to believe in the big scheme of things the US originally wanted this war more than Ukraine did. It remains to be seen if Trump really wants it done with or if he’s holding out to to bring Putin to his knees (metaphorically of course, not like the memes circulating where Trump is giving Putin head).

I do find it curious that Putin / Kremlin were not mentioned once in the above. Let’s not forget the conflict is primarily between Ukraine and Russia. At least for the time being.

[Rewulf]

25 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I tend to believe in the big scheme of things the US originally wanted this war more than Ukraine did.

I agree, but what does that tell you ?
So many people flatly refused to call it a proxy war, but war , whether proxy or not, shouldnt be entered into unless you have a better than even chance of actually winning it.
Without western assistance, Ukraine could not hope to prevail, even with the money, weapons and intelligence assistance from the west, they still arent winning it.
6 months ago, Zelensky outlined his 'victory plan' and aimed to retake ALL lost ground since 2014, nobody then told him that this was an unrealistic objective.
Times have changed.

26 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

it remains to be seen if Trump really wants it done with or if he’s holding out to to bring Putin to his knees

Economically it is no longer in the best interests of Russia or US/NATO to continue this.
The biggest losers are Ukraine obviously, and to a lesser extent, the EU.
Russia arent running out of money, missiles or men, so its not even an option to bring Putin to his knees.
I dont believe it ever was.

26 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I do find it curious that Putin / Kremlin were not mentioned once in the above. Let’s not forget the conflict is primarily between Ukraine and Russia. At least for the time being.

I didnt feel it necessary to be fair, I said years ago that Russia invaded for a reason, and whilst I got called a Kremlin poodle ect, and met with media driven drivel about 'Putins a madman' or its just a land grab to bring back the USSR, those voices are somewhat silent now.
You cant park a hostile power on someones doorstep and expect them to be fine about it, lines were crossed, and every action has a reaction.
Ukraine has suffered because of someones political ambitions, not the first time , and certainly wont be the last.

[Gordon R]

Ukraine was USA's Cuban crisis. Having a nuclear power on your doorstep. 

The main blame clearly lies with Putin as Russia invaded another country, under whatever guise. However, Biden almost invited them in and Zelensky rolled out the welcome mat by stating he intended to join NATO.

Whilst Trump has his critics, it all boils down to the USA saying they will not continue to bankroll Ukraine and Europe, without a return and Europe paying its fair share. It's hard to argue against that. Given the amounts involved and Ukraine's record for corruption, it would not surprise me to see Zelensky under investigation when peace does come.

PS - amateur - nice Orwellian touch.

 

Edited 14 hours ago by Gordon R

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

I agree, but what does that tell you ?
So many people flatly refused to call it a proxy war, but war , whether proxy or not, shouldnt be entered into unless you have a better than even chance of actually winning it.
Without western assistance, Ukraine could not hope to prevail, even with the money, weapons and intelligence assistance from the west, they still arent winning it.
6 months ago, Zelensky outlined his 'victory plan' and aimed to retake ALL lost ground since 2014, nobody then told him that this was an unrealistic objective.
Times have changed.

We were aligned from day one in the discussions on the fact it was a proxy war 👍

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Economically it is no longer in the best interests of Russia or US/NATO to continue this.
The biggest losers are Ukraine obviously, and to a lesser extent, the EU.
Russia arent running out of money, missiles or men, so its not even an option to bring Putin to his knees.
I dont believe it ever was.

You think Iranian drones and NK troops are purely for show?

I don't think there are any winners in this under just about any outcome, merely degrees of loss.

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

I didnt feel it necessary to be fair, I said years ago that Russia invaded for a reason, and whilst I got called a Kremlin poodle ect, and met with media driven drivel about 'Putins a madman' or its just a land grab to bring back the USSR, those voices are somewhat silent now.
You cant park a hostile power on someones doorstep and expect them to be fine about it, lines were crossed, and every action has a reaction.
Ukraine has suffered because of someones political ambitions, not the first time , and certainly wont be the last.

There were certainly reasons 🙂

You forgot to mention the stuff about Putin having days to live 😉 

We possibly don't quite agree on the list of who's political ambitions are the result of the suffering but at this stage it kinda matters not.

And finally, I think we may have a candidate for the understatement of the year based on another posters "Whilst Trump may have his critics"...

 

[Rewulf]

14 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

You think Iranian drones and NK troops are purely for show?

Thats the trouble with proxy wars, everyone with an axe to grind wants a slice of the pie.

[12gauge82]

9 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

And yet, hes a free and very rich man, still meddling in world geopolitics.
History is a funny thing, the righteous are often forgotten and vilified, the absolute evil scum are often to be found living very comfortable long lives.

Again I agree. Life certainly is far from fair and history is often written by the Victor!

[12gauge82]

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

So many people flatly refused to call it a proxy war, but war , whether proxy or not, shouldnt be entered into unless you have a better than even chance of actually winning it.
 

I'm not sure that your statement is correct. While going to war in unfavourable circumstances is a long way from ideal, sometimes there's no choice, or sometimes it's the right thing to do. 

Should the UK have allowed Nazis Germany to invade Poland unanswered at the start of WW2, or stayed out entirely? Our odds were certainly not good then, the UK basically stood alone against the Nazis war machine. 

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

 Our odds were certainly not good then, the UK basically stood alone against the Nazis war machine. 

 

And this time around the successive UK Governments are supporting the Neo Nazi war machine of Ukraine....... Churchill must be spinning in his grave.......

[welsh1]

46 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

 

And this time around the successive UK Governments are supporting the Neo Nazi war machine of Ukraine....... Churchill must be spinning in his grave.......

Weren't the nazis the ones who were ruled by a dictator and had a nasty habit of invading their neighbours,terrifying the civilian population with ther brutality and trying to dominate with their vast army?

Now which country does that ?

[Rewulf]

20 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Now which country does that ?

I think you're being a bit harsh on the Americans there 😂

 

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Should the UK have allowed Nazis Germany to invade Poland unanswered at the start of WW2, or stayed out entirely?

As I've said, the allies did absolutely nothing to stop Germany invading Poland beside a few threats.

Plus I'm sure there were plenty in government who wanted to stay out of it.

I'm glad we didn't, but we could easily be speaking German right now, we got lucky.

[welsh1]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I think you're being a bit harsh on the Americans there 😂

 

 

[12gauge82]

32 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I think you're being a bit harsh on the Americans there 😂

 

As I've said, the allies did absolutely nothing to stop Germany invading Poland beside a few threats.

Plus I'm sure there were plenty in government who wanted to stay out of it.

I'm glad we didn't, but we could easily be speaking German right now, we got lucky.

It was unfortunately too late for Poland and beyond our capability to do anything for them at that stage, the important thing is that the UK stood up and was counted, God only knows what the world would look like now if we hadn't. 

I believe we made our own luck. 

Back to Ukraine, I'm glad they stood up and have fought like hell, with a huge amount of help in weapons and money. I honestly didn't think they would last a week in the beginning. The loss of life has been horrendous on both sides, but like with all bullies, if you don't make them pay, they will not stop.